Sable said
Wait, hold on, video games are supposed to be art?

Keep the trolling to spam, Sable.

Frizan said
Keep the trolling to spam, Sable.

Snark =/= trolling. To elaborate, I understand that some video games can be art (though I've never seen or played one that I'd call art), the idea that video games as an aggregated whole are art is silly. Video games are popcorn entertainment. Describing them as an artistic medium struggling to be recognized as such is a false outlook on the industry.

Correction: I can think of video games that are art. Spec Ops: The Line and the original Bioshock are both art rather than simply video games, but they are art because they are art, not because they are video games. Point stands.

Sable said
Snark =/= trolling. To elaborate, I understand that some video games can be art (though I've never seen or played one that I'd call art), the idea that video games as an aggregated whole are art is silly. Video games are popcorn entertainment. Describing them as an artistic medium struggling to be recognized as such is a false outlook on the industry.Correction: I can think of video games that are art. Spec Ops: The Line and the original Bioshock are both art rather than simply video games, but they are art because they are art, not because they are video games. Point stands.

They are as much art as movies are. I'd say the mass effect trilogy is as much art as Citizen Kain was. (At least until the last five minutes of ME3). When movies were new, they were not considered art. When photography was new, it was not considered art. Video Games are new, the old guard of art does not see it as art.... Yet.

Dipper said
They are as much art as movies are. I'd say the mass effect trilogy is as much art as Citizen Kain was. (At least until the last five minutes of ME3). When movies were new, they were not considered art. When photography was new, it was not considered art. Video Games are new, the old guard of art does not see it as art.... Yet.

Mass Effect is on the same level as Citizen Kane. Really.

You've either never watched Citizen Kane before, or you have a very weird understanding of what makes something art.

Edit: On top of that, the vast majority of film is not art. Art house film is a niche in the industry. Mass Effect is the Avengers of video gaming, not the Melancholia or Punch-Drunk Love.

Sable said
Mass Effect is on the same level as Citizen . Really.You've either never watched Citizen Kane before, or you have a very weird understanding of what makes something art.Edit: On top of that, the vast majority of film is not art. Art house film is a niche in the industry. Mass Effect is the Avengers of video gaming, not the Melancholia or Punch-Drunk Love.

Spam is that way, Sable. You really gotta work on trolling harder. People can have differing opinions than you. Art is art.

And you are right. ME isn't Citizen Kain of gaming, Dwarf Fortress is.

Dipper said
Spam is that way, Sable. You really gotta work on trolling harder. People can have differing opinions than you. Art is art.And you are right. ME isn't Citizen Kain of gaming, Dwarf Fortress is.

Coherence isn't really your strong suit, I see, but fear not, I'll push on.

You're clearly not interested in hearing what I have to say, but I find that people are very big on what they have to say. Nothing like hearing your own voice.

So let me ask you a question. Why do you want video games to be considered art? What does the industry gain from it?

Sable said
Coherence isn't really your strong suit, I see, but fear not, I'll push on.You're clearly not interested in hearing what I have to say, but I find that people are very big on what they have to say. Nothing like hearing your own voice.So let me ask you a question. Why do you want video games to be considered art? What does the industry gain from it?

Please forgive my lack of coherence. 25 hours since I last slept, and I won't be able to sleep for 11 more hours. Don't be an asshole.

I am interested in what you have to say, but "lol you guys think games are art" is something I hear constantly. Forgive me for being sick of that.

That's two questions, math obviously isn't your strong suit I see, but fear not, I'll answer both.

I want video games to be considered art so that the government won't be able to regulate it. The industry would have more freedom, and thusly be able to create higher quality games.

Let me ask you two questions. Why do you want video games to not be considered art? What does the industry have to loose from it being considered an artform?

