mdk

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I mean, it's the Muslims who have concentration camps these days.

@Andreyich

these days

Um....

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

MCSO has been doing immigration and immigration–related enforcement operations even when it had no accurate legal basis for doing so.

@Fabricant451

I recall there being a federal lawsuit against Arizona, brought by the Obama admin, for their enforcement of immigration law. Then again I also recall Obama admin having the highest rate of deportation in (recent?) history, so it's not like they were totally scuttling the whole border-security effort.

Anywho. I don't wanna sound like I'm endorsing the methods here. The concept I have in my head is, here's this old curmudgeonly let's-just-assume-he's-a-racist guy is out there doing his job. The court, and not the legislature, tells him that he has to do a different thing, and he says "no, the law says I do X," so he does X. The court predictably convicts him of doing X, and Trump then pardons him for doing X. That part and only that part makes perfect sense in my head.

X, assuming your assessment is on the level, is pretty gross. I mean people have been pardoned for worse, but not in the first year of the first term of a presidency. That's an odd tactical decision. The only way I can make sense of the administration's message here is if I assume that equation above -- "If X is the law, we do X." Still shaky though.

More generally, I fall into that camp where like, if California wants to set California policy, I think that's swell. I'm not in California, they can do what they want. Federal lawsuits to muscle state policy are, by their nature, offensive to me, and that is probably endearing me to the wrong moral side of this case. That's my bias, that's the only reason Sheriff Joe has my tacitly-implied non-condemnation here. I don't wanna sound like an apologist.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I might've misheard initially. I was pulling from memory and only the brief refresher when you posted it. Even if he doesn't call illegal immigrants animals he's got people who will do that for him, but more on that elsewhere. But for the sake of honesty, yes, let's say that I said that Trump called illegal immigrants animals and that I might've misheard or misremebered the sentence and context and that's on me and my bad there.

@Fabricant451

I mean you're technically right. He called MS13 animals, and MS13 are (almost?) entirely illegal immigrants. MS13 are certainly animals too. This is that thing the talking heads on the left like to do when Trump speaks -- generalizing statements that were actually rather specific. It's... okay lemme put on my tinfoil hat here, the mental conditioning is working and that's odd, and also they're making the frogs gay. Okay tinfoil off. Just.... y'know, that's a really nasty thing for someone to say (illegal immigrants are animals!) and it's bizarre to me that -- even as an honest misremembered mistake -- that registered as a plausible Trump statement. Is that.... am I making sense here? Like if I said oh, remember that time Obama said white people are literally satan, I didn't like that. I can only actually think that -- even momentarily -- if I am unfair, in my mind, to Pres. Obama. Me thinking Obama said that would call into question lots of other things I think about Obama.

......and now I'm off the handle completely. Let's bring it back. He called out MS13, and not illegal immigrants in general.

To then purposely lie even about petty shit like the crowd of the rally and the 'crowd' of protesters further paints the canvas of this being an 'us against them' thing. Which then was only furthered when he called the rally a safe space as if people attending were in danger just for attending.

To the former, I mean, the place was pretty full. To the latter, they kinda are in danger just for attending. So...........

Increasingly it feels like the guy can't take criticism and instead will spin it so it's their fault he's being criticized.

Not my favorite character trait of his. It feels odd because typically, all you have to do is call the GOP racists and they roll over and do whatever you want. If I'm being generous, Trump is fighting back and nobody's had to deal with that before -- if I'm being cynical and probably realistic, he's got thin skin. FWIW though, there is a ton of fake bullshittery about him. Here's a video of Trump in Houston, with CNN's commentary played over the vid.

I mean he was literally violating the Fourth Amendment and various civil rights. And the pardon sends a certain message, namely that 'hey it's okay to literally break the law and profile people that might be immigrants because they're brown and look different. Arpaio's actions should not be praised at all; he literally abused his position and violated the law, something he is supposed to enforce.

If you had to guess, what percentage of illegal immigrants in the state of Arizona are Latino? Ballpark.

