tex

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

@Fabricant451

Oh sorry.

I probably wouldn't walk to my almost assured death, even as a psychopathic killer. There's some sense of self preservation there, is there not? So there's my answer. Anything but a brutal rampage.

But then, I wouldn't really know that I had plot Armour, would I? It works better as a rhetorical question, because then you can deny just how absolutely insane Beatrice's decisions would be in that context. But she is insane! So I guess it doesn't matter.

The absurdity of Kill Bill's world prevent Beatrice's actions from breaking immersion, especially since she is portrayed as a completely unreasonable psycho. But that doesn't quite change the fact that how she acted was absolutely ridiculous, just as the rest of the movie is absolutely ridiculous. My point is that Beatrice is insane. She's a psychopath. That's her character, and I don't criticize the movie for making those choices. I did remember it very differently though.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

So what you're doing is conflating your personal ideas about what traits are intrinsically positive or negative with feminist representation in film.

I wouldn't use the word intrinsically here. But yes. My thought reflection on feminism and Kill Bill are... My thought processes.

we are talking about the fact that the women in Kill Bill are largely treated and represented irrespective of their gender.

Are we? I think there's been some form of miscommunication, I'm afraid. If this were the case, I would have never bothered with this conversation in the first place.

If this is the only criteria needed to mark a film feminist, then I understand where you're coming from entirely, and I would agree completely. I assumed this could have been the case early on, but I was going about this discussion as if the topic at hand had some level of depth to it. That is entirely on me.

I suppose that a massive portion of media is indeed 'feminist' by that logic then. But like I've mentioned time and time again, I think this would make the label completely pointless. But therein lies my confusion as well. I'm arguing from the standpoint that Feminist media refers to texts that actively engage in a constructive dialogue about feminism. Otherwise, what's the point of labeling something as 'feminist' media? Wouldn't that be completely redundant? Absurd? Inane? I think it would be. What's there to be gained from slapping a feminist label on everything that vaguely matches this nebulous idea of feminism? Other than brand recognition, anyways.

My criteria are stricter than yours, to put it simply. Although I could call every single movie that features a homosexual character a LGBT movie, I wouldn't, because that would be silly. In this sense, our opinions differ.

I suppose a lot of this does stem from the fact that I don't have a concrete understanding of feminism. But it's like I mentioned from the start, feminism as an ideology is largely subjective as with any form of social science. I was initially going based off of what little I understood about feminism's political goals, which are very simple are hard to confuse. I mentioned this earlier, a few times, but maybe I should have been... Clearer? This is why I took the approach I did. From that perspective, one which I maintain mind you, I don't think Kill Bill should be labeled as a feminist movie.

@Fabricant451

Her actions make sense given the character and the world the movie presents.

..S...Sure...

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

@Fabricant451

I didn't know feminist film theory was a school of study, let alone what it implies to be core themes. That's my mistake. I would still disagree with the philosophy of feminist film theory as a whole if that were the case. But I suppose that's another topic of discussion entirely.

It also seems I don't remember the movie's plot as clearly as I thought. I could have sworn that the child played a major role, and assumed so under the pretense that, if it hadn't, then the main character's motivations suddenly become absurd. And they really are, even within the context of the film. Suddenly her quest to seek out and destroy the vipers is absolutely idiotic and spiteful. I don't think for a second that any notion of 'acquiring freedom' validates her choices as a character, at that point. But then the topic of conversation changes once again.

I would have to watch the movies again to confirm, but much of what comes of it would likely be nitpicking. Regardless, I still don't see it as a feminist film, nor do I see any value to labeling it as such. It's as I mentioned earlier, I think that the aforementioned criteria being used to label it as such are inane, and unproductive.

@Dynamo Frokane

But none of these things, (violence, revenge, personal justice) on their own run counter current to the idea of feminism

I... Disagree entirely. If themes like violence, Revenge, brutality, and Absurdity - all of which are extremely prominent in Kill Bill if I'm remembering that much correctly - do not run against the moral foundations of feminism, are you criticizing the movement as a whole? Isn't feminism, even as an ideology, about bringing women up to the same legal/social standing as men? I would say themes like this run in the exact opposite direction of feminist morals. If you would argue otherwise, I think we're in a baffling disagreement. Although I would associate themes like this with the feminist movement if I validated idiotic behavior, I don't think the movement is defined by particular forms of activism and incomprehensibly selfish morals. I think labeling these themes as neutral is extremely short sighted, and harmful. Clashing negative themes with ideas like the empowerment of women does not create a positive dialogue. They inspire a corrupt perspective. It may also be why the natural reaction to 'feminist themes' is negative, but that's another topic entirely.

why would violence. selfishness, justice go against feminism?

