[OOC] Running and Gunning - Higan Vs. The Magna Pater

[MelonHead]

@MelonHead

Throughout the match I've been trying to avoid starting up OOC business. I always try to. But now, I have a piece to say. I highly doubt that the occular thing is tough enough to not be hindered by the blow. Even if the metal is too hard to dent, the shock would obliterate the lens, bulletproof or not.

@Doc Doctor

Actually it literally is, I pretty clearly stated in the sheet it has a shock resistance of 100mm RHAe value, in layman terms it has the same resistance as the front armour of a tiger tank. If you look at the reference picture your creature chose a poor method for striking at it, as its protected from above. Unless you're now stating it swung wide to hit it from the front, in which case we're back to the grab situation and how it somehow failed.

Taking any damage at all from a rock was really my decision, as the rock would have no chance of being as hard as the armour your character smashed directly at, nor would it be an effective way of by-passing the armour to hit the bullet-proof lenses, as it would be too fat to impact the lens directly.

Despite the fact that it would literally do nothing however, it is still going to impact the Optics, and has already.

[LeeRoy]

*Pulls up a beanbag chair and whips out a bucket of popcorn.*

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

You are missing the point. The metal plating is 100mm, not the glass, and even if the metal doesn't dent the shock can transfer to the lens. The force of the blow doesn't just magically dissipate, Newton's law and all. The rock does not need to hit the lens directly to fuck it up.

It's nice that you can decide if and when it is convenient to take damage depending on the circumstances, but I'd scarcely encourage adding that on top of how Higan also boasts the favor of the Lucky Guess Goddesses. With all its strength and while holding the hardest naturally found object for many miles around, Slimy failed to trouble even the weakest spot on his opponent. A little fuzziness and black patches very conveniently appearing over the side that Slimy isn't on is scarcely an inconvenience, especially when Higan can make up for the slight loss in sight by just turning. Why does turning matter if Shash is on his body? Slimy can't get down without being shot, and is now without a way to inflict any damage unless he can get away.

I know I asked for this match, and having Slimy run, hide, and breed was the initial plan, and it is to be expected that it would be one-sided given the circumstances. Invincible armor isn't too big of a deal I suppose, and neither is having the guy inside be unusually good at guessing hiding spots. The instances of Lady Luck kissing his fanny are just a bit too much though.

[LeeRoy]

Someone who can actually argue on the same level as Melon is a sight to behold. Not like Khan who just fucking bails for months at a time when they're proven wrong.

[MelonHead]

'Not the glass, and even if the metal doesn't dent the shock can transfer to the lens.' No, that's not how armour works, if impacts were carried into the cockpit, Higan would die from anti-tank rounds, the force is deflected away from vitals, that's literally the entire point of armour of all kinds.

'The rock does not need to hit the lens directly to fuck it up' Yes it really does, as I keep referring to the reference picture the armour plating on top of the lens is literally designed for this very purpose, if it could be completely destroyed by a monster with a rock bashing on top of the armour it would be the least combat applicable lens in the universe. It's also nice that you can choose to ignore attacks until convenient, such as when Slimy carried out his rock attack in the face of a grapple while being thrown about by the Mech, dodged it, and then tried to dive through the arm.

It's not really my fault you chose an ineffective attack. Slimy presumably has long sharp claws or could have picked up a bone from the ground, something sharp and thin with which to by-pass the armour and ram directly into the lens, you essentially brought a hammer to surgery.

Actually, I decided that the right of the lens would be damaged based off the reference picture, you should check it out. You obviously haven't yet. Though the damage is really no more convenient than

1. Slimy predicting the Mech's wall/scrape defence and immediately moving to the outside of the left leg, counter to its previous movements of grappling the right leg and diving underneath the Mech.
2. Slimy having a half eaten corpse ready to heal all damage caused by the expenditure of over half the Mech's ammo.
3. Slimy having an intimate knowledge of battle mechs and their weak-spots, despite its echo-location making it highly doubtful it could discern the lens at all.
4. And finally, Slimy's infinitely changing body size, that makes it capable of waltzing around the Mech without anything pesky like logic getting in the way.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Except when a hard blow to a shield breaks the arm behind it? Of course there is a limit, and you are ignoring it.

I don't recall Slimy being thrown around, and I specified just why he avoided being grabbed. Your answer to that? Simply pretend what I said doesn't exist and continue thinking Higan's blind, amazingly timed lucky grab was perfect. Are you ignoring things again? Yes. Let's see if in your next point you ignore something else that had been already laid out.

