Mobius

Arena Chat Thread

No roleplay is worth putting your schedule in jeopardy, lmao. I ain't going to fuck over my players in already dedicated games or compromise adult responsibilities for hobby writing in a gamble in Arena. What in the fucking world.

Miss me with that shit.

@Inkarnate

Oh please. You act like writing up a thread "for fun" and not "winning" is somehow going to eat up your time. You aren't fooling anybody. Now if this was an exhibition match and you needed to think and judge: then yeah you need some hours I could understand, but you offered an alternative to fighting for funises so really it should take you a half hour or less to crank 3 paragraphs tops with a friend of yours.

You just have no conviction. Don't blame real life we all got work.

Arena Chat Thread

I already am participating (and leading some of them) over a dozen roleplays. I am not going to treat my players disrespectfully just to “prove” anything to you or others. But you are correct that those who want to do Arena (whatever way it is designed) should just do it. If people have time and energy to devote they should do it. But I can see why they might not want to given the pushback and sentiment given here in this thread. Role-playing is a fickle hobby and people are going to join and not stick around. But if you want Arena to rejuvinated and not be a decaying waste of space you want to make sure those newcomers want to stay around.

@Inkarnate

You aren't going to do it because you have no real investment in the arena worth putting your schedule in jeopardy. That means you have no intention of actually being one of the movers who can give that change you are subscribing for the rest of the arena. Then don't pretend it has anything to do with pushback and don't pin it on me or anyone else. There's no pushback. You are free to make things happen right now, tomorrow, or next week and no one is going to protest about it. Now people may say things (I've had this treatment happen too much around here) but if you really care you'd ignore it and play until you're finished.

The purpose of role-playing is collaborating creative ideas and creating a story.

@Inkarnate

Miss me with that bullshit. The purpose of roleplaying is to play a role. That's it. It's basically an offshot of old RPGs made into text form from muds. People back in AOL in the late 90s were already establishing fight rules and shit and then when Toonami threw Gundam in a bunch of mecha/anime gundam roleplays came with an influx of new and current players. The story is there whether or not it's from exhibitions or elaborate works on plot and even then most of it was impromptu.

Basically a bunch of kids played too many RPGs and Final Fantasies then decided to make something out of it. The long expanding stories was a bonus for those who actually finish and the story reached a conclusion (cause either players leave or lose interest). It was never some big thing to tell the next Harry Potter that's that new wave 2003 shit when forums were kicking off and you can write beyond character limits on your ISP's chat based services.. or those who had a story from the chat days thinking it'd resonate real good with others. A lot of seasoned players could weave a story from a bunch of poorly connected tavern fights and eventually make something canon, and PVP was always there.

In my opinion that supersedes any precedent of an “alpha mentality” that suggests arena-oriented roleplay is inherently competitive.

@Inkarnate

Alpha mentality to someone soft I assure you. Roleplaying was always a game first. Roleplaying on the net came from text based graphic muds and then became tavern chat stuff with a lot of fighting in it(I mean if you wanna call it that). The game was always both. You cannot try to separate it because no matter where you go it'd eventually creep up on you: someone is going to want to fight. There's always a rookie who wants to know how to fight in this game and they write like 3 sentences. You can't escape it. You can discourage them. You can throw them elsewhere. That can work, but plugging your ears and ignoring a "problem" doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's interconnected. Anyone who loves this game can appreciate both.

I hope you get what you want out of the section in the future.

@Inkarnate

I already got what I wanted. Dynamo just asked what regulars thought.

Arena Chat Thread

I've said it once and said it before. Arena-style roleplaying has in the past – admittedly on other sites – been more about creating a fight that is enjoyable no matter the outcome.

@Inkarnate

That's a first I've heard of it. People come to play to win cause it's a game and the story comes later if at all.

It seems enough people prefer it than people clamoring for wins, arguing about the leaderboards, and having the “ready to lose scrub?” mentality.

@Inkarnate

Oh yeah? I challenge that right off the bat. Where are they and show me their activity then. Go make it happen right now instead of telling me that it exist, because I don't see it.

You can disagree on the notion that competitive orientation being problematic, but I'm sorry but there are other ways to look at Arena-style RP than just “play to win”.

@inkarnate

That is as much as your opinion as it is mine, but the purpose of fighting is to win. You don't join a tournament to lose. No one who is serious does that. You can join a fight to improve(get better at winning) or because pitting wits is fun(to see how you can win). You can do it because fighting is how you tell a story, but don't sit and say there's more than playing to win for competitive play and arena. The end of all of those motivations always come down to whether someone wins or loses.. even your precious stories have winners and losers. That's just life.

I've experienced it on older forums, but “play to have fun, win or lose” is just as valid and for RPG as a community I personally think its better for the sub-forum going forward.