Sable said Snark =/= trolling. To elaborate, I understand that some video games can be art (though I've never seen or played one that I'd call art), the idea that video games as an aggregated whole are art is silly. Video games are popcorn entertainment. Describing them as an artistic medium struggling to be recognized as such is a false outlook on the industry.Correction: I can think of video games that are art. Spec Ops: The Line and the original Bioshock are both art rather than simply video games, but they are art because they are art, not because they are video games. Point stands.

And you got your movies like Transformers, no well story or character development. It's all meant for lulz and having a blast with explosions.

Just because some games don't take themselves serious doesn't excuse it from being art, otherwise movies, books, or any other art form wouldn't be seen as art either.

Sable said Why do you want video games to be considered art? What does the industry gain from it?

Because it's an even stronger narrative tool than Movies because the audience actively engaged in the experience rather than simply watching it happen.
It make you question yourself, and look at things in ways that movies and books never could.

Dipper said
Please forgive my lack of coherence. 25 hours since I last slept, and I won't be able to sleep for 11 more hours. Don't be an asshole.I am interested in what you have to say, but "lol you guys think games are art" is something I hear constantly. Forgive me for being sick of that.That's two questions, math obviously isn't your strong suit I see, but fear not, I'll answer both.I want video games to be considered art so that the government won't be able to regulate it. The industry would have more freedom, and thusly be able to create higher quality games.Let me ask you two questions. Why do you want video games to not be considered art? What does the industry have to loose from it being considered an artform?

I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything, so I'm going to give you a suggestion. You might wind up agreeing with me.

Film and video games are actually very similar with regard to this art thing. The vast majority of both are not art. There is a niche market for artistic products in each.

I posit that video games as artwork would be similar to film as artwork. Art house video games, if you will. You seem to be under the impression that video games as art is an all or nothing deal, which it's not. Not all movies are art films, not all books are literature, and no matter how badly you want it, Mass Effect will never be labeled as art because art is not a label you can slap on to something. I could try to explain why this is and what makes art what it is, but that would take a very long time and I would be restating something that's been explained elsewhere by more eloquent and informed people. If you want a detailed analysis of this, Roger Ebert, Hideo Kojima, Michael Samyn, Aureia Harvey, and others have spoken and written about the issues of video games as art in great detail. I suggest reading them.

Back to the suggestion, art house video games will have certain definable traits, likely similar to art house films.

So watch The Tree of Life. Watch Melancholia. Watch Punch-Drunk Love and a dozen Werner Herzog films and then come back here and tell me that you want a video experience similar to those films. I guarantee that if video games were predominantly artistic you wouldn't be playing video games.

"But Sable, artistic video games won't necessarily be like that."

Bullshit, I'd reply, because every single person in this thread can name an art house video game made by one Zoe fucking Quinn. Yeah, Depression Quest is art. Shitty art. Christ-upside-down-in-a-jar-of-piss level art, but it's an art house video game and it fucking blows.

As for more freedoms for the industry, you're pulling that out of your misinformed ass. As far as you understand it, I think, film is considered art and yet still heavily regulated through the law. Video games will be no different.

TL;DR: Video games are a medium for artistic expression, but the closer you get to video games being artwork the worse, less popular, and less marketable they'll get, because no one wants to play Melancholia: The Video Game. I'll take my popcorn entertainment Grand Theft Auto V over that shit any day if the week, because it is popcorn entertainment, and that's not a bad thing. It might just be the best part about video games.

So art can't be entertaining? Video games are art, in my opinion - Even shitnlike Depression Quest. Most art sucks anyway, ever brouse deviant? Most of that is shit, but its still art.

Sable said As for more freedoms for the industry, you're pulling that out of your misinformed ass.

Actually no.

Let's look at a topic or theme such as say... The Holocaust.
A horrid event where millions of people were systematically rounded up, worked and killed simply for their race, religion, sexuality or mental disorder.

We have people alive today who are survivors of such an event, it is a sensitive topic to many people. But we have many books and movies based on it, books and movies are allowed to be made about such topics because they are respected as forms of art. But what would happen if a Video Game tried? People would outrage, they'd attack the field for claiming it's making a 'game' or joke out of a seriously matter. Trivializing it to joysticks, and button presses.