Not your fault I chose to make an ineffective attack? That's right, I already had taken responsibility for that in my last O.O.C post. I know I chose to fight underdog style, but don't think waving that fact around will make this puppy roll over.

You don't even have the word "lens" in your last post, and yes it is very convenient for you.

1. That's not called prediction, it is called reaction, and it did not "counter" itself.

2. That was to make up for how your character somehow whittled up an "anaomoly radar" to rofl-find Slimy and nullify any advantages he could have had without letting me know.

3. You doubt the potency of Shash's echo location?

4. Look up what the square-cube law is. Now add that to a greasy bat-snake that can contort its frame through any gap the size of its head.

[MelonHead]

1. Shields are not armour, they are a tool, despite that they still mimic the usefulness of armour. Historically it was rare for a shield to be held face on, but at an angle, so blades and other heavy strikes glance off the surface. Same element is in play here.

2. You don't recall the Mech literally flinging itself backwards into the wall again? Do you think that would make moving around easy?

3. Higan's grab was pretty intuitive, there's only one vulnerable point on his Mech, he made a grab for that exact area and threw the Mech's weight backward, your character somehow attacked that same area (while overextending something fierce, unless Slimy is a master of rock-fu) and ducked under the grab. (how that prevented its arm from being snatched, I do not know, presumably you just ignored that the grab was designed to catch whatever part of Slimy was overextended.)

4. Actually your ineffective attack was just a poor move on your part, allowing for Slimy's knowledge of the Mech's weakpoint you should have used a better tool, as I explained. If you had struck the optics directly rather than trying to smash it through the armour we wouldn't be having this conversation.

5. Why would I suddenly start using the word lens suddenly? The picture of what the Mech's optics look like are handily shown in my reference picture, it was never hidden. I'm just using the word lens now to point out what should have been targeted.

And your counter

1. Making that move based off reactions alone is even more unbelievable, it did in fact counter itself. You quite clearly had Slimy wrap itself around the right leg and launch itself forward through the legs, it then completely reversed that momentum to crawl around the left leg and round the outside instead. It's momentum would be naturally carrying it towards the right leg because that was what it wrapped around, and certainly not the complete opposite direction.

2. Actually, my character's Computer Systems with their ability to analyse materials are quite clearly listed, not to mention the numerous vision modes it holds. If you had not lied about your character's initial location I wouldn't have even needed the anomaly radar, as the Electric vision was perfectly suitable and would have detected your character immediately had I any knowledge of where it was in the forest.

3. Obviously, echo-location does not allow one to discern the nature of objects, only the rough shape. How your character knew the slight protrusion on the top of the Mech was a 'window' is really anyone's guess.

4. It certainly seems to be, considering it's actually longer than the Mech is tall it's doing a good job at tucking all its body parts in places most convenient for it.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

1. Circular reasoning.

2. Thought you meant something else.

3. The head was the nearest target.

4. Thought you knew about Newton's Law. Circle back to inquiry #1 and repeat.

5. Circular reasoning.

Counter Time...

1. Nice try. Saying that it launched itself "through the legs" as if it had been intending to pop right out the other side. I wrote that its goal was to reach Higan's undercarriage. Its momentum would cease as it met the leg. Are you misinterpreting my own posts? Cut that out, I don't dig that.

2. If Shash had started in his lair with Higan nowhere in sight, the fight would have been over then and there. I decided to not be cheap. What a reward I earned, huh? You still should have put that in the profile beforehand. Perhaps Slimy might suddenly explode with metal-melting laser farts.

3. Slimy's senses are as sharp as Higan's armor is strong. Sound resonates differently with glass than it does metal. Acoustics and all.

4. Yeah, because it is fast.

I can see we'll get nowhere fast this way, and despite my opinion that Higan should be utterly blind right now, I'll settle for meeting you halfway. Higan can keep half of his vision, but on the opposite side that you initially chose.

[LeeRoy]

*Gasps* You mean to tell me that the things that Melon complains about the most, are the acts that he himself commits?

[MelonHead]

*Gasps* You mean to tell me that the things that Melon complains about the most, are the acts that he himself commits?

@LeeRoy

I only complain about illogical actions LeeRoy. Nothing the Mech has done has been unbelievable or even particularly complicated. The only argument Doc has is that somehow by smashing a rock down on top of armour the lens underneath should be destroyed. I've explained pretty clearly that the armour is harder than the rock and the impact would be deflected away. Rather than counter this Doc used a flawed example and then gave up entirely. But still somehow expects me to be convinced? I have every right to dictate how the Mechs is affected. I chose for the raised right hand side lens in the reference picture to be damaged because it made the most logical sense.