@inkarnate

Then don't tell me about it

Show me with all of your wisdom and make it happen cause I've yet to see it.

I would, but unfortunately, at this time I have too many roleplay commitments to run something on a more active basis (like Tex wants for instance). I have time to set aside for discussion and dialogue but not running something large that takes a lot of time and focus. Maybe in the future. We'll see.

@Inkarnate

Always an excuse with these idealist, I swear.

The main problem is this: You got a bunch of people who aren't active in the arena and have NO INTENTION OF EVER PLAYING but they cook up these excuses as to why they don't come here. When you press them to do something about it: they don't. They want to cry. They want someone to do it for them and I'll tell you why:

They want someone who can make it happen do it for them. They sell you on a lie that their ideas can bring activity here, but as 2 yes 2 tournaments have proven no it doesn't. The people who wanna be here WILL BE HERE and are already here. The reasons they don't show is because they don't want to and nothing you will do will change it, because once you change it you lose your primary player-base and you'll never get the return on this imaginary "guarantees" from these others to support you.

You really want the arena to be active? This is how you do it: reach out to players who do fight and can fight. You go to arena regulars, names who you know are about that arena play, and new players who do want to fight. You don't reach out to people who aren't about that action. It isn't like a bunch of them were here when I showed up: it was as dead as it is now. I got here with regulars who were looking for something to do and worked with them: for better or for worst. I've never seen Tex, Inkarnate, or Silver Carrot but I have seen Leeroy, Doc, Melon, Pollen, Xavier, members of the YGG, Rilla, Dynamo, and Tasuke. I reached out to people who I know will do a thing and hopefully finish one. You don't reach out to the wrong crowd because they are going to make demands and want things you can't fulfill that'd end up alienating those who could or has supported you: those who actually post here and brought frequency, these other guys aren't going to do that. They think "Playing to win" is inherently bad. Do you really want people like that dictating the spirit of an arena? They don't even know how competition works or competitive players think. We have fun a different way and some of us can do both.

I mean, shit if they mean it they can make threads about it right now. They don't need permission from guild to build that interest: according to them that interest is there. Sure.. then do it. I never asked Rilla or anyone to do my thing so why should you? Focus on how you play and not on the rest of us.

Go. Make it happen. Show us how it's done and this fun you have and bring activity here. Make it yourself and be proud of your work.

Edit* No disrespect to Rilla for trying his tournaments. At least he tried it and they failed for whatever reason so I am not knocking the dude.

Arena Chat Thread

Sorry, I just find your position on 'winning' completely laughable.

@tex

that's because your idea of competition is laughable. You can't relate.

There were many points brought up about reforming Arena so that there are options which can allow more inclusive styles of play outside of the 'competitive' sector,

@Tex

Sounds like inclusivity comes at the sacrifice of the arena and tournament's purpose. You want to pretend fight then go to the other sections where you're free to arrange it.

which is absolutely flooded with arbitrary and nebulous rules.

@Tex

That's because you don't play.

Why is autohitting a universal rule in most places? Is that arbitrary? can you answer it?

Judgement on competitive combat should be objective, but it cannot be done in such a manner due to the subjective nature of not only fictional writing, but fictional combat. whenever I think of Arena judgement, I compare it to death battle, pretty much entirely.

@Tex

Take your nihilism elsewhere then cause this section isn't for you. There's many styles among us and we don't all agree, but we do agree on a standard on what is and isn't allowed. How "x" and "y" interact and what it means when z happens.

A great deal of focus on 'rules and regulations' is not helpful.

@Tex

Opinion

All you're purporting is for Arena to do more of the same.

@Tex

Wrong again. My posts in this thread was for players to take action and I've only butted in to correct fallacious points (whether it was by Dias or what competition is). No one is stopping you from doing things yourself like Carian has or myself.

Go ahead and get started

If people don't want things to change, I don't care all that much.

@Tex

Who are you to dictate change and what type of change? What if we don't need change? What if we don't need change in certain areas? Not all change is good change.

But you will continue to pertain to a niche that a great deal of role-players seem to find especially repulsive.

@tex

A great deal in RPGuild. There's a lot of places that have pvp focuses (theme based mainly) who aren't adverse of some pvp. I find your lack of empathy to the spirit of competition repulsive. Do you care? I assume not, but the feeling is 100 percent mutual.

The outcome there would ultimately be the result of Arena's culture, something that has persisted since pre-guild fall.

@Tex

That's from a lack of effort than people "playing to win" and if you, and your lot, cannot leave how others play alone then go back to whatever toxic section you came from.

Back in the days when I was especially active in Arena, there were plenty more threads with people who didn't care so much about winning as they did about the experience of combat.

@Tex

Well these aren't your days anymore and were never your days outside of guild. PVP has always been apart of the scene and a great many of us existed or still exist to play and win even if we don't like or agree with each other.