Violence should be obvious. Feminism's entire tone seems to shift over the years, but generally speaking, it existed to bring women up to the same legal/social standing as men. Whether or not you can actually manufacture a nebulous and short-sighted concept like 'social equality' is besides the point. In this case, violence acts as a direct counter to the goals set in place here. Would you argue the opposite is true? Or that Violence, when paired with feminism, has no effect on the effects as a result? I'm open to hearing more on that.

Selfishness is also contradictory to the united goal that feminism seems to portray. It is a movement directed to help - at least in its early stages - all women. So in what way do selfish goals enforce this idea? Wouldn't selfish behavior, in a similar fashion to violence, run against these goals? Or would you say that feminism is in fact a selfish movement? Or again, do you think that this has no effect?

Justice is a tricky topic. Inherently, I believe that justice is idiotic. There's nothing to be gained from justice, especially when it's hard to define what justice really is. Although I wouldn't argue that this runs counter to feminist themes, I do not feel that the justice being portrayed in Kill Bill is anything remotely reasonable. It is justice built on spite and revenge. I could see the reasoning here if the main character's motivations were supported by the love of her daughter, but when you eliminate that aspect, there isn't anything pushing her forward except for the narrow desire for revenge. The only reason that the movie works then, is because of how absolutely absurd the universe is.

This was the film's way of cleverly subverting the whole 'motherly instinct' trope.

Clever?

Caravan: Resurrection

Smor'Gen'Blok's Lower Tunnels, Kul Hearthsite
_{3rd of Summer - 10:23 AM}

Ha'Kul let out a long breathy sigh as his son began to question the situation. "Calm yourself, boy. This not a bad omen. We blessed with fall of Wor. Need not worry about Kul." He released his hand from the hearthstone, prompting a gentle flash that encapsulated the rock and improved its glow ten-fold. The chief stood up straight afterwards, and beckoned Za'Kul to follow him with a subtle head gesture and a grunt. "Wor Reputation lower than even lowest tribes in Smor'Gen'Blok. I not know why, not understand, but Wor'Boa target of all who he oppress. But Wor tribe not consumed entirely by the rage of pure bloods. Old tradition die with pure bloods, die with Wor'Boa." He stopped by his personal tent and turned around slowly to rest his body. After charging the hearthstone for the day, it would be a little while before his mind was completely clear of mental exhaustion. Ha'Kul shook the feeling off as best he could and rubbed his left temple.

"Survivors of Wor are not at fault for actions of pure bloods. But not my place to pick and choose who deserves life or death. We move to save survivors now. All pure blood will be thankful. Sure of it. Those not? They fight, and will die." The Chieftain's face tightened with regret. "Whoever responsible for collapse perform monstrous deed. But Wor's actions bring punishment. No amount of mercy stop brothers and sisters from such deeds. We left to pick up bits and pieces, rebuild trust, start anew. Lu'Li'Po not wish for Lok'Sha to treat each-other like beasts. We not beasts. We people. All people deserve help. All people can change."

Ju'Kul jogged across the hearth site as the chief finished talking, leaving the Wor survivors to rest and mourn their losses.

"Wor not restless. Sad, but comfortable. No Pure bloods among them." Ha'Kul nodded to his friend and turned back to Za'Kul.

"It is as I say, thankfully. Does this calm the mind, son?"

Baeshri Hills, West of Centaurus
_{3rd of Summer - 10:41 PM}

The Myti's shoulder pulsed with mana, dispelling Flin's attempt to grab her as she lunged forward on adrenaline and instinct alone, following Daelin and using his backward momentum to easily topple him to the ground, pinning him as best she could. Before the wind could surround her and separate the woman from Daelin, both of them hit the ground with a heavy thump. The fired arrow plunged into her hip, piercing through flesh and bone and exiting through the opposite side of her body. It was true what they said about Myti, they were a fragile sort of creature. But her exceptional speed put her in a position to execute Daelin at a moment's notice. She brought her dagger back towards his throat despite the parry, and held it firmly. If she let up even for a moment, her inferior strength would have her tossed aside easily.

