Digizel

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

but I do want to offer a little leighway in the cases where a player may not fully grasp the implications of the action they're taking. If we were sitting across from each other at the table, I would do the same thing: "Are you sure you want to subject your teammates to splash damage?" I feel like the alternative feels like a "Gotcha" from the DM where I just announce the friendly fire.

@wanderingwolf

Yeah, I would agree with that. I suppose I was more referring to major retcons from a number of turns ago. If a minor retcon like that has to happen, I believe it should be resolved before the next DM post goes up. But yeah, stuff like that I'm totally fine with~

Hmm, on this point I'm less convinced. Saur's plan of attack may not be shared between the rest of the group. Reading the replies in this game is the responsibility of every player--it's why we're here! I think maybe we should leave it up to the player to ask in OOC if tactics have been discussed, if they are really pressed for time. Maybe a summary location where strategies have been posited and by whom is a fair compromise.

@wanderingwolf

Yeah, I certainly get that. I was definitely thinking about how in a live game, people would be talking above board about what the plan of attack is and whether or not each individual character would be privy to the plan. That situation is a little more messy in a PBP format like this where everybody's circumstances are different. But I think overall, I'm fine with the answer being no. Asking above board on the OOC thread is a good enough idea for me~ It certainly doesn't take even a minute to ask the question, so I've got no problem leaving it at that.

This is a good opportunity for us to discuss this here as a group. Do players care to have Blind GM rolls for Perception-based rolls? If everyone would like to roll their own Perception, we can totally do that, and I'll keep an eye on metagaming.

@wanderingwolf

Honestly, I really do like rolling the dice myself. It's what most tables I've ever played at do, and just expect players to not play with the meta knowledge and only have characters act on what they reasonably know. I definitely get the point of blind DM rolling though, because not everybody is good at keeping the bias out of their characters' thoughts. It has their ups and their downs.

If you do blind DM rolling, then it means you as the DM have to roll a lot more and are constantly going to have to go back and forth referencing everybody's character sheets, checking for feats that cover things, circumstance bonuses, etc. It also removes the excitement of hitting a high roll if we don't know what we rolled, and only get the result. But it removes those biases from the equation.

If you don't do blind DM rolling and let everybody else do the rolling for them and somebody knows they critically failed, then it does lead to those biases. But at the same time, everybody only has to keep track of their own stat sheet and only have to confirm which check to make.

I'm always in favor of having players roll the dice themselves and just kinda reminding them to not act on the idea that they probably failed (especially when it comes to stealth vs perception; even if you think you rolled poorly, you never know when the other guy could just also roll really badly). I just really like knowing my personal results so I can feel that excitement or disappointment. xD

So my vote goes for that, but I'm not against the alternative either.

---

On an unrelated note, I noticed an issue with Pathbuilder. When I modify my sheet, like when Saur took damage before or when I gave him those elixirs, it didn't save the changes on the sheet posted in the characters tab. Rather, it saved a completely new version of the same character. So if you click Saur's sheet, you can see that he still has 20 HP and no elixirs in his gear list.

But I updated it before and I got this new CS instead. On this, you can see he has taken 8 damage and has the 2 elixirs on hand.

Anybody know if there's a way to change this? Is this just a setting I can change somewhere that I'm just not seeing...? Or should we just put our CS's in the Characters tab in our own posts and update them as we go?

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Saur

Saur watched as the flash beetle approached him again, seeing the thorax beginning to glow, the wings and mandibles fluttering and clacking...but still he held firm, and luckily, it ultimately seemed to pay off. The beetle began to show signs of calming itself, looking confused in the moment...before taking what he offered and scurrying away as quickly as its legs could carry them.

He smiled as he watched the beetle scuttle away and rose back to his own two feet again. His heart was still racing; judging by the strength of those mandibles digging into his body not that long ago, if that beetle had decided to go on the attack, there was a chance that it would completely tear him apart. But, luckily, it seemed content. He wasn't sure what it was that eased it, but he supposed it didn't matter at this point. And now, with the beetles pacified, Saur felt his racing heart beginning to slow down, the adrenaline of getting attacked by these beetles began to wear off...

It was at that moment that he winced in pain and sank to one knee in the water. He reached his arm back and gripped at one of the two bite wounds that had dug into weak spots in his armor. Now that the action was wearing off, the pain only just now began to register.

"...It seems we've set them at ease. They shouldn't bother us again as long as we don't give them a reason. I appreciate you all listening to me," Saur finally murmured lowly in common, his gaze drifting over to the water and away from the others. "I understand you had no obligation to do so. You have my sincerest gratitude.... Apologies if I put any of you on the spot, I suppose I fell back into habit."

As he spoke, he rose back to his feet again. He'd had his few seconds of rest. He was tempted to pull his healing kit out and start treating his wounds, but there was no time for that. He considered the elixirs he had been handed by that stranger for winning their "race" but he didn't feel the need to use those quite yet. He wasn't in any immediate danger.

