I see what he's saying as well, Gat, but I believe that he's dead wrong.

Art doesn't need praise or acclaim to be art- It needs to touch the soul of the viewer- something I'm sure any gamer will say games do.

Brovo said
. I'm sorry, if a game like Homeworld 2 or Bastion doesn't get to be art because the entire industry got thrown out of being considered art because some games art is ridiculous. Some books are straight up pornography, does that mean we should no longer protect books as art? Some is straight up five year old noodle drawings about penises, again, does that mean we should stop considering art as something sacred that needs protecting from censorship?Sable is completely and utterly wrong here. Games art. They are more than capable of being a form of human expression and have blatantly displayed that time and time again. They're capable of visual marvels and churning out beautiful stories. Now, I know you like Jade Empire, so imagine if Jade Empire never got to be a thing because it features a lesbian romance in the game at a time where homosexuality was still extremely volatile in the United States. Imagine if Jade Empire had to remove all mentions of eastern mythology Gods because it might offend some of its eastern audience in how it portrays them. Etc.We consider games an artistic medium because it protects them from censorship, and allows us to explore potentially sensitive narratives within the context of gameplay. The shit-tier games get left behind and the stuff of legends gets propped up to the top. Not considering games an artistic medium would be insane and would open the doorway to do the same to movies and books, slowly eroding one of the few bastions of true freedom of expression we still have.

Aside from the fact that critics in favor of video games as art are few and far between, aside from the fact that interactivity and video games' need to pander to the masses detracts from its artistic value, there is a problem with the universalizing phrase "video games are art" just because they are forms of human expression.

Twilight is a form of human expression, do you call that art? What about the products of my kindergarten finger painting lessons? Is that shit art? Because that's the implication of saying all games are art. Arguing for protection as an artistic medium is a completely different argument, and not the one I'm making here. Protecting video games as an artistic medium? Fine, whatever, but don't tell me that I can hit record, squat in front of a camera and take a shit and call it art.

Two different arguments. And on top of that, absolute disrespect of any criticism. "Sable is absolutely wrong." I compromised and admitted there was potential for video games to be art. What have you done to actually have a conversation instead of stroking the dude to your left in your circlejerk? Fuckouttahere with that mouth breathing fedora shit.

You seem to forget a few things when you say "most critics dont see video games as art"
1)For a long time, photography was not considered art
2) For a long time, movies were not considered art either.

And yet you say that because that video games, which, in all honesty, are still in their infancy, are not considered art by critics, they are not art.

Well excuse me, who gave you and others like you the power to decide what is and is not art? Ooooh, look, you can say "This isn't art!" I can run into a art gallery and yell that, but that won't make it true.

Also, Sable, why are you so... Well, pissed about how you can't convince a couple of people to start going back on what they believe by compromising? Refusing to back down on what you believe because someone is being an asshole and telling you "WHAT YOU THINK IS WROMG AND YOU ARE STUPID FOR THINKING IT!!!!!" Isn't a circle jerk. (Also,who the fuck jerks to the left in a circle jerk? Freaks.)

Your 'but I wanted to compromise, you need to agree with me now!" Arfuement is called Argument to moderation and is a... you guessed it, a logical fallacy. 0/10 Keep trying.

Anyway, we were successfully derailed. Damn.

Watch this guys, its pretty.. Well, explains GamerGate pretty well. Plus, she's hot. Dat accent, dem lips.

Sable said Aside from the fact that critics in favor of video games as art are few and far between,

Doesn't matter in the face of the law, which overwhelmingly supports the idea of Video Games being an art form, right down to the US Supreme Court repeatedly shooting down attempts to consider it anything less than that. The voice of critics is also overwhelmingly drowned out by the millions of people who play video games and report emotional reactions and personal experiences that stay with them. One prominent example that comes to mind is how people react to various parts of the Mass Effect series, such as the death of Mordin Solus.

Sable said aside from the fact that interactivity and video games' need to pander to the masses detracts from its artistic value,

Since when is this a legitimate criticism? That's like saying that Trucks aren't motor vehicles because they have a trailer on them which harkens back to the good ole medieval days.

Sable said there is a problem with the universalizing phrase "video games are art" just because they are forms of human expression.

No there isn't. They are art. The definition of art as per the Oxford Dictionary.

(Link) [mass noun] The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power:

Let me underline that part for you in case you miss it: The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination.

Sable said Twilight is a form of human expression, do you call that art? What about the products of my kindergarten finger painting lessons? Is that shit art?

Yes. It is. You seem to be under this misunderstanding that art requires some profound message or revelation... It doesn't. Even Call of Duty is technically art, though I don't think it's particularly well done, the narrative suffers cognitive disconnect from the game-play so hard that it's sometimes downright racist hilarious... However, my dislike of Call of Duty doesn't then invalidate others who enjoy it, who enjoy seeing all the set pieces made by artists.

