[OOC] Divinity Vs Dazsos!

[MelonHead]

Well, there has been one judgement in this fight, it was carried out assuming T1 Eden was being used (which is, after all, the default ruleset here.) That judgement benefited Dazsos earlier and he accepted it, so the way I see it you really have no choice but to continue using that rule set. It would be grossly unfair to change the rules mid-way through, after an issue had already been resolved using it.

Though, as I might have already said (or maybe I was just thinking it.) there were countless issues with this fight from the outset. The CS's weren't properly defined, the rules weren't decided upon, I'm not really sure this should constitute a ranked fight any more.

[Innue]

So what I'm understanding is that there are little to no rules actually being enforced here? I naturally assumed T1 Eden was the default ruleset, which is why I Continually quoted it since we hadn't established one of our own. Merely stating other places interpreted the rules in different ways doesn't strike me as a really convincing defense for not having any way of restricting actions. You say his actions don't 'neccessarily' constitute preps, but I can't find any conceivable reason why not if we are following the 'prep as many things as you want' logic. Do preps also not take a turn to mature, too? I have no way of knowing until it comes up.

If T1 Eden wasn't at all factored in your decision from earlier, then I am very boggled by whatever system is actually in place for yor judging.

I'm not really sure how I feel about continuing on a basis that allows for simultaneous prepping with little to no recourse. I have not been abiding by whatever system you two clearly have worked out, and to be honest, it is leading to a serious case of combat apathy.

If we are supposed to be continuing under incredibly nebulous, vague rules (or lack thereof), then I will be backing out of this fight. I will post an 'exit post' for Crystal/Corban, since I hate leaving fights as voids.

Edit: Regardless of what happens, I thoroughly enjoyed myself despite the hiccups!

@Divinity

It is on you two for establishing incredibly poor fight parameters when you started, and frankly, if we wanted to be super strict about everything, a lot of stuff both of you had done probably wouldn't have flown under original Eden Era rules (I'd have to honestly reread in close detail). Additionally, even they did not necessarily discount the possibility of multiple preps depending on the character (it was the generally accepted principle for most characters, especially at lower tiers). It was done both with the original Eden Era rulests on both the forums they originated on AND on the chat rooms that had a lot do with shaping them.

I'm not even saying we need to deviate from those rules, I'm just saying a super strict interpretation of them isn't acceptable. Seriously, chill. Everyone's been treated equally and there hasn't really been any major violations that hadn't been in scope of the fight FROM BOTH OF YOUR CHARACTERS.

I'm also not saying you can prep as much as you like (FYI lines like this kind of irk me). What Daz was describing was spells that were basically 'instant cast' which BOTH OF YOU HAVE DONE.

And actually, you worked out the damage from earlier with Melon using them. I just agreed from a strictly logical standpoint, independent of the Eden Era rules, you would have taken damage.

[Dazsos]

Knees deep in pixel grime, through struggle, arguments, how often spit from cusses had to be wiped off many a shirt... I feel rather committed to seeing this fight to some end. I'd rather a loss, over void, because the effort was real, and I tried. So, Melon, I wouldn't readily accept that either myself or Divinity be let off without verdict of a winner. There was definitely enough fighting to constitute a real ranked fight, and much of the issues were resolved.

Given the circumstances, I do accept much of what can be found in the Eden Era ruleset, however not everything written, if beyond the throes of logic. To use it like religious text in the hands of a radical, I would renounce it's usage. However, if the same prep vs non-prep argument was used against me, I'd willingly, albeit reluctantly, accept damage. Right now, I simply do not agree with the concept of 'one post, one prep.' I don't even believe the current Eden Era enforces that in this tier of combat.

I'm not bribing you to stay, or pushing you to leave, Divinity. If you wish to continue, I'm still here, readying a riposte.

[Divinity]

I had already deciphered that much about his other spells. It was stated multiple times that his other actions did not really constitute preps, but quick-casts, which I said I was fine with. Even then, they only didn't 'neccessarily' count as preps, which tells me there is room for the argument.