And he had a job that needed doing.

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Yeah I think I agree with Bean on this. Once we had things worked out, it seemed to run pretty well~ The only takeaway I think I care about besides those two would be future combat retcons and trying to avoid them if possible. Trying to understand how to make them is definitely going to significantly slow things down. xD

Because of aphantasia, I do appreciate the battle maps being brought up after every turn and a brief summary of the changes in the battle. It's hard to say how well it'll be run when we get into more complex combats where we are actually FIGHTING our enemies, but I think what we did here works~

OH, actually, a thought I had. I know we as players aren't supposed to know how much HP an enemy has or anything like that, but it might be a good idea to track some things that we know in the summary part of the DM posts. Like for instance, how much damage has been clocked on each target that we're aware of, if there are any active conditions in play, whatever damage resistances and immunities we have in play.... Maybe even a very brief summary of the party's current plan of attack if one has been stated, just in case a situation like Clan's comes up again where they feel pressured to post mid-combat, but are just really struggling to find the time. Reading through a lot of text all at once can seem kind of daunting, but if they just had to read the summary section of the DM post to understand what the party is trying to do without the RP and descriptive fluff, then it might help.

I know that's a bit of extra work on the DM's part, but...

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Alrighty, if the change is just bomb isn't getting thrown, but the pellet was still shot, I probably won't have to change too much. Actions will still be the same on my end though, I'll just have to change up how Saur acts and what he said~

Or I'm fine with just not doing that and then just pretending like it never happened IC and not bother actually writing a different scene. However we want to handle the retcon is fine by me, but I'll await Wolf's answer before I bother xD

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Ah, the retcon I noticed was changing an the bomb's target from the pacified Flash 4 to throwing the bomb at Flash 2, is that what you meant? That one's been acknowledged already. Or is it that you made that choice without realizing it would cause damage to Saur and Jenk since you were seemed kinda tired at the time and want to go back on that?

Because I also am not seeing a post mentioning any other kind of retcon.

Note that I don't mind Saur taking 1 HP of damage since it's basically nothing. And as a fan of interparty conflict, I--as a player--have no problems with having Saur be angry at Starfinger for it. Imo, it'll make it far more satisfying when they inevitably end up working together to take on whatever boss fight is likely at the end of this module. Same story with Fleur, I love it when party members are from different walks of life and have such conflicting ideals. Aaas long as all the players keep in mind that it is strictly IC behavior and no shade is ever actually being thrown at the other players~

And personally, I actually like this take on the situation. Interparty conflict that doesn't involve actual combat between PCs, likely due to differences in the way the characters learned to do things. And as a special bonus for me, I get to also show the other party members a side of Saur they hadn't gotten to see~ But my character is different from Rush's, so I can only speak for me xD

That said, I'm also fine with editing my post if necessary, since his response will be VERY different if the frost vial never got thrown. I just need to know if I need to edit before we move too far along.

Though I'd request that we try to refrain from making major retcons like this so late after the post was made. It kinda makes things a bit confusing even in a live game. I'd be okay with it here since: 1. it's the first time we are considering a major retcon, 2. There aren't really any actual damage numbers to have to worry about and 3. these latest posts went up so quickly that there wasn't really any time to think about whether you might want to retcon it or not when it first happened.

TL;DR - Due to the circumstances, I don't mind having to edit my post this time--since I WILL have to edit my post and change Saur's reactions if that bomb was never flung--if that's what Clan wants to do here. But I really don't want to make it a habit of changing actions a few posts down the line if possible because it'd be kind of a pain in more complex combats.

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Saur

Saur, still reeling from the mandibles that had dug into his back a moment ago, rested on his knees for but a moment, expecting his companions to cover for him. He expected Jenk and Starfinger, at least. He wasn't entirely confident that he could rely on the other two dipping their hands in this strange, viscous liquid. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw the Goblin move and smiled a bit. It seemed like Jenk was going along with his idea after all, drawing close to the Flashbug and offering it the ichor. And then, to a much more pleasant surprise, he saw one of the "snooty elves" as he had been considering them in his mind step up and hand deliver some ichor herself. His eyes widened momentarily in his surprise, and gave her a nod of approval.

That smile finally faltered when he heard a thud! on the wall behind him. He was quick to spin around to look at what had happened, just in time to see a sling pellet fall from the wall. But before he could register what had truly happened, a glass vial came flying in out of the corner of his eye...before coming down to crash at the ground in front of the beetle. The ensuing blast of icy cold gale struck him, causing him to fold his arms in front of him to protect his face as best he could. The harsh, cold wind penetrated his armor and seeped into his scales, causing the coldblooded soldier to shiver in place. The blast didn't hurt very much...but it still hurt, and now he was cold.