Also I'm not entirely sure you know what circular reasoning actually means Doc. So to clarify, it means starting an argument with the conclusion, or rather, using the conclusion as evidence. I'm going to relay my two points again so you can understand.

1. Shields were historically held at an angle to deflect the shock of blows away from vital areas, the same concept applies to the armour of my Mech and all armour in general. This is evidence for the conclusion that the lens would not be broken. There is nothing circular about this reasoning, learn the term before using it as a cheap argument technique.

Now an example of circular reasoning

The lens would not be broken by the rock therefore the rock can't break the lens.

5. I did not use the word lens in my post because it had no bearing on the writing, which is artistic as much as it is practical. I also fail to mention wiring, electronics, micro-chips, joints and all manner of other details which are taken for granted for the sake of enjoyable reading. However, as we are specifically discussing the ins and outs of the Optical system, explaining that the lens is front facing and covered in armour is now important. Explain to me, pray, how this is 'circular reasoning'.

[MelonHead]

There's not much point arguing the other factors. I already allowed you to get away with them despite not being wholly convinced they were legit. Though you might want to remember I never dictated to you at any point what damage you should take. I could just as easily question the amount of UN debilitating wounds from 40mm rounds your character has sustained. In reality it would probably have destroyed your characters body with a single hit.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

It's circular reasoning because every time I answer your arguments, you say I'm wrong and bring up the same points that I've already responded to.

Now are you drawing forth every little potential complaint that you can imagine to discredit me? Go on then, tell me how my character should be in pieces after having been grazed by the bullets. Wait... Go back and read more closely. I was careful to only describe the damage each round inflicted as it passed near instead of specifying that it was an outright hit, just in case you felt like bringing up how even the shock from a graze can screw Slimy up. The one time a bullet did definitively touch it was when I let you have your way when Slimy was in flight. It lost ribs and a wing, and had its guts poking out.

"Silently the beast ducked, the round passing so close the monster could feel the heat of it on the tips of its ears."

"It was getting clipped left and right. An ear gone in the blink of an eye.
There goes a patch of skin. A rock dug up from a round smashing into the ground ahead thwacked it on the forehead."

"The rifle round nearly hit its target, opening a small furrow where its left ass cheek would be if it had ass cheeks."

How's that for foresight? Now if we are done beating around the bush, how about my proposal?

[MelonHead]

That's not what circular reasoning is, at best you could argue the argument is cyclical, though fully of your own volition because you ran out of counter-arguments. The burden of proof is with you, as they say, you're the one suggesting I have to take a certain amount of damage, I've calmly explained why the attack was inefficient to do any more damage than I said.

I'm not telling you what damage you should take, as I've already explained, though the amount of 'near misses' and 'grazes' your character has incurred makes it somewhat ironic that you insist a poorly decided upon attack should do critical damage to my character's Mech.

I've already told you what I think of your proposal. The Optics are not destroyed outright, and after looking at the reference picture the right side is more vulnerable and therefore took the brunt of the 'shock' you were talking about. Therefore the vision to the right of the Mech is damaged, not that it matters in the slightest as you've put your character into a situation where it will die by literally diving into the Mech's loving arms.

If you cannot accept the damage I've decided to incur then we have two choices, you can quit, or we can find an impartial judge who can decide what damage should logically be incurred after we explain the situation. I'd recommend Pollen, if they're not too busy.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

Funny you should be talking about burden of truth. You've got a lot more to account for than I do, not that you'll believe me when I say that. You just keep tossing the same baloney over and over, and I am refusing to play your game by repeating myself. You calmly explained and I calmly debunked.
Imagine having a telescope. Say you took it outside and gave the top part just above the lens a hard blow with a brick. Yes, I know the difference in toughness. What is a telescope compared to a mech? Just like how a dude with a brick is incomparable to a six-hundred and fifty pound eldritch beast with a chunk of basalt the size of your head.

It's only a poor attack in your opinion. I say it's a good one, and that is where we truly differ in this argument. Funny thing that you should be talking about my character not taking much damage though, considering yours hasn't been so much as scratched. Yeah, I know. Not your fault, not your problem.

You haven't read my proposal yet? Go back and check my post where I point out all the instances of circular reasoning. It's at the bottom.

As for the trusty old Judge's Decision victory, I could roll with that. After you see my proposal we'll decide on either a judge or a mutual agreement.

