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Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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You guys are putting more effort into writing your arguments than you ever did with writing your posts in character.

Please, continue. If this is to be Melon's last argument, then at least it is his penultimate argument.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

Whoah. Wasn't sure what Lee meant until a moment ago, when I was scoping out the chat thread out to see the interaction between you and Innue.

I know how stressful arguments are. Must be a shit thing for one of your last (unless you come back) fights to be this much of a mess. What's more, it seems that I'll be your final opponent in the tournament. Right now, I feel pretty crappy about that. I want that grand battle to be one for the ages, not another shitfest.

I had a rough match with that elf dude a month ago, and we hassled each other like dogs (Immensely ironic that it was also about Slimy using cave rocks as weapons). In the end though, I made it clear that this stuff is only a part of the ol' fight writing experience. Despite what passes between us, I still consider you a brah. We are duelists of the written word, this sort of thing is natural, but what is said should only be taken with a grain of salt.

Spirited competitors may get heated up, but they should never let a quarrel go beyond the ring. So, how about we work to make sure that when both this fight and the tournament is over and done with, we've both had a good time?

I have an idea, a fair one. Whichever side the lens blacks out on could easily determine a victor, like a coin flip. But perhaps that is the answer. Let's have Innue flip a coin, heads the right side blacks out, tails the left.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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NO MY HUBRIS, I MIGHT HAVE BROUGHT ABOUT A PEACEFUL END!!! THIS IS THE WORST OUTCOME!!!
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Drifting Pollen
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NO MY HUBRIS, I MIGHT HAVE BROUGHT ABOUT A PEACEFUL END!!! THIS IS THE WORST OUTCOME!!!


*throws away popcorn* god dammit LeeRoy!
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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Hey don't worry about it, taking hiatus' is usually good for me and has worked in the past. Usually I take one when I start to feel reluctant to look into Arena fights because they've lost their enjoyment for me for whatever reason, often that's due to a gradual shift towards arguing and competition over story telling (I am incredibly competitive, even when I would rather not be, or perhaps I just get less interested in the arguments, also possible.) or just because I feel my writing is getting more and more forced and even worse than usual.

Also as arguments go this one is far from the worst, I've had some pretty legendary ones in the past. Unfortunately it's one of those disagreements which are pivotal to a fight, similar to me and Khan in the tournament, so an impartial decision is necessary. No matter how agreeable someone is, they're unlikely to turn down an opportunity to win, and unlikely to accept a significant chance of loss, based off the other's arguments.

The problem with your coin toss idea is that it would require me to abandon what I think is logical. It would be sort of if we have a coin toss to decide which of two arms were broken when only one arm was hit. I think either Pollen or Innue should look over the conflict, judge if more damage should be taken, and if they decide in that situation more damage should be incurred then a coin toss would be fair.

Also, if it weren't for the whole basket-ball move I don't see why you would be disappointed in the right side going down, all of the Mech's more powerful weaponry are on that side, so using them would be far more difficult.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

But the lens is a single target with one side blacked out, not a pair of far apart arms. I never mentioned favoring one part of it from the other when the blow struck. My biggest miff is that there was really no way to determine why it was the side that still lets Higan see Slimy. It is a matter of luck and physics which neither of us may precisely or rightfully determine.

Hence, a coin flip. I also know which circumstances are more favorable to Slimy, and require no advice. Especially when that advice comes from the one who thought it up in the first place and knows how to counter it.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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The damage to the right side was based off the Mech's optics in the reference picture. I believed slamming a large block of basalt (I believe you said as big as someone's head) down on top of the Optics shown would damage the protruding lens because it's higher up and has less protection. That was my effort at conciliation, because I personally doubted the lens could be damaged at all by blunt force from above, but I could just about justify that damage logically.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

Did I ever mention which lens I hit? No? Because I certainly don't recall aiming for the one on the right. It may be higher up, but the stone was not centered on it. And no matter how many times you say blunt force shouldn't cause damage, I will continually disagree based upon the strengths of my own character.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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Well you didn't really specify much of anything, your character just grabbed a big rock and slammed it down on top of the Mech. As you can see in the picture though, the rock would slam into the upper lens first, absorbing most of the shock, as the rock would essentially break on contact with the metal. If anything was going to break, it would be that upper lens.