Sable said Because that's the implication of saying all games are art.

Yep. Because it is... Deal with it.

Sable said Arguing for protection as an artistic medium is a completely different argument, and not the one I'm making here. Protecting video games as an artistic medium? Fine, whatever, but don't tell me that I can hit record, squat in front of a camera and take a shit and call it art.

Because arguments using insane extremes will totally sway people to your side.

Sable said Two different arguments. And on top of that, absolute disrespect of any criticism. "Sable is absolutely wrong."

You consider that disrespectful? Sir, that is basic debate. I state that I find your argument to be completely incorrect. However, I'm certain that you manage to maintain an element of civility that proves that we can get past this simple misunderstanding of tone which is often lost through the Internet.

Sable said I compromised and admitted there was potential for video games to be art. What have you done to actually have a conversation instead of stroking the dude to your left in your circlejerk? Fuckouttahere with that mouth breathing fedora shit.

Why is it that people always resort to this as a debate tactic...

The first one to start insulting the other one in the debate loses.

I go to sleep and wake up not only to see Sable guilty of multiple logical fallacies, but Dipper and Brovo already have highlighted all that out?
I miss a lot when sleeping...

Well not all of it though, I don't think anyone brought up the middle ground logical fallacy where someone is claiming truth/correctness simply by being in between the two opposing sides and/or because they are compromising.

@Dipper's vid: I can't really watch that atm, I'm in the middle of a skype call related to setting up a D&D campaign. Which I can still pay attention to when typing, but not when watching something. So I'll be sure to give it a watch, but later.

-site lag-

-Site lag-

Magic Magnum said
I go to sleep and wake up not only to see Sable guilty of multiple logical fallacies, but Dipper and Brovo already have highlighted all that out?I miss a lot when sleeping...Well not all of it though, I don't think anyone brought up the logical fallacy where someone is claiming truth/correctness simply by being in between the two opposing sides and/or because they are compromising.@Dipper's vid: I can't really watch that atm, I'm in the middle of a skype call related to setting up a D&D campaign. Which I can still pay attention to when typing, but not when watching something. So I'll be sure to give it a watch, but later.

Nope, that's called appeal to moderation as well, already called it. ;)

Dipper said
Nope, that's called appeal to moderation as well, already called it. ;)

Derp, I missed that. :/

InternetAristocrat came out with another video on it. :P

Ooh shit, I remember that kos guy. The 'player' one.

Here is a gem from the guy when presented with facts: "Your reality is wrong.' Its like we're fighting Cthulu.

But in reality, SJWs are a cult. Not like say, Scientology, (god I hated chanoogy. >.>) but in how they do group think, and just in general how they act.

There was a picture that showed that they literally met all but like, three of the 'definitions' usually used to see if something is a cult.

Also, the Girl m00t betrayed us over, his new girlfriend from Gawker? Pictures of her Facebook status and pictures got leaked - Within two weeks she turned him into a cuckhold beta male.

Dipper said But in reality, SJWs are a cult.

Not a cult. A misdirected venue for perceived injustices by brainwashed people who then use extreme methods to--... Okay, yeah, holy shit a cult.

Brovo said
Not a cult. A misdirected venue for perceived injustices by brainwashed people who then use extreme methods to--... Okay, yeah, holy shit a cult.

See what I'm saying? ;)

-edit-

Fuck it. When people throw the word Beta, traitor and cuckold around and expect to be taken seriusly, while calling another group for cultists. That's when irony is so thick in the air that you choke on it.

Brovo said Not a cult. A misdirected venue for perceived injustices by brainwashed people who then use extreme methods to--... Okay, yeah, holy shit a cult.

It's probably part of why people like Thunderf00t and TheAmazingAtheists are fighting against it.
They're seeing almost the exact same mentality and tactics they're used to seeing from extreme religious folk.

The Reddit Recordings

What are people's thoughts?

Hellis said
-edit- Fuck it. When people throw the word Beta, traitor and cuckold around and expect to be taken seriusly, while calling another group for cultists. That's when irony is so thick in the air that you choke on it.

Yeah, okay, you kow what, Hellis? m00t obviously isn't a traitor, I mean, going on about free speech soukd be protected and how you wont censor legal things and then suddenly going back against that because you make new friends and start dating someone so you can impress them isn't a betrayal of what you used to stand for, what was I thinking, silly me.

And having said girlfriend cheat on you will another guy without you knowing TOTALLY doesn't have anything to do with cuckoldery, while she has you carry her luggage for you whike you think you will maybe get laid becaue she's playing you like a fiddle doesn,t make you a beta! Shit, its almost like these definitions are reversed now!