_{'The plan'}

She didn't delay. Only a moment after Daelin's body hit the ground, the Myti's voice rang through Daelin's mind as a blaring shout.

"We have the girl. Tell them to stop."

Regardless of whether Daelin heeded her message or not, the Myti promptly began to funnel her mana through Daelin's nervous system. A psychic assault, something aimed to straight up force the man to lose consciousness. Myti were known for their exceptional mana control. If she wasn't disconnected from him quickly, it wouldn't matter if he listened to her warning.

Baeshri Pass, Caravan Centaurus
_{3rd of Summer - 11:02 PM}

Blake ignored Rem's words as he careened overhead, and flipped forward with his hammer prepped overhead. With a thunderous crash, he landed on the roof of the Caravan, and slammed his hammer into the reinforced flooring. As if it were made of balsa wood, it cracked and crumbled, flooding the inside of the caravan with shrapnel, and dislodging the lamp overhead. Zay fell from his bunk and landed hard on his side. Thankfully, his injuries had recovered due to Noru's earlier treatments, but he hadn't gotten much rest. Neal rose his hands overhead and blocked the falling debris from falling onto Pyra, but was in no position to shield anyone else.

"Captain! Outside!" Neal shouted as wooden splinters fell into the slots between his armor. Zay propped himself out and quickly rose to his feet, snatching the Key from the floor and unlocking the door to get out of the room.

Blake's cronies all took aim with their crossbows, ignorant of Rem's status as a druid. In rather perfect unison, they fired at him, sending a stream of bolts towards Rem. Blake, now standing on uneven ground, quickly spun towards the front of the caravan and prepped his hammer for another swing.

Berganfont, The Sewage Crevice
_{4th of Summer - 9:04 AM}

Matthew flinched at the Gibu's outburst. Is that what he was. He looked away nervously, and then eyed one of the gutter entrances that lead towards the surface of town. This thing was probably dangerous. It looked armed, and had terrible manners. But he wasn't really one to talk.

"Whatssa Gibu?" He asked quietly, inching around the small man. "Peter calls you little monsters greenies, cuz you're green, and envious. You steal potatoes and carrots and stuff cuz... Uh..." He racked his brain was absentmindedly glancing at his escape route ever other second. "Cuz you're hungry! Peter says it, must be true. His momma told him bout' how the greenies are evil little thieves that take whatever they want from whoever they want! And, and... You hide in the sewers at night!" He paused, remembering another name he heard for them at one point from Peter's big brother.

"Trash goblins!"

Northern Marrenfall, Gybol's Cafe
_{4th of Summer - 11:06 AM}

Nina caught on immediately, and froze in place. Her head craned towards the door, where she could see Gybol's hand and leg poking out just beyond the frame. Without a second thought, she dropped her spoon and sneaked her way out of the building through the back entrance. It wouldn't take too long to find a guard this early in the morning. At least, that's what she hoped for.

"You're a stubborn one," he scoffed, "I just wanted a little privacy. She would have been fine." The man slowly tiled his body to the side and groaned before returning to his upright position. It sounded like the girl had run off to deal with the parcel Gybol mentioned. With a moment alone with Gybol, he smiled and lowered his head. "My name is Richard Barnaby. I suspect you've heard of my father if you're keen on books." His eyes fluttered up a few times between words. Richard's father, Hubert Barnaby, was a man famous for his books on Marrenfall's culture and economical climate. He was also responsible for heading major revolutions in mana-forged technology in the southern sprawl of Marrenfall, including the invention of the MCA (Mana Collision Apparatus) which improved the efficiency of mana storage. "That artifact you wield is a trinket devised in the late 1200's of the third era. It is called a Soul Locket. It took researchers twenty years to figure out exactly what they're capable of, but that's besides the point." Richard leaned back and pushed the tray forward slightly to make room for his hands. "There are only two of those wretched things in existence, that I know of. One of them is in my possession, as you can clearly see. The other was taken by a colleague of mine." Richard glared at Gybol's locket momentarily, and then met his eyes again. "I'll spare you any further detail on the situation and cut straight to the chase, mister Gybol. Did you kill a man by the name of Jakob Stein?" He tightened his smile and lowered one of his arms to his waist.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

@Fabricant451

Although I don't think that Bill's actions ever infringed on Beatrice's ability to make choices of her own volition, save for the moment when he tried to have her killed, I can see where the line's being drawn. What I don't understand is how this correlates with the tone and additional themes to construct an effective dialogue on feminism, whether it be in support, descriptive, what-have-you.