[MelonHead]

I've already read your proposal and said what I think of it. I'm not going to disregard logic and take unrealistic damage to make things more convenient for you. I've asked Innue to take a look, so hopefully you can accept their decision one way or another.

You haven't debunked a damn thing, you're just repeating the same conclusion with really poor analogies. A good attack, as I explained, would have been to try and impact the Optics directly, rather than hammering on the top of the armour like a caveman and attempting to outstrength a mechanical walker. The only description I gave in regards to the shock resistance of the Optics is the armour value of the front of a Tiger tank. So how's this analogy, take your rock and slam it into a tiger tank and come back to me with the results. Not to mention, the size of the rock would just count against it, you should look into pressure and how it works. In fact, I never really said anything other than that about the strength of the Mech's Optics, so for all intents and purposes that's how hard it is to break. Your analogies about glass are completely irrelevant, as Ramor is not earth and their materials are not the same.

The Mech literally has been scratched, now you're just lying. Despite how woefully ineffective I suspected the attack would be it still wiped out the protruding lens you can see in the reference picture, which is why the Mech is now blind on its right side. You just refuse to accept this damage because without complete blindness your creature is dead, because you decided to dive through the Mech's arms. If you had carried out a sensible retreat you could have exploited the damage you did do. Instead, you've decided to argue for more damage, congratulations, you're just as bad as me, if not worse.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

So basically you just repeated yourself again, ignored my entire post save for the analogy, twisted it around and took it out of proportion so that it looks like I make no sense, and then claimed victory.

Didn't I already point out the futility of this, or are you intent on going around in circles? Fine, whatever floats your boat. I think my attack was good enough to fracture the lens (because of how shock travels, and not through a magical metal that somehow absorbs all force). Slimy is incredibly strong, basalt is very hard, and there is no way the lens can survive having all of that crash down directly on top of it. Your "scratch" ever so nicely works in your favor. You've coasted by on metagaming throughout the entire match, but I don't suppose you informed Innue of those little tidbits, huh? Adding things to your character after the fact without putting it on the profile and not telling me, arguing over my own character's capabilities (which are in fact all in the profile), having your character repeatedly "guess" or "anticipate" where mine is hiding with perfect timing and precision, and having the one attack Slimy landed on the mech's greatest weak point block out a paltry half of Higan's vision. That last one doesn't sound bad? I should mention then that the half which is blacked out isn't the one Slimy is on, so Higan is now in the most fortunate position of being able to easily trap and kill it, as there is little way left for it to escape. The moment of truth was that mighty blow it struck, and you seem to think the entire set of results is up for grabs by Lady Luck, who happens to be in your service.

Momma Mia.

[MelonHead]

Innue is perfectly capable of reading everything for themselves and coming to their own conclusions, as would be the only suitable way to deal with the situation.

Yeah, my character -really- guessed where yours was, evidently, hence why he started spraying the entire room with chain-gun rounds and fired blindly into the darkness. In actuality, I saw no reason why your character wouldn't be painfully obvious upon walking in the room with night vision, hence I created an entire situation involving dust and rock to prolong the fight. Other than that, I fail to see what complaints you have surrounding meta-gaming, everything you've done has been in plain sight of the Mech's vision.

I already explained how the 'anomaly' ability my Mech was using is obviously linked to its listed ability to analyse materials, which is quite clearly indicated in the CS. It's no different to your character having a wide range of knowledge about enemies, I don't remember you stating everything your character had experienced in the past, yet you attempted to use it as a defence by referencing a past fight. You're under no obligation to explain every single way you can use an ability, only give the general gist of what it is and the fact that your character has it. Imagine if a pyromancer had to describe every single type of fire it could manipulate, what shapes, etc, that would be ridiculous. Not to mention, the anomaly ability barely benefits me and is far less effective than the Electric vision the Mech clearly has, indeed I only used it at all as a story element.

You say the one attack, but you mean the first attack. There was nothing stopping you carrying out a tactical retreat and launching another offensive, you don't see me crying that my first 40mm round didn't paralyse your creature and leave it easy for my Mech to eliminate, because I don't dictate to people what damage they -should- take. It's not a right one has in T1 Eden Era fighting.

And finally, though convenient that the Mech is not blinded on its left side, ultimately the damage sustained I have judged based upon the reference picture. The right hand side would take the brunt of a blow from a massive rock, because it is higher, and therefore that is the side that is blinded. Once again, half blinding an opponent with your first attack that was far from optimal and based upon a lot of fortunate circumstances (picking up a rock while climbing up a Mech and avoiding being smashed into the wall for one, avoiding the grab another) I hardly feel you have a right to dictate that more damage should be sustained.