What I am not fine with is such a nebulous interpretation of the rules. Multiple preps are and aren't allowed, apparently(we can prep multiple things but not everything we want?). We're not allowed to use strict Eden rules because we didn't decide on a ruleset beforehand, despite the ruleset in question being default, as confirmed by Melon, and no one interpretation of it has been adopted by the judge in place of it, so it seems were using some strange composite of the various interpretations with no real defined limits at all.

I just really have no desire to continue with the current stipulations. I've had fun so far and I feel things will only get worse from here on without any conceivable action restrictions. Under that interpretation Corban would be capable of absolutely ridiculous feats, and im not willing to go that far and ruin my already stressed experience just for a win.

[Innue]

Then why raise the big fuss about the rules?

You are wrong that there is no deviation in the multiple preps, even in the original rules. That was generally applicable standard for most characters (again, especially at lower tiers which this battle is not). HOWEVER, this has not applied to this battle, nor has Dazsos seemed to do multiple preparations. If you care to show where he has, I will gladly read it through closely and determine if it is a violation of the rules. You and Daz can opt to do a strict interpretation of the rules if you agree to not do multiple preps, but I do advise you tread exceptionally cautiously with that option.

Never assume a default ruleset, especially since everyone has a different background in combat.

[Divinity]

I have fought many places that used the Eden ruleset, spanning from Yahoo Chat, to Roleplaygateway, and I specifically recall a single prep a turn being the accepted norm.

I am not arguing that dazsos' actions are multi-prepped anymore, as I have said already. I am arguing allowing multiple preps being allowed for the rest of the matches duration in a single post.

I figured it was safe to adopt the standard ruleset here, since in my experience default ruleset are there specifically for scenarios like these, in which the combatants have agreed upon no specific ruleset prior. I thought that would hold up here, rather than assuming the fight starts with literally no rules.

[Innue]

I have fought many places that used the Eden ruleset, spanning from Yahoo Chat, to Roleplaygateway, and I specifically recall a single prep a turn being the accepted norm.

I am not arguing that dazsos' actions are multi-prepped anymore, as I have said already. I am arguing allowing multiple preps being allowed for the rest of the matches duration in a single post.

I figured it was safe to adopt the standard ruleset here, since in my experience default ruleset are there specifically for scenarios like these, in which the combatants have agreed upon no specific ruleset prior. I thought that would hold up here, rather than assuming the fight starts with literally no rules.

@Divinity

Accepted norms are not applicable in every case.

Yahoo chat is where I originated and at higher tier combat there were obvious exceptions to the multiple preps rule as application is highly dependent on the characters involved, especially when you get into characters with fully developed reality shaping abilities or even characters in tiers lower than that power with multiple consciousnesses (or something similar). This is why I am saying you are wrong on that front. You both may choose to consider how much you potentially fall into this category, if at all.

You two have to agree how you want me to apply them and I suggest you outline anything else before either of you makes an another post. While I may not have been clear initially, I would disagree with the strict enforcement at this tier and would expect you and Daz to make concessions if you disagreed on what is being applied and how. You are the combatants and need to establish the parameters or you just have to trust my judgment.

However, there are literally no rules because neither of you two established them. Much of the modern deviations from Eden Era are extrapolations of the rules and common sense on how they are applicable. In the event of no stated rules you'd rely on the expectation those in the officiating position to enforce what is not described equally. Yes, the basis for these generally accepted practices is Eden Era as it is the general basis for most combat.

If I have come across as harsh, I apologize, but I absolutely hate recitations of Eden Era rules with seeming absolutes.

[Divinity]

I have not presented the single-prep concept as an absolute, only supported the fact that a single prep a turn is the generally accepted norm.

I have made many, many concessions as it stands, and I am just not willing to conform to a multi-prep system, for reasons given earlier. If @Dazsos is willing to conform to this, then my post is more or less finished, and has been for the better part of the day. If not, and I assume he feels about multi-preps as strongly as I do about single-preps based on his previous exchange with Melon on the matter, then I will start my post over as a proper exit post.

[Innue]

Your first post about it was definitely phrased an absolute Divinity, but you probably didn't intend it that way and probably intended more nuance.

