mdk

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

in fairly major news

Theresa May assassination plot foiled; guess who.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I just wanna circle back real quick to note two things -- first, I'm stupid, and it's the fourteenth amendment that protected voting rights for all (male) citizens regardless of race, not the thirteenth, my bad (but some of yours too, we must be equally stupid).

The other thing I wanted to point out is that this concept I've been talking about -- where your rights exist already, and the law simply protects (or fails to protect) them -- that's not something I just made up. That's the way the Constitution is written. It's not so much "my take" on things, that's the actual extant law of the United States. The law doesn't say "You're allowed to have guns," the law says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

....except when it's not written that way, which is something I didn't realize (because clearly I don't study the constitution enough) until I looked it up to prove my point. Take the "Miranda" rights, for example -- there's a significant technical difference between the fourth amendment ("The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated") and the sixth (it's long, google it). The fourth considers security a basic human right, where the sixth extends a legal privilege to citizens. Wildly different concepts. We refer to both as "rights" in regular humanspeak, but those are different things.

Which brings me to this -- I'm definitely right about certain constitutional rights, but I'm also definitely wrong and you folks are right about other constitutional rights. According to what the actual law actually is, anyway, we can argue philosophically about that, but the constitution itself (and its amendments), pretty black-and-white.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@mdk

If a law's popular it's good. If it's unpopular, it'll make people unhappy and possibly get changed/start a revolt/protest/revolution if there are enough unpopular laws.

Laws aren't morals. Laws are commands from the people in charge.

@Silver Carrot

Let's say homosexuality is punishable by death in Fakenisia, and not in the Fabulous States of Don't Go There Girlfriend (FSDGTG for short). What, in your mind, should the interactions between these two nations look like? Would the FSDGTG be justified in, I dunno, pulling this out of a hat.... would they be justified in, say, limiting immigration from Fakenisia?

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Odin @Silver Carrot What makes a good law, then? Or is there even such a thing?

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

*snip*

God or the divine is referenced in every state constitution.

@Heat

Plenty to spin off on here -- most I could summarize by saying "We're a Christian-majority democracy, it's only natural." The laws about who can run for office should definitely go.... but this quote brings up this week's classic mdk rant.

I think the references to God and/or the divine are actually very important.

Not for religious reasons, but for legal ones. It's important, in my opinion, to codify in the highest law (in every law really) that rights do not come from the government. One does not have the freedom of speech because the first amendment says so -- one has that right period, and drafts the constitution in order to forbid the government from interfering. That's a vital distinction. The thirteenth amendment did not grant former slaves the right to vote, it ended the government's ability to trample that right. That right was always there; that's why slavery (and segregation, and denying female suffrage, and so on) was wrong.

Insofar as the references to God and/or the divine accomplish that purpose, they are crucial. Naturally, if we were writing the various constitutions today, we'd describe all these things as human rights, and 200 years from now the glip glops from Traflorkia would think we were xenophobic not to include them.

Anyway.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

IN OTHER NEWS, Russia probe is developing in two directions at once. Manafort back on the hook, and also, it turns out the same agent (1) de-criminalized Comey's statement on Hilary, then (2) officially opened the russia investigation, then (3) interviewed Gen. Kelly, then (4) was just fired by Mueller for using his position to play politics.

So we have on the one hand, Manafort losing his bail agreement and clearly the investigation has something (dunno how much). Kelly, who lied to and was fired by Trump admin early but then became the subject of multiple twitterings. But then on the OTHER hand, we have, like.... some downright remarkable fuckery going on within the FBI. Interesting all around.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@mdk

I agree with you. My issue is that one side claims to be holier-than-though because they have religion. Like, all these pastors out there preaching, but then they get caught engaging in homosexual acts or pedophilia.

@Xandrya

Literally half a dozen preachy liberals have been outed for sexual misconduct in the last three weeks. It's not the Christianity that's offensive, it's the self-righteous hypocrisy and there is PLENTY of that to go around. Let's hate it all equally.

I'll go first. Castrate clergy who touch kids, and throw anybody who protected them in jail.

EDIT: I think we're saying the same thing, I'm just defensive because the examples seem one-sided.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

Just gonna.... sorta tongue-in-moderately-cheekish-ly spin-off on this one for literally no reason at all except I'm an egotist and everything is about me, even stuff that you wrote about yourself. K? Awesome.

My issue with the right is the fact that their fight involves f*cking up the lives of millions. Stuff like: gay marriage should once more be illegal...

@Xandrya

Gay marriage should be legalized through congress and the SCOTUS finding should remain in place until that happens, even though it's deeply flawed.

abortion is an abomination (we don't care if the woman's health is in danger or if she was raped)...

The right answer is too nuanced to legislate. There's got to be a middle ground between holding pregnant women at gunpoint until they fart out a baby, and spiriting twelve-year-old girls away from school to serious medical procedures without their parents' knowledge or consent. If we're gonna shoot for something -- because I guess we have to -- let's shoot for the middle somewhere?

birth control is the devil, etc....

Well that's just stupid. Birth control is Baal, everybody knows that. Fun fact: Baal is a bad guy in the old testament whose name I remembered, and that reference was a fucking bull's eye. Google it.

But you know, freedom of religion in the U.S. is more like freedom of Christianity.

Well that can't be surprising. In a democracy where the government concedes religious influence, the most popular religion is going to be the most represented. It's only a problem if we start trampling on the rights of citizens. Which the Christians never do, obviously.... Obviously.

The left's agenda is less...malicious.

Hang on, let me go find you some Salon articles.

I mean, don't get me wrong they did have that shit in Cali with HIV+ people, but aside from that, I mean, they don't seem so vicious, like damn vultures.

The extremes on both sides are every bit as bad as one another. The only difference is, extreme right (a la KKK) gets media play. I can do the examples game but that's not the point, it's not like we can tally up who's so-called 'side' has done the most shitty things and pick a winner. All we can do is try to be less shitty. And, I mean, and also brutally murder all the communists in public. NOT SAYING WE SHOULD! Just that, you know, we could. That's on the table, is all I'm saying. That's a thing we can do.

They complain like hell, but you know, the right were crying about damn Starbucks cups because it was red, like, who gives a f*ck? World hunger is still an issue people.

I still don't understand what was the goddamn point of that.

But like I said, I'm right in the middle. I can't completely side with one party or the other.

Nor should you. God knows I don't.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I love a good cop story.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I'm withholding judgment on the Flynn situation. The man got a pretty serious reduction in charges, which usually happens when you cut a deal and squeal. Whatever nothing burger conclusions we might draw from this are premature (including that very same squealing idea I just said). We'll see.