In all seriousness, Hellis, each time you come back here, pretending that you are a moderate and trying to say "look at this gamers are dead article, obviously you guys are loosing, explained why you think you are winning" , and when we use sources to -show- you that we are winning, you dismiss them out of hand, and then show up a few days later, using the same disproven arguments again and again.

Its real pathetic that you obviously don't want to have discourse with us over this - you just want to prove that all gamers are misogenerds. "OH LOOK SOMEONE LIED UNDER #NOTYOURAHIELD, TIME TO PACK UO GUYS, ABANDON THAT HASHTAG." "OH, WELL MAYBE ANITA DID LIE ABOUT BEING HARASSED BY FAKING HER THREATS BUT WE ALL STILL NEED TO LISTEN AND BELIEVE EVERYRHING SHE SAYS WITHOUT ANY DOUBTS"

And yet you act like us saying these people are acting like cultist is ironic? Give me a fucking break.

Magic Magnum said
It's probably part of why people like Thunderf00t and TheAmazingAtheists are fighting against it.They're seeing almost the exact same mentality and tactics they're used to seeing from extreme religious folk.

More like they're seeing Atheism+ 2.0, only in the gaming community.

At he same time, fuck Chira ( AA). Told a woman who was raped that she deserved it and it was a pity that she survived it, and then threatened to rape her himself over reddit. When the backlash happened, he tried to say sorry other in private because he's too proud to admit he's an asshole.

Hell, he got kicked from Team TGWTG for being a dick to everyone.

Also if he's in on it, its because he despises feminists and actually is a misogynistic asshole.

Izaka Sazaka said
What are people's thoughts?

I think that it is crazy, and I'm seriously going insane with all this, that it is just a strange fever dream.

I'm also getting burnt out, fighting SJWs on tumblr and twitter as well as here is starting to cause me to loose my patience and cool more often than before. Need an example, see above rant at Hellis.

I've had several friends get doxxed because of this, and I myself have been partially doxxed - My cell is getting called/texted to by people telling me to stop talking about GamerGate, as well as my email/Facebook being spammed by angry cultists, within people sending messages on tumblr telling me I need to look after my little siblings,or something might happen to them, with links to their Facebook pages.

Yeah, okay, no. Slap incoming.

Dipper said Yeah, okay, you kow what, Hellis? m00t obviously isn't a traitor, I mean, going on about free speech soukd be protected and how you wont censor legal things and then suddenly going back against that because you make new friends and start dating someone so you can impress them isn't a betrayal of what you used to stand for, what was I thinking, silly me.

#1: 4Chan isn't a democracy. It's a fucking website run in a dictatorial fashion, just like this one. M00t's choosing to run it differently isn't a betrayal, it's simple hypocrisy. If you don't like it, leave. Also judging his personal life is a pretty low blow. It's called an Ad Hominem. If you ever want to be taken seriously, and have your points be treated with a degree of civility and intellectualism, stop doing this.

#2: Hellis' action was to leave because he didn't like the terminology you were using. Your action is to then spit at him. Yeah. That'll show him and everyone else how your side in this is one of maturity and honesty.

Dipper said And having said girlfriend cheat on you will another guy without you knowing TOTALLY doesn't have anything to do with cuckoldery,

It doesn't. Cuckolds get off only when they know about it... And there are people out there who don't get turned on about it and just don't really care if their SO is sleeping with other people.

Again. You're judging someone's personal relationships as a mark of their character. This isn't even remotely professional.

Dipper said while she has you carry her luggage for you whike you think you will maybe get laid becaue she's playing you like a fiddle doesn,t make you a beta!

#1: Spell check please. I'm having a hard time reading through your pathos-laden response.

#2: Sarcasm and dry wit are fine tools, I love using them. Nonstop usage of them makes them less witty and more pretentious. Just a piece of advice about the tone of your statements.

Dipper said Shit, its almost like these definitions are reversed now!

No. You got cuckold wrong, and you're judging a person's personal relationships because you think it makes them weaker or dumber or otherwise. Because they don't conform to what you think is properly masculine or socially correct. Which is hilarious coming from an obviously avid user of 4Chan.

The reason why I questioned Hellis was based on factual points. The reason I asked any questions here was on factual points. I stayed on target towards logic, and reason--also known as logos. This entire response thus far has been nothing but pathos. There's no logic or reason to follow here and the messy spelling is merely indicative of an emotional response to someone who literally just told you they weren't replying anymore because they didn't like the crap you spew. So what do you do? Spew more crap.

Do you see how this is self defeating?

Dipper said In all seriousness, Hellis, each time you come back here, pretending that you are a moderate and trying to say "look at this gamers are dead article, obviously you guys are loosing, explained why you think you are winning" , and when we use sources to -show- you that we are winning, you dismiss them out of hand, and then show up a few days later, using the same disproven arguments again and again.

I talk with Hellis regularly. That's not what he does...