The story was never about Beatrice regaining or emphasizing her independence, it revolved around protecting her daughter. Bill's jealous attempt on her life does not make him an appropriate analogue for reasonable feminist issues. It makes him an abusive ex, a person who seeks control not because he wants to manipulate women, but because he's a vindictive douche that wants to validate his own emotions. Of course, he's shown to be in the wrong, simply because his reason for revenge was unjust.

Gender does not play a major role in the plot of Kill-Bill. The only possible thing you could relate to Tarentino's reason for making the main character a woman, is the motivation of her wanting to rescue her child. Remove the child, and suddenly everyone in the movie is a vindictive douche with shitty motivations. Suddenly, the main character is an absolute fucking moron and has no reasonable motivation to go around murdering her former colleagues. That child is the key to why Kill Bill isn't a completely stupid movie.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

<Snipped quote by tex>

Which core themes are you referring to?

@Dynamo Frokane

Based on memory, the most blaring and obvious theme of the movie is revenge. Absurdity, Justice - albeit extremely negative as with most, if not all of Tarantino's films - Brutality, selfishness, and if you really dig for it, possibly independence. But considering that the main character has been independent from the starting line, and there isn't any focus there, I don't think it garners attention or acts as an defining theme. But I haven't seen the movies in a long time, so yeah.

@Fabricant451

That's the thing, I would be hard pressed to think up many movies that I've watched and remembered that have strong feminist themes. One movie that comes to mind is Her (2013) where the female protagonist is quite literally an object that exists for the purpose to serve the main character. The way that the movie portrays their developing relationship is a much better example of feminist themes being placed front and center.

spoiler

It all comes down to these AI's, the objects of the story, becoming independent after a stream of scenarios that ultimately push them away from humanity. In this example, the analogue for women is Samantha as an AI, or AI as a whole. But even here, it's hard to argue that feminist themes are the primary focus of the movie.

Although I haven't watched it, Ex-Machina, from the sound of it, sounds like a much better example considering the context of its plot.

The more I think about it, the less important feminist themes in media really are, honestly.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

I believe that in order to label any media as 'feminist', it should actively play upon feminist themes, using them as focal points of their story.

That's exactly why I think it's inane to label movies like Kill Bill as feminist, when the core themes are so far south of feminism that it's laughable.

The most I'd concede to is that some of Kill Bill's themes can be correlated with vague feminist ideologies. But I still believe that an argument should be made to defend this, in this case.

Movies that put feminist themes front and center, and use them in conjunction with the narrative, tone, etc. to construct a dialogue on feminism, or society's reaction to feminism. From there, it's an argument of how one defines 'feminist themes'.

Caravan: Resurrection

Smor'Gen'Blok's Lower Tunnels, Kul Hearthsite
_{3rd of Summer - 10:22 AM}

Ha'Kul and Ju'Kul exchanged a brief look. The chief nodded, and his larger friend quickly directed the newcomers towards the other end of the cave where a small patch of vacant space was available. Za'Kul's father kept one hand on the hearth as he spoke, while the Wor tribesmen followed Ju'Kul away from the two, leaving them alone to speak.

"I dispatched many to tunnels below Wor tribe to find survivors," he said quietly, "None know who responsible for explosion. But definitely happen from beneath. Definitely sabotage from Low tribes." He paused and looked over the where Ju'Kul stood. "You do well to bring survivors... What of Wor'Boa and son?" He looked back to Za'Kul with worry in his eyes. "They alive?"

Baeshri Hills, West of Centaurus
_{3rd of Summer - 10:41 PM}

Hyo Loila clutched the handle of her dagger so tightly that the leather grip began to warp. As soon as Daelin stepped within range of the woman, she acted. It was a two-fold sneak attack from right in front of him, fired from the darkness as her body slowly faded into view.