But the cold soon began to thaw just as quickly as it had come, and Saur's fangs gritted. The sight of Eleashor moving in helped relieve his anger for a moment; he wouldn't blame the elf for not directly touching the ichor, there was hardly any space left to get to the flashbug anyway. Yeah, he could have climbed onto the desk in order to reach down...this was at least a step forward, and he wasn't going to pick a fight over something so minor when it ultimately didn't matter. His companions, save one, had followed his lead just as he'd requested at the top, even despite any personal grievances they likely had. Only one of them had gone against his orders, but this was no time to concern himself with the fallout of that. If that bomb hadn't decimated the flashbug that was now in front of him, he knew what he needed to do.

Saur immediately rose back to his desk as the numbness from the cold quickly faded away. He reached out to the desk in order to scoop up the ichor, attempting to take a bit more generous of a portion as best he could through his cupped claws. He took a moment to give Elaeshor an expression of gratitude, and turned back to face the flashbug again. If this thing was still alive, he wouldn't hesitate. He would kneel down to it, attempting to pacify it. If this didn't work due to it being more riled up from the blast of cold, then that was fine. If it attempted to flee or attempted to fight back, that was also fine. He considered raising his shield just in case it reared back on him...but no.

Putting himself on guard like that was only going to risk agitating it further. IF he wanted to pacify this one after that, he was going to need to stay here and relax itself; try to show that he meant no harm and was going to keep it safe. His expression softened, a look he's not had with any of the group thus far. And suddenly, the group would hear Saur go into a new tongue. One which only Starfinger would be able to understand, though whether or not the others would recognize the language itself as the language of subterranean civilizations, Sakvroth--otherwise sometimes known as Undercommon--was another matter entirely. Heck, he had no reason to believe this beetle would even recognize it at all, but it was completely instinctual on the Kobold's part, speaking to a creature typically found in subterranean environments in order to establish some kind of connection or even tame one.... His tone was soft and gentle, very different from the angry, commanding tone he'd taken for the entire day up to this point.

"Shhh...it's alright, little one. I know it was cold and it hurt." the Kobold murmured lowly in Sakvroth. "Here, take this. Don't worry, it won't happen again. Just take this and join your friends, alright...?"

Saur was not wary of the creature in front of him. He had relaxed his entire body in order to calm and soothe the creature in front of him. If it reared up and attacked him again for this, he wouldn't exactly blame it. But he didn't want to put it down either, so he was willing to take that risk. Still, if this attempt failed, he wasn't sure if the group would have a choice in the matter.

OOC

Only two actions this time around. I was considering making the third a Command Animal nature check, but "commanding" it isn't really what he's trying to do here, so I opted against it. If there's another action he could take instead, I'm not sure what it would be. xD

1. Scoop the ichor from the desk he's still standing beside
2. Offer the ichor to Flash 2, who's also still next to him so he doesn't have to move anywhere.

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Ooh was not expecting such quick progress, I'll get my own post done in a moment then!

Also dang, I made one and went back to find it, but I guess I didn't actually post it. Whoops.

Anyway, here's Saur's token I suppose~ Surprised how decent I was able to actually make this. Originally, his colors were darker browns, reds and blacks in order to blend into cavernous surroundings, but he's since had his armor adjusted for more foresty surroundings since he's been in those more often as an adventurer than when he used to be with his clan~

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Oooh you're right, you're right, that does include the MAP, my b~

Still tho, the posts that came before have been spent pacifying the beetles at Saur's request via the ichor on the desk. Starfinger doesn't have to adhere to that of course, feel free to shoot if you want to~ But one of the beetles you're aiming at was already pacified on the previous GM post, so if you want to make both shots at Flash Beetle 2, then that should fix your problem.

P2e - Threshold of Knowledge

Right, sorry, nephew's been sick and work's been hell

@clanjos

Heyo, no problem, but you may want to take a closer look at the posts that came before in the combat round.

Also, in PF2e, when you make multiple attacks in the same turn, you take a Multiple Attack Penalty (MAP). You get a -5 to your second attack and -10 to your third and more. Likely to encourage players to do different things in combat than just attacking over and over. So funnily enough, I think both of your attacks would be the same result xD

The Agile weapon trait reduces the MAP to -4 and -8 respectively though~

Epyllion: Beyond Moonlight's Reach

<Snipped quote by rush99999>

Yes, I'm still with you guys.
Sorry, it's been hectic on my end, and things are going to be harder for me to post.
I'll be with family until after Thanksgiving. Posting will still be slow, but if I can post, I will. Sorry again.

@Guardian Angel Haruki

Ack, I know that feeling well. Good luck with that, I know that kinda time can be tough. Hope you and your family will have fun though! Remember to take breaks and find some breathing room if you need it~ Take care of yourself and try not to let things stress you out too much, we'll still be here whenever you're ready~