I don't think there is any way to enforce immigration law in that state which wouldn't look racist. I am absolutely against racism, but absolutely FOR immigration law. The order Joe violated was not "stop arresting brown people," it was "stop enforcing the law." This is a messy scenario, because -- if accusations are to be believed -- Joe is, independent of that order, kind of a major douche. But that's not the subject of his conviction -- the (Obama-appointed) court ordered the Sheriff to ignore the law, which just, ya know.... I DON'T KNOW I don't have a visceral reaction to his continuing to enforce said law. I appreciate that yes, it looks pretty ludicrously racist on the surface but like I said I don't know how you could do that job and NOT look racist. I mean, short of building a wall.

literally a racist, xenophobe, literally set up a concentration camp for prisoners, inhumanely treated prisoners by subjecting them to temperatures so hot their shoes were melting, didn't investigate crimes like the rape of a child, improperly clearing seventy five percent of crimes without investigation or arrest, took political opponents to court not for anything legitimate but because they were in the way, and is also an Obama birther...

Yeah that's the stuff I'm not crazy about.

I'm going to assume the two are Spencer and Milo

[character sheets for the world's worst RP]

Yeah that all sounds like nothing I want any part of, lol

....dammit my intention was NOT to go through and do that point-by-point "pull a thing here, pull a thing there" wall-o-text counterargument. But I've done it.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

When people here use the term Alt-Right we mean people like Richard Spencer and your Milos and your Andrew Anglin's and Marcus Halberstram and Jared Taylor and Vox Day.

@Fabricant451

I recognize exactly two of those names, and I only don't mind one of those. Milo's amusing sometimes.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

*snip*

@Fabricant451

Most of this is fair. Lemme pull a couple of things that irked me..... hangon.

when he calls illegal immigrants 'animals'

To clarify, before I go off the handle -- is it your assessment that Trump "called illegal immigrants animals," or is it your assessment that media claims Trump called illegal immigrants animals? And/or that the latter was Trump's intent?

Vague...The rally is full of exaggerations and blatant false statements...

That's a pretty simplistic characterization. My point being, if you were to analyze any political speech by any politician, you could probably say the same thing about it. The Gettysburg Address was vague and full of exaggerations and fal.... well.... okay maybe not the best example. But you get my point, surely -- the criticism, as I'm hearing it anyway, sounds like "business as usual, but I dislike it."

My takeaways were (a) when he's defending his Charlottesville statements -- which I had no problem with -- he's doing it like he's debating on the internet, and it sounds dumb, and definitely not something he should've done for twenty minutes or whatever, because why. But then also (b), nobody has ever called people out on their bullshit the way Trump calls people out on their bullshit, and (c) end of the day, that single rally produced more energy than Hilary's entire campaign. The man is doing something right, in terms of leadership.

Specific policy-wise, I could go either way. I'm not crazy about doing away with the 60% rule in the Senate, but it's not a ridiculous bridge to cross at this point. I'd rather leave it in place though. Sheriff Joe -- I dunno, I was in his corner for a while until I read some of the accusations against him. Then I think, you know, I've met lawyers before, "accusations" aren't everything. If he were convicted for treatment of prisoners that'd be one thing -- his actual conviction, for which he was pardoned (as I understand it anyway) was for enforcing the law against the court's wishes. The court doesn't get to legislate. I don't have a problem with that pardon but I haven't looked into it much, Idunno. I could be convinced it's a dick move.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Penny

kk

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

The point is the vast majority of links I follow from conversations like this are hardly worth the effort as a result I no longer expend that effort.

@Penny

Well then. On with the emotional appeal to ignorance in open disdain of evidence. You've certainly keeping the right company.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

Sorry by my policy on this thread doesn't change regardless of the amount of times liberal is put in quotation marks. This hasn't always been my policy, but statistical sampling in the early days has borne me out.

@Penny

lol @ "statistical sampling."

You can't just throw a science-ish word into your willful ignorance and turn it into evidence.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I mean I already did so

@Fabricant451

whoa hold the phone -- you watched the rally? Nobody does that anymore. Hats off. Respect level up.

So what do YOU think about it?

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

Nice try, but I still refuse to follow the link.

@Penny

We have a word for people who make broad accusations and refuse to look at any evidence, or to do even the slightest amount of research.

That word is "liberals."