Hyo leaped at Daelin from a crouch, aiming the claws of her left hand to plunge into his left shoulder, while she thrust her dagger towards his chin from below, hoping to tackle him to the ground if her first strike was not a lethal blow. Noru noticed straight away, but didn't have any offensive options that he was willing to execute in that exact moment. He didn't bother calling out to warn him either. By the time he noticed the Myti from where he stood, it was already too late to say anything.

Baeshri Pass, Caravan Centaurus
_{3rd of Summer - 11:01 PM}

Blake's Venbu was unresponsive to Rem's call. With a smile, its rider stood up straight on top of the massive beast and pulled out his war hammer with both hands. For a human, he stood exceptionally tall and wide, with muscles that bulged from every part of his body. As soon as they were close enough to execute his plan, Blake kicked the back of Crooked Jaw, prompting him to skid to a halt, and launch the rider high into the air, above Rem and the Caravan. The men in the cart behind him, 3 in total, all jumped out a moment earlier. They were all equipped with similar blades and crossbows, but one of them wielded a strange staff that had a loop in its handle with a glimmering trigger placed within.

When Rem warned Neal, he immediately stood to attention. Zay awoke in a daze, but didn't leave his bunk.

"Wuh?" The captain mumbled. Neal slapped him a few times across the face until his eyes show open and the flailed the larger man's arm away. "What- Ow, ow! Ok, I'm up, I'm up!"

"I think we're under attack," Neal grunted, snatching Zay's key and slamming the door shut, "Best leave it to him, but if things go awry, we need to retreat." Zay blinked. Under attack? Again? Retreat? On foot? Leave it to him? Leave it to who?

"Uh...."

Berganfont, Lilith's Keg
_{4th of Summer - 9:04 AM}

"Myron's fine," Lilith grunted, "Looks like he's gonna get himself caught up in the Black Cathedral's higher politics or whatever. I don't want anything to do with that-" Lilith rubbed the counter top harder with each word, suddenly stopping and pulling her hand back, "ouch!" She'd hurt herself somehow. The woman looked at Shane and rolled her eyes, retreating into the back room.

A few moments later, Peter hopped up on a step stool behind the bar, and carefully placed a plate of vegetables on the table.

"Done!"

Berganfont, The Sewage Crevice
_{4th of Summer - 9:04 AM}

Matthew lowered the pouch into his lap slowly, and wiped his face clean. Seeing Vizz was a surprise, but Matthew didn't react like most might've. He just listened, wide-eyed as Vizz went on about his haul. He looked down at his pouch, and then back at the weird little man in front of him before standing up. Matthew was taller than Vizz. Eldi were pretty tall, but this was pretty ridiculous. This little green guy spoke and acted like an adult. What's more, he tried to convince him to hand over in exchange for an escape! At first, the kid wasn't fooled for a second. He narrowed his eyes at the Gibu's hand and put his pouch behind his back. He didn't even need help getting out of the crevice. He'd been down here plenty of times before! But if he wasn't mistaken, this creature before him was...

"You're a greenie, aren't you?" He asked bluntly, disregarding most of Vizz's words and ignoring his offer at a handshake, "Like... Like the ones that steal from the Castelis? The greenies who keep taking potatoes! You're one of those, aren't you?"

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

Again you said 'no self respecting feminist'

Did I? I don't recall using any language indicative of such, and that's certainly not a direct quote. Where did I say or imply that?

And what the hell does any of that have to do with feminism?

Nothing at all. Therein lies my point, that being that labeling Kill Bill as a 'feminist' movie is inane. If the central themes are so comprehensive and overwhelming, how could one associate this movie with feminist ideals based on one hyperbole of independence?

Which shows you don't understand the meaning of ad hominem

_{Haha, whatever you say, chief.}

No, its origins are in philosophy from Classical Liberal thinkers like Jeremy Bentham the term feminism was coined by Charles Fourier in 1837. The significant feminist movements came after the ideology.

I don't know what you mean by 'political body' there is no American Feminist Political Party so you comparing them to the Democratic party is just bizarre. If you're saying that feminism as a movement that has an effect and is affected by politics then, you are pointing out what can be applied to most 'movements'.

I actually didn't know that, apologies.

Feminism most certainly had a political body in the first wave movements, and it can be argued that some groups still act to push for political changes today. Core political feminist themes - those that can be taken seriously anyways, and those which I'm referring to - specifically deal with raising women to be on equal lawful standing with men. There's nothing bizarre about taking two groups who's members demonstrate the exact same trends and argue that there need to be changes in government policy, whether it's aiding women, men, homosexuals, or whatever.

you are pointing out what can be applied to most 'movements'.