You two need to establish the terms before this continues, but I'm glad we were able to clarify our agreement that after many posts of discussion that it is not an absolute rule and that it is dependent on the characters. As such, what determination needs to be made is whether or not these characters fall into that exception, and if so, by how much.

[Dazsos]

I feel that under the circumstances given, certain buffs should raise the cap on preps.

Nearly all of Myron's abilities require some sort of preparation. (Slang: Prep?) Swiftly cast spells, the kind Corban is more skilled at, can only be applied to a few things Myron does magically, such as form control & shaping of water, or activating formerly prepared runes.

Now we backtrack to the problem of what a prep really is? A prepared ability? One that is 'enhanced' and empowered over time? A trap of some kind? Either all of Myron's runic spells require a prep, (which shouldn't take long at all, really. Some runes are in other runes!) or he is completely incapable of actually making preps altogether, his basic runes just won't count as preps. This is the ultimatum I see, in which Eden Era's more primitive set of rules redden my character's anus. The fix for this is either making exceptions for Myron, or having me state which of his runes is the 'big prep' every single time, during every post. Strenuous unnecessary excess effort. This is why I see Eden Era as not only imperfect, but not fairly catered to a broader spectrum of combat styles.

In short, if Myron isn't allowed to ideally 'prep' multiple spells while buffed (or if he's even capable of preps!), then the rules unfairly punish him for having a non-traditional spell casting style. I'm willing to work on exceptions and adjustments to the rules Divinity deems acceptable, but I don't plan on swearing an oath to Eden Era's patchy policies.

[Divinity]

Preps and rune mages have almost always shared the relationship you've described, and runes work fine under the 'prep' system. A prep is merely a mechanic to help decipher and gauge the power of an attack or defense. It is not a unit of time. It isn't just 'preparing', or Corban's bubble den would also be prepping, which it currently isn't. Another word used in stead of prep is 'charge', which a rune is more than capable of.

You're allowed to quick-cast. That's not at all what I'm arguing. What you want to do is quick-cast, but it seems you are interpreting quick casting as prepping. Literally all you'd need to do is state that a rune is 'charging' up, and then let it off like a traditional 'prep'. Every single rune should not count as a prep proper, so unless you are charging those 'base level runes', then no, they would not count as charges or preps that would be factored in their power if put up against my prepped stuff. Because literally, you are saying all of your runes should auto count as a prep simply by initiating them, which brings me back to my earlier argument of 'simply mentioning/summoning something doesn't really count as a prep'.

Hell, and there are a million ways to prep using runes. Some people I've fought have used the 'prepping' phase to describe a seal/circles formation. Others make the circle and power it up after summoming, and so on in more creative ways that elude me atm.

Being able to 'prep' by just quick-casting doesn't work for me, because on that logic almost everything in your post cold technically count as a +1, and I'd never be able to decipher what is and isn't a 'prep' using that logic.

[MelonHead]

Thing is there are three issues here.

1. Divinity has been playing with T1 Eden 1 prep, and it is regardless of what anyone says the default ranked ruling system used on RPG Guild, Rilla said so, and he's the president.

2. A ruling has been made using T1 Eden, assuming the one prep system was in play.

3. Changing the rules now provides an unfair advantage to Dazsos, because he is the first to benefit from a system that wasn't in play until this point. If you were going to use a multi-prep system (I have no idea how this works though, if everyone can use as many 'preps' as they want preps are meaningless, as they work as an external balancing system like dice rolls. Multi-preps is basically the equivalent of letting everyone roll as many dice as they want, AKA pointless.) you had to hash that out at the start.

Which is why to change the rules now I believe would invalidate this fight as a ranked match, though I'd have to get Rilla to look at it to know for certain.

Also, the implications that high tiers have more preps is sort of a fallacy, if anything higher tiers can carry out more spectacular abilities without the need to prepare anything at all. If you want to have your spells require preparation that's fine, but only one of them should get any additional bonus from it. The whole point is that you place all your focus into one powerful attack and that's why it defeats an opponent's unprepared defence. That argument falls apart if you can prepare multiple powerful attacks at once, because your supposed to be the same tier as your opponent, so surely they can just do the same.