Dipper said Its real pathetic that you obviously don't want to have discourse with us over this

Yes. How dare he walk away from a discussion after pointing out how you've been attacking the personal characters of other people. How pathetic is it that he's taken the high road of simply walking away because he can't find a way to compromise with you. This makes him a truly, awful person, totally.

You're a special kind of person.

Dipper said - you just want to prove that all gamers are misogenerds.

He is a gamer. Why the fuck would he try to prove that?

Dipper said "OH LOOK SOMEONE LIED UNDER #NOTYOURAHIELD, TIME TO PACK UO GUYS, ABANDON THAT HASHTAG."

Hey look. Making extremes out of an opponent's words. Again, this is not a mature way to have a conversation. Also, please, for the love of god, SPELL CHECK.

Dipper said "OH, WELL MAYBE ANITA DID LIE ABOUT BEING HARASSED BY FAKING HER THREATS BUT WE ALL STILL NEED TO LISTEN AND BELIEVE EVERYRHING SHE SAYS WITHOUT ANY DOUBTS"

Last I checked he wasn't telling anyone to believe everything Anita says blindly. He was simply listening to her points and bringing them up. I believe I retorted to them and displayed it clearly to him that she was (and still is) a con woman, and that there are other sources more reliable that portray his side better than she does. Again, you are misconstruing your opponent's position to reflect the emotional lashing out that you are doing right now.

Dipper said And yet you act like us saying these people are acting like cultist is ironic? Give me a fucking break.

Well it is. Why did you think I laughed at it? It's a joke. It's not a serious statement... Is it? Do you really think these people are cultists? Do you really think that everyone who waves the flag of social justice is one of these extremist wackos that wants to charge a white people tax or thinks that anyone who possesses the male anatomy is automatically a rapist? Do you really think that? Because if you do, you might want to step back for a while and reevaluate yourself. You're not doing your faction any favors. If anything, you've stared into the abyss, and now it's staring back at you.

The first rule of the fanatic is when you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy. These personal attacks and judging other people for their life styles and relationships has got to stop if you want to be taken seriously by anyone, myself included.

Oh, and stop portraying Hellis' disagreements with you as anything other than that while you're at it. It just makes you look all the more foolish.

Dipper said More like they're seeing Atheism+ 2.0, only in the gaming community.

Good point, I was tired enough at the time of writing that that I forgot about atheism+ completely for a moment there... Derp.

Dipper said At he same time, fuck Chira (AA). Told a woman who was raped that she deserved it and it was a pity that she survived it, and then threatened to rape her himself over reddit. When the backlash happened, he tried to say sorry other in private because he's too proud to admit he's an asshole.

TJ explained this in a video, it was years ago, he was in a fit of rage and had previous apologized for most of it as well. Plus as I highlighted way earlier in this thread to Hellis, the Internet tends to communicate in a far harsher/crueler way than most people in terms of word usage. It's just how people talk, they don't actually mean much harm by it usually. Hell he did admit that he was in the wrong back then, but this was many years ago for him, like I would have just been starting High School at the time (and I'm now in my 3rd year of college). People can change a lot and realize past mistakes in that time.

Dipper said Hell, he got kicked from Team TGWTG for being a dick to everyone.

I wouldn't treat a TGWTG/Channel Awesome record as suggesting anything. Spoony was banned too for a time, and it was for a joke he already apologized for far in advance. Only getting banned cause one of their members who happened to basically be a SJW chose to pick a fight with Spoony when he was in the middle of a scene/moment from depression and bi-polar.

I mean, Linkara, Nostalgia Critic, Linkara, I fucking love those guys they're amazing. But their channel isn't exactly the best moderated/ran place.

Dipper said Also if he's in on it, its because he despises feminists and actually is a misogynistic asshole.

(Below might start to look like an unrelated rant to TAA, but trust me it's relevant).

There was a time when one of the atheists group I was in was Dusty Smith's fan page on facebook, and eventually he just went power crazy. Took sole admin power, banned people left and right just cause "It's his group, he can do what he wants", and eventually started doxxing people who called him out, one of them was someone who tirelessly moderated Dusty's group for years singlehandedly asking for nothing in return. During all Dusty no doubt was making some scene about it with his YouTuber friends, because TAA came in to see what was going in. But he never came out and started bashing/attacking people for anything, instead he was kind, civil and discussed with people privately over what happened.

This led so when those of us sick with Dusty started a new group, TAA actually joined and does post on occasion. He actually is a really civil/decent person when not in front of the camera. Like he said in one of his latests videos about "Is TAA a character?", it kind of is but isn't. He isn't nearly as aggressive/relentless as his character is, but the anger about injustices is still there. But he is actually a very mature, rational and intelligent person if you've ever talked to him.

I mean honestly, outside of a few ancient remarks from him that he himself has already owned up for, what exactly is there to suggest that he's a misogynist?