Those were the golden ages,

@tex

To you

even if there were still a ton of fuckboys who tried to abuse rules and the vagueness of RP to pull out victories. I should know, I was one of them. And I won a lot.

@Tex

And there's a lot of us who don't and can still win a lot.

The idea that PVP engagements are only about winning is entirely shortsighted.

@Tex

That's the entire point of one-off PVPs like the arena.

What's even worse is assuming that Combat roleplay is only about fighting one another. While the primary focus of combat role play is combat, the scenarios and terms of engagement are not limited to a narrow view of this particular subsection.

@Tex

That's the entire point of the arena subsection: it's for one offs and tournaments where players aren't totally invested in something longer than a page or two.

This pertains to 'competitive rule sets' as well. Rules in Arena and role play are nebulous restrictions that encourage a competitive atmosphere despite the inherent impossibility to make such an environment objective.

@Tex

Opinion

Writing combat that can flow well and achieve some level of coherency does not need to be competitive though, and that's my point entirely.

@Tex

It doesn't and you'll be right. It also doesn't mean it does have to be that way, and with a subsection for fighting: it isn't. You can always make a writing contest.

The idea that winning is all that matters is absolutely toxic,

@Tex

"STOP WINNING!"

even if there are viable competitive rules set up.

@Tex

The point of rules is to foster a standard most can agree to when engaging each other in a specific venue. These rules are made to protect the interest of one's self before the interest of others, because the self interest can inherently protect the others from abuse when implemented. This is why many competitive venues have rules: to keep people in-line and behaved and protect the talent therein.

Do you not want people that want non-competitive combat role-plays around here?

@tex

They can roleplay anywhere they want. I've said this before: instead of being an ideas guy just go do it. You don't need someone to hold your hand. You don't need the staff to write it up. Go ahead.

Just don't be disingenuous and tell others what "competition" is.

Are you focused on stagnating Arena even more? If so, Oh my god, wow, have fun with that, #bye.

@Tex

Good riddance. We don't need an emotionally charged argument. We were fine before your smug images. You want change? Go make it happen.

Arena Chat Thread

@tex

roleplayerguild.com/topics/170229-tzd…

I've accomplished more in this arena than you have being in this site for the arena. I think I have a better grasp at the arena than you do.

Arena Chat Thread

I've always been pretty decidedly neutral on leaderboards/achievements. I can see the argument for them but I can also see the argument against them. For me personally I think they can build something to work for but for other it can determine a "play to win" mentality which is one of the things we talked about Arena having that outsiders/newcomers don't like.

@Inkarnate

PVP and competition is all about playing to win. There is no other way to play and saying otherwise is disingenuous, and if new players cannot understand this basic concept then don't come to the arena or participate in tournaments.

There is no other reason to play fighting games, card games, compet FPS, or any of it but to win and do your best.

Arena Chat Thread

Fair point. But in regards in this place? Your tournament is the only one I know of on here that's actually finished. I'm just saying, people keep trying to suggest running a tournament as if that'll fix this Arena's problem even though that experiment has already been attempted by them. I'm saying what they really need is a legitimate overhaul and start incorporating NEW ideas instead of thinking they already got this thing figured out.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”- Albert Einstein

@Dias Blade

I feel you on the rest just that one statement alone was my only gripe, but then as I said to you in discord "who is going to run it?" Usually the idea guys toss about things they want to see but don't make the conscious effort in exerting themselves into making it a reality. Then they pass up on a particular idea that's incredibly similar in nature to their own proposition and some even think winning = toxic.

At this point you just ignore them and move on. Rilla had the right idea: if you want something go do it.

Arena Chat Thread

Zero infrastructure. Your answer isn't in yet ANOTHER friggen tournament... God, someone please stop that trend. Its like beating a dead horse around here. Tournaments and Safe Spaces don't build community.

@Dias Blade

That's where you're wrong. It built my community and it's slowly growing. I just have the wherewithal to capitalize on it and do a lot of the work-load to make things happen.

Arena Chat Thread

<Snipped quote by Tojiko>

Events, yes. More exclusivity and elitism (or the appearance thereof), definitely not. We need people to want to be here, telling them they're not good enough achieves the opposite of that. As has been discussed, people putting winning ahead of enjoyment make the arena a mor toxic, less pleasant place, and the rps themselves less fun. If a tournament were to take place here, players must have the mindset that winning is not the most important thing, which having a win barrier does not encourage.

---

Anyway, guys, I feel like whatever we decide upon, it has to enacted soon. Neglect seems to have been at least part of the cause of the problem, so agency is the solution.

@Ciaran

When did this happen? There was 3 tournaments and one hosted by Forkane from 2017 to now and I don't ever recall that being an issue.