[Innue]

They need to sort it out.

1. Until that is stated officially on the Rank Headquarters, that cannot be applied.

2. No ruling was made using specifically that basis. I'm the official judge.

3. It provides no advantage to Dazsos since it would also equally apply to Corban who would also potentially be capable of doing this, especially if I correctly recall his sword being sentient (in conjunction with other things).

It is not a fallacy that many of the higher tiers in the late mid to late 90s allowed exceptions to the singular prep. Those that participated in the competitive deathmatches (the ones where if you lost you were not supposed to use that character again anywhere or get shunned), often understood this even under the application of the original rules (many of those participating were people that had helped develop the original rules in various fashions). Again, you may not have seen this due to a different experience, but I have, and frequently.

@Dazsos You still aren't describing preps though really as applied to Eden Era. As Divinity correctly said those are still just quick casted spells. Preps are very specifically spells/abilities that you intentionally spend extra time powering them up. Even just inscribing a rune and leaving it in wait isn't necessarily a prep either. You actively have to be giving it increasing power and it is usually used to logically expand the bounds of what the spell normally behaves at without it.

[MelonHead]

You might be the judge, but Rilla has to validate the ranked fight. A lot of the proper channels were skipped for this fight, no sheet was sent to the judges, everything was vague, no official rules were decided upon. You shouldn't have let the fight start with uncertain rules, or they shouldn't have started without rules decided upon. Point being, this probably shouldn't be considered ranked.

Maybe I misled Divinity then, because I tried to clear up their impasse because it seemed they were both using T1 Eden, and you said you agreed with me. That's my bad, but you should have been asking what rules they were working under all the way back then, really.

It literally does provide an advantage to Dazsos, because he'll be the first to utilize this multi-prep system. If Divinity was not within range to interrupt, Dazsos would have free matured preps and potentially end the fight, because Divinity won't have multi-prepped defences, so an interrupt is the only option.

Regardless, this is a bit of a mess, but I don't believe changing from the time-tested one prep system is going to help things any. Also, I would like to know how the multi-prep system works exactly, and how it serves as a balancing system in any way? Just saying that people in the 90's used it doesn't really explain anything, unless I'm supposed to be impressed that you're super old?

:P

[Divinity]

It would provide a distinct disadvantage to me at this point in thenfight. I have been prepping only one thing for the last several posts assuming one prep is the rule. He has been prepping... I honestly have no idea, as it could potentially be everything , as he stated the only matured prep was his halo I believe. I'd now have to start liquidating my assets to try and backtrack and keep up with his amassed prep count.

Tl;dr: He has multiple things already beginning to prep, while I have focused only one, based on a misunderstanding, otherwise my actions surely would have been different.

Edit: Innue, I was present for a lot of that back in the day on Yahoo! I personally have not encountered a fight like that even in the highest tiers against Yahoo PC notables such as Tsi Kinetic, Terrata Legend, etc. I'm curious what rooms and groups you frequented back then.

[Innue]

We can discuss how it worked, and history, in the chat thread and let these two sort out what precisely is being prepped and how they wish for me to enforce it. :)

Based on the discussion between them a determination of whether or not it stays ranked can follow. And honestly, there still seems some confusion from Dazsos in the application of preps in Eden Era. You two can outline which spell are currently in process for me and, for Dazsos, which ones are being prepped. Maturation of an ability isn't necessarily a prep either.

Many of the ranked fights don't go into great detail on the specifics and leave much to the judge to apply the rulings. They asked me to judge prior to the fight starting via PM so I assumed they had decided anything not specifically outlined would be left to my judgment. This isn't uncommon on here for a number of the fights which don't specifically outline any of the rulesets being used or any more detail than what they did.

They both read each others bios, so I assumed they were aware of any vagueness and were fine with it. Some people like to fight with high adaptability and who am I to stop them?