Y..Yes. I am. Any movement or group(body) that has a political goal, is a political movement.

There's a lot of confusion that most face when attributing the feminist 'genre' to media, I think. If you consider the vast and nebulous array of feminist ideology, whether political or not, nearly anything featuring female leads can be considered 'feminist'. But then, wouldn't the definition lose purpose? That's exactly why I think it's inane to label movies like Kill Bill as feminist, when the core themes are so far south of feminism that it's laughable. It would be similar to coining Django unchained as a movie about 'slavery'. Django is absolutely riddled with themes about slavery but as you've mentioned, it isn't the main focus of the movie. But it's still very pertinent. Slavery motivates the character. Does feminism motivate Kill Bill's protagonist? I'd argue no, but if you can expand on:

I want to hear your reasoning behind this as I'm genuinely curious. Why are they feminist themes? What exactly makes them feminist themes to you? Why do you correlate these themes with feminism, instead of confidence, independence, or love, for example?

I'd be glad to hear your perspective. I'm still a little confused on what exactly you believe, or what you're arguing, when you're conceding to points like this:

...does suffragette have feminist themes? Yes probably...

By your own words, you would define it as a feminist film, right? That's essentially the argument you're making for Kill Bill, isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding you? Or could it be that you're picking and choosing the feminist themes that match your own understanding of of the topic?

You could argue that I'm doing the same thing, but I prefer to narrow the scope of what I'm referring to, as not to avoid making a flimsy argument based on conjecture. This is why I chose to use the political definitions of feminist goals/ideology. It's the only somewhat objective metric that I can refer to, as there are clear goals and philosophies to draw from. If I had to phrase it as an argument: feminist philosophy in regards to politics is more trustworthy than feminist ideology based on a nebulous conglomerate established over the course of 100 years. Though I would like to point out once again, that I am not rightly educated on feminist politics. I merely believe that differentiating between politics and the ideology behind those politics is important, and a good way to eliminate a lot of subjective integers.

The most I'd concede to is that some of Kill Bill's themes can be correlated with vague feminist ideologies. But I still believe that an argument should be made to defend this, in this case. You cannot simply state that the themes are 'feminist' based on an interpretation of a school of thought that is as conflicted and unclear as the feminist ideology, without also defending your interpretation. I'm mostly challenging the idea that 'kill bill is a feminist movie' because I still think that's an absurd notion. Are you arguing that the main character is a feminist? Or holds feminist ideals? Or that the subtext of the movie promotes feminist ideals? How so? Why? Is that more important than the other themes presented in the movie? Does that correlate with the tone? Does the narrative present it as such? How?

you are personally shocked that anyone would even make the arguments that I'm making.

I wouldn't say shocked, but I do think a lot of your arguments are based on your perspective and opinions alone. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it inherently weakens a position, and will ultimately corrode an argument with bias. It's also a habit that promotes the stagnation of ideas.

Your constant dismissing my opinions as inane

I'm sorry I've wanted to use this for a while

Opinions are like rocks. Everybody can have one, but they're totally worthless until you turn them into a house or a well, unless you want to bludgeon people to death with them. I confront them because I'm curious to see your reaction. Will you build a house? Or just start throwing them at me?

Ive seen you debate with others and it's rarely in this tone, so I can only conclude that this is because feminism is an important issue to you.

Is it? I'm fairly certain that I'm always very tactless when arguing. I think it encourages effort!

---

@Fabricant451
I certainly wouldn't consider Tarantino to be a producer of feminist film. Though maybe I'm confusing how people are using the terminology. I can agree that his films are certainly in line with feminist thinking, even from a political standpoint, but only in regards to equality. The issue I see is that these so-called feminist themes are not given any measure of focus. They're an afterthought and play second fiddle to the core themes of his movies.

It's like I'd mentioned. If we're associating ideals that have become common sense in the past two decades with every film that treats women like people, the label loses significance, and becomes completely inane. I believe that in order to label any media as 'feminist', it should actively play upon feminist themes as the focal point of its story. But at that point I guess it really is-

like fighting over calling it a shovel or a spade.