But if Video Games were seen and respected as another art form then it wouldn't have such scrutiny, it could tackle those sensitive topics the the same way Movies and Books could.

Magic Magnum said
Actually no.Let's look at a topic or theme such as say... The Holocaust.A horrid event where millions of people were systematically rounded up, worked and killed simply for their race, religion, sexuality or mental disorder.We have people alive today who are survivors of such an event, it is a sensitive topic to many people. But we have many books and movies based on it, books and movies are allowed to be made about such topics because they are respected as forms of art. But what would happen if a Video Game tried? People would outrage, they'd attack the field for claiming it's making a 'game' or joke out of a seriously matter. Trivializing it to joysticks, and button presses.But if Video Games were seen and respected as another art form then it wouldn't have such scrutiny, it could tackle those sensitive topics the the same way Movies and Books could.

Part of this is the interactive aspect to it. A movie is something you experience, a game is usually something you win, or for which there are victory conditions and points and so on and so forth. It's not the content, it's the fact that the medium is a video game, something you play.

On top of that, it's called a video game. A game. Does the Holocaust sound like a fun game to you? No, and the public would be outraged. Don't act like it's some sort of injustice that the industry's name makes it sound trivial.

Semantics, Sable. That's all you are arguing right now. :|

Sable said Part of this is the interactive aspect to it. A movie is something you experience, a game is usually something you win, or for which there are victory conditions and points and so on and so forth.

Have you ever played To The Moon? The Walking Dead?

Those are not games with things to 'win'. The closest you got is...

To The Moon: Fulfilling a dying mans dream to experience landing on the moon before dying, while repairing his love life.
The Walking Dead: To protect a young girl named Clementine and watch her grow up, see the horrors of survival come out the other side stronger for it, but hopefully still caring and compassionate.

Sable said It's not the content, it's the fact that the medium is a video game, something you play.

A more accurate term would be "Interact".
You Interact with the world, you interact with the environment, you interact with the characters.

You experience it, you make choices. That's the power that Video Games have that Movies and Books don't, interaction.

Sable said On top of that, it's called a video game. A game. Does the Holocaust sound like a fun game to you? No, and the public would be outraged. Don't act like it's some sort of injustice that the industry's name makes it sound trivial.

And this is exactly the "Not respected as an art form" thing I was referring to. You're choosing to downplay it as a game, rather than see it as an art form.
As a result you are getting offended by the topic being in a Video Game, rather than being able to enjoy it like a movie based on the same topic.

For example, let's look at TV Shows. Keyword: Show.

Does the Holocaust sound like a fun show to you? No, and the public would be outraged. Don't act like it's some sort of injustice that the industry's name makes it sound trivial.

Magic Magnum said
Have you ever played To The Moon? The Walking Dead?Those are not games with things to 'win'. The closest you got is...To The Moon: Fulfilling a dying mans dream to experience landing on the moon before dying, while repairing his love life.The Walking Dead: To protect a young girl named Clementine and watch her grow up, see the horrors of survival come out the other side stronger for it, but hopefully still caring and compassionate.A more accurate term would be "Interact".You Interact with the world, you interact with the environment, you interact with the characters.You experience it, you make choices. That's the power that Video Games have that Movies and Books don't, interaction.And this exactly the "Not respected as an art form" thing I was referring to. You're choosing to downplay it as a game, rather than see it as an art form. As a result you are getting offended by the topic being in a Video Game, rather than being able to enjoy it like a movie based on the same topic.For example, let's look at TV Shows. Keyword: Show.Does the Holocaust sound like a fun show to you? No, and the public would be outraged. Don't act like it's some sort of injustice that the industry's name makes it sound trivial.

It's a marketing problem, not some sort of injustice against video games. Dress up your holocaust video game as an "interactive visual experience" or something and you're home free. Problem solved.