EDIT: It all depended on who you fought Divinity, which is also why I don't go with assuming rules anywhere ever. I did a lot of room wandering. I initially started with T2 since that is what my friend who got me started did but I was like the worst speed poster ever. I then switch to T1 and wandered rooms a fair amount. The only consistent group I did was one of the super competitive deathmatch circles (which I don't recall anything else name wise) and one of the groups with a fellow named Val (I could never spell the entirety of his name correctly so I shortened it and have since forgotten the remaining letters in it) who did a lot with characters that applied aspects of the Many Worlds Intepretation.

It's been many years since I did Yahoo and many of who had notoriety at the time shifted a bit. I do remember those names, but I don't think I specifically fought either of them. I promptly got my ass kicked in my first combat there and sort of learned to restrain myself after that knowing I had to learn a lot more before I continued. I transitioned out of Yahoo in the mid 2000s and went exclusively to forum for roleplaying and only popped in occasionally after that.

[Divinity]

I don't mean a matured ability, but matured in the context as it's used to describe preps. A prep starts in one post, and then fully 'matures' to a +1 in the players following post.

[Innue]

I don't mean a matured ability, but matured in the context as it's used to describe preps. A prep starts in one post, and then fully 'matures' to a +1 in the players following post.

@Divinity

I know. That was more for Dazsos's reference than yours to try to clarify with him since some of his abilities have native restrictions (if I recall the bio) in that they wouldn't necessarily gain the + even if they take time to form.

[Divinity]

If you still need my prep breakdown, it's all rather straightforward. It has been a single prep which began cooking as of the post where I sustained damage, and has had a mention of one kind or another following it.

Particularly, it started the moment crystal flung her.... crystal into the clouds of the storm.

[Dazsos]

Gee golly, this got out of hand, faster than the pace in which the road runner aptly avoids his coyote pursuer each and every time the camera shines on him and his rocky outcrop of a homeland.

It seems I forgot to imply my old rule of 'put the most important detail at the very end of your post, because that's the one they'll remember and respond to.' Instead I put it in the beginning. I said I was fine with a 1-prep rule, however, however, under the circumstances given... Myron is in a magicked zone where time is incredibly sped up for him. Based on this, I assume it'd be stupid if he wasn't able to pull off at least one extra prep vs Corban's singular; otherwise what use do I have for such an absurdly powerful ability? Nobody seemed to join in on this argument... which was my most important damned question!

"What you want to do is quick-cast, but it seems you are interpreting quick casting as prepping." I... I... no, I'm not. I'm boggled that my words made you think that. I will now assess my language skills in greater depth.

I did say "One that is 'enhanced' and empowered over time?" When referring to preps, noting to my understanding of the system, but relative to how it's tricky when applied to every spell imaginable. I get what you mean by a prep, I'm just tugging on the puppet strings connected to its many letters.

As the argument progressed, I'm pretty sure the ultimatum I discovered was indeed the problem.

Myron is not capable of charging his basic runes with extra power, the power they contain is nearly always the same, unless grown to a humongous size, or altered with a plethora of additional runes. So if we say the process of writing the rune isn't the prep, because he can obviously write multiple runes at once, then he should indeed be allowed to write all the runes he has been with minimal stress, and several at a time. We can perhaps assume that his only real preps are supersized runes, enchantments, and in-depth idioms, which require multiple rune combinations, and thus, extra... what's the word... hmm... preparation? Yeah, that's it. I had in mind a rune that powers up other runes effects, I'll apply it to Myron's skillset so that he's capable of prepping minor runes.

Now last but not least, since I've stated myself as willing to accept T1 Eden rules (and I was in fact following them, don't get me wrong)... here's my real problem. I do not think every prepped ability should oust every non-prepped ability. Myron has some minor spells, like the barrier, which can essentially block many things prepped or not... but it wouldn't count as a prep, right? Logic, science, whatever the hell smart people use should be the go-to on attack effects. Extreme strictness of the rules perceived through outdated text, regardless of morality or common sense is the very basis in which the Templars and ISIS operates. Yes... I'm using ISIS to relate to this, in an attempt to make anyone feel bad if they argue or disagree with this final statement. I know, I can be a bit of a testicular vice-grip at times, I'm terrible... oh well.