-which I think is an important distinction to make! Otherwise, we're just being reductive, and there's nothing to be gained from that.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

You keep bringing up brutal murder as if it's relevant.

It... It is... The brutality and sheer aggression of the main character's actions, even outside of the simple act of murder, is a significant part of her characterization, and by extension, the plot of the movie. It may even be one of the sole impacts on the movie's tone. To deny something like this is to completely disregard a significant portion of the movie's themes, characterization, plot, and tone. I believe this is called cherry picking.

Quentin having an explicitly feminist or non feminist agenda is also irrelevant.

I know. I said that already. Although I did misspell his name, to be fair.

Whether intentional or not, those ARE feminist themes.

I could just say 'no they're not' and be done with it, but I want to hear your reasoning behind this as I'm genuinely curious. Why are they feminist themes? What exactly makes them feminist themes to you? Why do you correlate these themes with feminism, instead of confidence, independence, or love, for example? Is it that you think those are also feminist themes simply because they refer to women? They're not, if that helps. To assert that would be kind of sexist, and sort of defeats the purpose of feminism entirely, imo.

I also find it strange that you would assert this ad hominem-

I can only come to the conclusion that you are conflating what you personally think feminists like and don't like and what a feminist theme is.

Only to make an outrageous claim like this straight afterwards.

Feminism is an ideology first, then a movement, both of which have obvious political implications but I'm not sure about categorizing feminism as a 'political body' any more than I would categorize 'men's issues' or 'egalitarianism' as a political body.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but feminism's origins stem from political activism. It was a movement centered around women's rights, and should still be considered a political body. To disregard this is just factually wrong. If one can categorize democrats as a political body, despite the vast majority of self-identifying democrats demonstrating behavior that does not line up with the party's goals or theories, then they should also recognize the feminist movement as thus. You cannot disregard the body of knowledge the feminism originates from, otherwise you doom the movement to being redundant and pointless. Which, honestly, I think is the case now. The movement has become largely redundant and pointless, but that doesn't mean that people should disregard its central theories and generalize it. That's just ill mannered and dishonest. From an argumentative standpoint, you are not addressing feminism as it should be addressed. You are addressing generalized rhetoric, which would in fact be conflating what you personally think with feminist theory. If I am in fact doing this as well, which I believe I am not, that would make your earlier assertion hypocritical at best.

Suffragette first and foremost a biopic about feminism, it obviously has the topic of feminism, but that on its own isn't the same as having a feminist story or exploring feminist themes

This makes no sense. You are quite literally saying that a movie that theoretically embodies first wave feminism in its entirety with due accuracy is not a feminist movie. That makes no sense. That is completely absurd. I don't think you have any grounds to claim that I'm conflating my personal beliefs on feminism with actual feminist philosophies, when you are clearly demonstrating a severe lack of education on the topic. I will be the first to admit that I am not particularly learned on feminist philosophy, but I don't think I'm ignorant of the core beliefs behind the political movement.

I'm also having trouble understanding your perception of Genre, topic, and themes. I hope you don't take offense to this, but I think you may be confusing these ideas.

it obviously has the topic of feminism, but that on its own isn't the same as having a feminist story or exploring feminist themes.

Here, you clearly differentiate between 'topic' and 'theme'. Since 'feminist' seems to also be a 'genre' from your perspective (and mine), you additionally differentiate between 'topic' and 'genre' as well. And then...

Also Django Unchained has slavery as a topic, but it's a Western, not a 'Slave Movie' like 12 years a slave or birth of a nation would be.

...you claim that topic and genre are the same, but different, but... Also the same?

If a movie that directly shows what slavery was like is considered a 'slave movie', which isn't exactly the genre I would first associate with it, then why isn't 'Suffragette' a 'feminist' movie when it accurately depicts first wave feminist actions and ideals? What is your thought process here? I'm confused as to what it is you're saying, exactly. Your understanding of Topic, Genre, Themes, and Feminism seems to be a little off. But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

aggressive and overly confrontational language,

Haha, what? Is it because I swore a couple times? Fuck, man.

passionate about feminism.

HAHA, WHAT?

I'm just confronting your ideas on the films being discussed. I'm curious to see if you can somehow rationalize the way that you think, so that I can better understand your perspective, and perhaps learn from it. If you don't want to try and validate your thoughts, simply dismiss my arguments and disregard me.