You also have to look at the exact composition of the Mech's armour, which I hadn't bothered to mention up until now because I forgot all the nifty MBT research I did before making this character. Its armour is made up of titanium and depleted uranium with aluminium tiles worked in, it's based off Chobham armour, which is specifically designed to reduce the effect of kinetic impacts by displacing the energy over tiles. It's easy to imagine the Mech as just a big suit of armour with a man inside representing the internals, but it's not. The armour is incredibly advanced and designed to stop penetration from anti-tank rounds, even the Optics armour has incredibly high resistance. Any impact which is caught by the armour should have limited effectiveness, that's how the Mech is designed. No matter how strong your character may be, you would not expect it to penetrate the front of a tiger tank with a rock, and that's exactly what it tried to do. The only question is what shock would transfer through the armour, which considering its composition I believe would be minimal, and considering the Optics are designed for use in a vehicle that is used in warfare (and therefore expected to be affected by shocks, such as anti-tank rounds colliding with the Mech) I found it highly unlikely the Lens would shatter from an indirect attack.

Also, Innue has pneumonia so we might have to ask Pollen to have a look if we want a prompt decision.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

It's one thing to hit the broad side of a tiger tank, but an entirely different equation when the immense blow is so close to the fragile bits. Plus the rock is waaay heavier.

Regardless...

SIGHHHH....
Why do I have to be so nice?

Whatever. I'll just accept it so we can move on. After this though, I'm done being Mr. Softserve when it comes to iffy situations.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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I would still like an outsiders opinion if the damage I took was fair for future reference, the more I look at the actual physics of Chobham armour the more convinced I am the rock would have done nothing. The weight of the rock is insignificant compared to the sheer density of the metal it collided with.

@Drifting Pollen If you're not too busy and have any interest in this sort of thing, would you mind giving it an appraisal? Also, I'd rather have this decided fairly rather than Doc feeling like I owe him a favour for his benevolence.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

So now that I've given you an inch, you want the full mile. Damn. I regret editing out my last argument in favor of an attempt at being social.

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with that assertion. I think Slimy is easily strong enough to shatter both lens, even with a layer of metal on top of them.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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@MelonHead

So now that I've given you an inch, you want the full mile. Damn. I regret editing out my last argument in favor of an attempt at being social.

The more I think about it, the more both lenses should be screwed up and the more attention should be drawn to the metagaming.


I never said I was going to change the damage my character took, I don't edit my posts based off OOC knowledge unless a judge requests it. It's simply because I want an answer to satisfy my own curiosity, and the best I'm going to get is a judge's opinion.

This is an unranked fight, if you're wholly convinced I've meta-gamed against you feel free to quit with literally no ramifications, I'll let the fight die out with no conclusion. I can't be bothered to argue over the matter again.

However, what you don't get to do is act like a sanctimonious asshole for accepting only half blinding an opponent with one shitty attack who has let you have literally tonnes of opportunities to balance out the fight. I'll relay a few.

1. Not pressing every round that my character fired, despite your character's questionable ability to avoid them.
2. Allowing you to fight on your homefield, and edit in numerous terrain and environment advantages at will. Such as, a hill blocking line of site of the entrance of the cave, and a body waiting around to allow full regeneration.
3. Creating a dust cloud upon blowing up the cave entrance so as to prevent my character using night vision and INSTANTLY spotting the shit spot your character hid in. What sort of soldier doesn't know how to check his corners?
4. Firing blindly into the darkness and purposefully missing any vital spots, giving your character a massive three seconds to charge in.
5. Disregarding my own defence that was completely ignored in your advance, read again the sniper-rifle levelled to prevent your character doing exactly what it did, and you completely ignoring it.
6. Throwing the Mech in a fashion that allowed Slimy to easily disengage and escape through the tunnel if desired.
7. Not immediately shooting the shit out of Slimy when he lurked on top of the Mech's head, going for a grab instead (Higan's instinctual reaction, story reasons you know.)

But sure, accuse me of meta-gaming, only being out to win, hell not even playing my character realistically. I don't give a flying fuck.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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1. Slimy's speed and agility are as questionable as the mech's durability. I guess you like easy fights where opponents are not only without armor, but can't dodge as well.

1. I accepted a lopsided battle against a virtually indestructible machine, and you say giving my character (who weighs less than 1/30th of yours) a home advantage is generous? Get out of that closed casket world of yours and see the writing on the wall. Slimy is young David with his trusty stone, and Higan is Goliath, fated to fall.

3. Trying to hide the metagaming again. I knew I'd have to tell you to cut it out again.

4. I suppose you expect me to be grateful that Higan didn't just 360 no scope the hidden Slimy right off the bat, with no prior knowledge if its exact location. Do you read your own posts, or mine for that matter?

5. Uh, because the sniper rifle had just fired? Thanks for not breaking your own character's rules I guess.

6. I'm not playing your game, I'm playing mine. I choose my own actions, and their success speaks. Apparently not to someone much better at OOC complaints than actual roleplaying though.