[Doc Doctor]

@MelonHead

I never said Innue wasn't. But I digress, I can scarcely believe what I'm reading. This is ridiculous. Higan's very first shot in the room was directed at exactly the place where Slimy was hiding. When he reached behind his back, it was with excellent timing and precision, despite him not knowing where or when Slimy would attack. That's like Gonad turning his back on an opponent, and when they swing a sword at his head, he goes, "Hruh, wait! Head of Gonad is where brain is!" and blocks it without looking. Are you joking?

"Anomoly Detection" was NOT indicated in the CS at all.

Yes, my character uses experience to fight.

Cute, a tactical retreat. You mean Slimy dodging bullets, and you putting up an OOC ruckus because it shouldn't be able to do that at mid-range. You still meta-gamed, stop trying to shift the perspective.

Without the Anomaly Vision, Slimy would have been able to run rings around Higan. It was a huge change you made and forced me to adapt my character's whole fighting style. A direct confrontation with a strong enemy is something Slimy prefers to avoid, but the Anomaly Vision ruined nearly all of its options. I'm a pushover most of the time though, so letting you do that is on my shoulders.

As for the damage thing, that can be abused on the flip-side. I don't set damage in stone either, but there is a limit to how much bull I will ignore.

[MelonHead]

Another laughably bad analogy, you sir are a master of reductio ad absurdum.

'Higan's very first shot in the room was directed at exactly the place where Slimy was hiding.' No it wasn't, if your character had remained completely still the shot would have barely grazed it, as I quite clearly stated. This would have incurred no cost, as your character can take 40mm rounds grazing it completely un-phased.

'When he reached behind his back, it was with excellent timing and precision, despite him not knowing where or when Slimy would attack.' You might want to re-read Higan's actions, as he is very aware of his Mech's vulnerabilities and took steps to meticulously cut off your character's options. As you are evidently unable to see them, I will lay them out quite clearly for you.

1. Slimy breaks past his guard and gets behind him, he dives and cuts off any ability to remain on his back.
2. Slimy is forced to reveal itself by zipping around to the front of the Mech in order to remain on its body.
3. Higan throws the Mech backwards, effectively cutting the back off again as a realistic place to remain.

Now tell me Doc, if Slimy is not obviously in view of the Mech, where pray tell would he be if he were on the Mech at all?

'Yes, my character uses experience to fight.' Apparently, your character uses experience as a lol-excuse for avoiding attacks, mindless of logic or sense.

I've already explained that I took some liberties with the Computer Systems description of being able to analyse materials, though it's hardly an unbelievable stretch. Also, I would have happily removed the ability if you wanted, of course, the fight would have been over then and there as for story purposes I would have had to have Higan return to Ramor and bring nukes to decimate the planet, as is protocol. The idea that Slimy would have been able to run rings around Higan is ultimately laughable however, anywhere in the forest he was at the mercy of the Mech and its electric vision. As you say so, that's entirely on your shoulders, I warned you going into the fight it would be difficult and beyond your character's ability.

'Cute, a tactical retreat. You mean Slimy dodging bullets, and you putting up an OOC ruckus because it shouldn't be able to do that at mid-range. You still meta-gamed, stop trying to shift the perspective.' So all your complaining is due to the belief that your character will be shot at, good to know. In actuality, when I say tactical retreat I meant doing something smart and original, such as leaping off the back of the Mech and onto the wall, or something equally unexpected and tactically advantageous. Not that it matters, your character is never getting to the ground at this rate, because you decided to dive right into its arm on the sole assumption that it would be completely blinded. Sort of a risky tactic isn't it.

You don't get to dictate what damage your opponent takes in T1 Eden Era, it's incredibly bad form and exceedingly rude. Your attack was not a perfect one, so it did not incur maximum damage, that is all the reasoning required behind it. Going into the actual physics of the attack is hardly in your favour however, as the Rhae value of the Optics are clearly stated, and that rock simply lacks the energy and hardness to rupture equipment with that significant resistance.

Anyway, I'm leaving this up to a judges decision, arguing isn't as fun as it used to be and you're not really broadening my horizons with any ground breaking remarks or evidence, so I hardly feel swayed to your sentiment that a certain degree of damage must be taken.

[Doc Doctor]

Edit: See latest post.