Whatever, though, I'm out. Have fun with your echo chamber, guys.

I'm agreeing with Sable here.

Like movies, Games don't' need to be considered art to be good, guys, come on. Plus, Walking Dead is not exactly a game in the same context as others games. It's an interactive story. You want art as games? indie Games come very close, and even then it's a 50/50 gamble on whether they are "Decent" let alone good.

Video Games as Popcorn entertainment, as an emotional experience without the dumb "Message hollier than Thou" bullshit. They DONT need to be art. Not fully anyway, the OST, and the Designs can be considered art on their own merit, and that's good enough for me.

Darog the Badger God said Like movies, Games don't' need to be considered art to be good, guys, come on.

No. I'm sorry, if a game like Homeworld 2 or Bastion doesn't get to be art because the entire industry got thrown out of being considered art because some games aren't art is ridiculous. Some books are straight up pornography, does that mean we should no longer protect books as art? Some art is straight up five year old noodle drawings about penises, again, does that mean we should stop considering art as something sacred that needs protecting from censorship?

Sable is completely and utterly wrong here. Games are art. They are more than capable of being a form of human expression and have blatantly displayed that time and time again. They're capable of visual marvels and churning out beautiful stories. Now, I know you like Jade Empire, so imagine if Jade Empire never got to be a thing because it features a lesbian romance in the game at a time where homosexuality was still extremely volatile in the United States. Imagine if Jade Empire had to remove all mentions of eastern mythology Gods because it might offend some of its eastern audience in how it portrays them. Etc.

We consider games an artistic medium because it protects them from censorship, and allows us to explore potentially sensitive narratives within the context of gameplay. The shit-tier games get left behind and the stuff of legends gets propped up to the top. Not considering games an artistic medium would be insane and would open the doorway to do the same to movies and books, slowly eroding one of the few bastions of true freedom of expression we still have.

Brovo said
. I'm sorry, if a game like Homeworld 2 or Bastion doesn't get to be art because the entire industry got thrown out of being considered art because some games art is ridiculous. Some books are straight up pornography, does that mean we should no longer protect books as art? Some is straight up five year old noodle drawings about penises, again, does that mean we should stop considering art as something sacred that needs protecting from censorship?Sable is completely and utterly wrong here. Games art. They are more than capable of being a form of human expression and have blatantly displayed that time and time again. They're capable of visual marvels and churning out beautiful stories. Now, I know you like Jade Empire, so imagine if Jade Empire never got to be a thing because it features a lesbian romance in the game at a time where homosexuality was still extremely volatile in the United States. Imagine if Jade Empire had to remove all mentions of eastern mythology Gods because it might offend some of its eastern audience in how it portrays them. Etc.We consider games an artistic medium because it protects them from censorship, and allows us to explore potentially sensitive narratives within the context of gameplay. The shit-tier games get left behind and the stuff of legends gets propped up to the top. Not considering games an artistic medium would be insane and would open the doorway to do the same to movies and books, slowly eroding one of the few bastions of true freedom of expression we still have.

Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say Brovo, better than I ever could hope to.

Dipper said
Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say Brovo, better than I ever could hope to.

[2]

It was an argument I tried to get across with the Holocaust and Transformer movie examples, but Brovo's worded it far better than I could.

Sable does have a point, Its the interactive side of games that causes the issue most of the time with sensitive topics.
to give it another parallel, take 'Passion of the Christ' that copped a hell of a lot of flack as a movie, a purely passive experience. Can you imagine the outrage from the christian community if it was made into a game where the player played a part in any of it? it could be the best made game of all time, flawless graphics, seamless gameplay, bug free etc, the backlash alone would kill it faster than you could say 'but its a game...'

The interactivity element is the same angle used by the anti-violence games crowd because doing something even virtually is typically more impactfull than just observing.

I don't say I agree with it myself, but I am perfectly capable of seeing the other side of it and understand why some people object.