7. Thanks for not metagaming? Jeez, you really seem to believe what you are writing.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@Drifting Pollen

Can you give a judgement on the fight? We need an unbiased, absolute solution to this standstill based upon posts presented both IC'ly and OOC'ly.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Drifting Pollen
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@Drifting Pollen

Can you give a judgement on the fight? We need an unbiased, absolute solution to this standstill based upon posts presented both IC'ly and OOC'ly.


I'm charmed that you trust me so :)

Give me some time, need to review all those walls of text you guys wrote.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@Drifting Pollen

Don't dig me too much. Pretend you have never seen either Melon or I before as you contemplate.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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It's not Slimy's speed and agility at question, but its sensory capacity.

The Machine is not so indestructible as it seems apparently, your character has already demonstrated the capacity to muscle its way through armour of the exact same thickness as the joints of the Mech. However rather than press your speed advantage and try for more attacks you insist upon maximum damage from the first? Why is that exactly? What a boring fight you seem to desire.

Meta-gaming would suggest Higan had absolutely no way of knowing that the creature was in hiding, I'm not a soldier, but I think even I could have guessed where Slimy would be hidden considering what greeted him upon entering the room. Here's my break down, as you seem unable to see how observational skills and things I literally state Higan as picking out in the battle can account for his actions.

1. He literally sees Slimy demonstrate the ability to disguise itself from Electric vision.
2. He walks into the most obvious 'I live here' room of all time and has plenty of ammunition, why wouldn't he expend it trying to flush the creature out?
3. He's a soldier, trained to check his corners as every soldier is, it's literally the first place soldiers soldier when entering a room, and you hid there. You know what Higan would have been more surprised by? If you had hid on the ceiling, directly above him.

No, you should be grateful I had him unnecessarily fire his sniper-rifle out of a cheery sporting attitude, he fired it to 'scatter the birds' so to speak. He could have just have easily have sprayed the room with chain-gun fire and blasted a hole through Slimy as he charged.

No, you misunderstand. The Sniper-rifle is a massive metallic pole and the Mech is weighty as hell and super-strong, he literally pointed it at Slimy with the intent of warding him off physically, and you completely ignored the impediment and flew past it. Considering the ground Slimy had to cover his speed and agility was not sufficient to warrant completely ignoring the move, and the distance had to be significant, as he avoided the explosion from the anti-tank round a few moments before. Here's my post where I graciously accept you completely ignored the defence and carried on. http://www.roleplayerguild.com/posts/3381249

Their success speaks only of your own lapse into meta-gaming, whereby Slimy carried out a move completely different to its original objective of climbing up the Mech's back, almost as if it read Higan's mind. Even you had to accept you'd bullshitted that move and had the tail take damage, even though it probably should have been Slimy's actual body.

I've already explained how Higan knew where Slimy was going to be quite conclusively. Though you obviously ignored that argument, as you have proven to do whenever you can't think of a retort. To re-iterate, he threw the Mech backwards, cutting off Slimy's hiding spots, he saw it on the Mech's leg, he knew it was still there, there was only one spot remaining if Slimy was on the Mech at all. If the chain-gun had simply kept firing Slimy would have been wiped off the top of the Mech the moment the hand was in position, but I decided to go for a grab for reasons already mentioned.

Try harder, troll harder, troll faster.
Hidden 9 yrs ago Post by MelonHead
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<Snipped quote by Doc Doctor>

I'm charmed that you trust me so :)

Give me some time, need to review all those walls of text you guys wrote.


I'd ignore the walls of text for the most part, the crux is just how much damage the Optics should take from Doc's attack. Though factoring in the circumstances surrounding the attack may also be relevant.
Hidden 9 yrs ago 9 yrs ago Post by Doc Doctor
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@MelonHead

Slimy just running was getting boring, and I figured that you wouldn't underestimate my character's abilities. How wrong I was.
----
And yet, how convenient it is that Higan can pick out where Slimy is all the time, even when his technology doesn't account for it? Military training is a poor excuse for Higan's first fired shot in the cave to be at Slimy. That graze would have attracted the anomaly radar. Somehow I reckon that if Slimy had been hiding inside of his bone throne, Higan would have thought it suspicious and blown it up first thing.
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Didn't I make it clear how agile Slimy is? Of course it had avoided your briefly described "warding" with just as much descriptive effort. It's a semi-bullet timer with skill that puts Spiderman to shame. It's been having anti-material rounds thrown at it throughout the entire match, and an oversized poker wielded by something with the hand speed of a human can touch it?
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Uh, so now you are trying to say I've metagamed? I won't even debate there. I'll just encourage any readers to look at what you've said and think for themselves. I honestly don't know how you can do this with a straight face, considering the whole Anomaly Radar fiasco.
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You trying to predict a victory is futile. "I could have done this, be glad I didn't do that."
Well you didn't, so it's not up for debate.

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