Almost as if Batman were vulnerable and profoundly beatable he would less interesting. When the opposite is actually true.

To be fair, this is something a lot of comic adaptations get wrong. And on both sides of the ocean at that.

Thank God for Geoff Johns. It's refreshing to have someone that holds sway at DC harbouring a healthy disdain for Batman.

Superman and Batman are two sides of the same childhood power fantasy, just expressed in different ways. Where Superman has his powers, Batman has his gadgets. It all amounts to the same playground "Well, I win because I have X" mentality. And that's fine and a lot of comics are exactly that; I just wish Batman fanboys would cop to it, rather than pretending that their character is more well-rounded just because he gets a little bloody before winning via deus ex machina.

I'm personally a fan of Man of Steel. I prefer it to the Christopher Reeves movies and I'm a very big Superman fanboy. Yeah sure Supes wasn't as hopeful and wasn't able to save every single person in Metropolis but that was literally his first fight against a super villain in his entire life. And the criticism over supes killing Zod is a little dumb because Reeves killed him too.

The idea of Superman killing doesn't bother me when it's done well but, as I saw it, they didn't have any build up to the act and, this is my problem, it was unnecessary. Clark had Zod in a headlock, there were at least 3 ways I could think of that he could have saved the innocent bystanders without killing anyone.
Equally, the body count wouldn't bother me if they brought it up. You had a scene of Superman and Lois making out in ground zero, after the big fight it just goes to Superman and the military, my problem was that there was no sense that he'd failed.

For the record, sorry about the long post, I just never get to have this conversation with anyone haha.

@Eddie Brock
Do you listen to Fatman on Batman by any chance? :P

@Eddie Brock
Do you listen to Fatman on Batman by any chance? :P

Not regularly, but I'll tune in whenever the topic catches my eye. Like I mentioned, I listened to his TDKR review back when that came out, and I was glad that he echoed my sentiments about the DC cinematic slate.

All this talk about Batman...

@Hillan, I'm feeling very attacked!

@Lord Wraith

It's ok, here's a freebie...

@Lord Wraith You know it's all love, homie.

<Snipped quote by Vandy>

The idea of Superman killing doesn't bother me when it's done well but, as I saw it, they didn't have any build up to the act and, this is my problem, it was unnecessary. Clark had Zod in a headlock, there were at least 3 ways I could think of that he could have saved the innocent bystanders without killing anyone.
Equally, the body count wouldn't bother me if they brought it up. You had a scene of Superman and Lois making out in ground zero, after the big fight it just goes to Superman and the military, my problem was that there was no sense that he'd failed.

For the record, sorry about the long post, I just never get to have this conversation with anyone haha.

@Eddie Brock
Do you listen to Fatman on Batman by any chance? :P

Like I said Superman has been on the job for literally one day when all of this goes down. He has Zod in a headlock, yes he could have done something differently. Think about it though, in that moment when everything around him is going to shit he didn't have time to think of another option. The problem with everyone's view of Superman is that he is infallible. When he is written that way is when he is written badly. I LOVE THIS CHARACTER but at the end of the day he is just a kid from Kansas who happens to have incredible powers. That is how he sees himself. This shows that even Superman is prone to mistakes and human nature. Take him out of the equation, what would you have done in that situation? It isn't like he chose to kill Zod on a whim, it shows that it hurt him. He screams because he killed what could be the only other Kryptonian in the universe. It shows that it hurt him.

No sense that he failed? The entire plot of BvS is dealing with the fact that he failed. They were setting this up. Lex casting and Doomsday appearance aside I think they had a good plan of what they are doing. Did you want another thirty minutes of the movie showing him mope around?

BTW this is all said with love. I like having this discussion as well.

Think about it though, in that moment when everything around him is going to shit he didn't have time to think of another option.

That's exactly my problem. Superman's gut reaction, first instinct -- regardless of how inexperienced and out-of-his-depth he is -- should never be to kill.

<Snipped quote by Vandy>

That's exactly my problem. Superman's gut reaction, first instinct -- regardless of how inexperienced and out-of-his-depth he is -- should never be to kill.

I didn't say it was his first option nor his gut reaction. It was what he felt he had to do. And think about it, what else was he going to do? The phantom zone projectors were all destroyed. You can't hold Zod in a prison. You can't let him go after a stern talking to and expect him not to return. Christopher Reeves killed Zod depowered in the fortress of solitude with a smile. In that he had plenty of other options yet everyone seems to ignore that.

<Snipped quote by Eddie Brock>

I didn't say it was his first option nor his gut reaction. It was what he felt he had to do. And think about it, what else was he going to do? The phantom zone projectors were all destroyed. You can't hold Zod in a prison. You can't let him go after a stern talking to and expect him not to return. Christopher Reeves killed Zod depowered in the fortress of solitude with a smile. In that he had plenty of other options yet everyone seems to ignore that.

Do I blame Superman for ultimately taking the only choice he had left? Not really. Do I blame the writers for making it his only option? Hell yes. I can write a Spider-Man story where his only logical option is to shoot Norman Osborn in the head. Doesn't mean I should.

All I know is this conversation is making me seriously consider applying for Zod.

The problem with everyone's view of Superman is that he is infallible. When he is written that way is when he is written badly. I LOVE THIS CHARACTER but at the end of the day he is just a kid from Kansas who happens to have incredible powers. That is how he sees himself. This shows that even Superman is prone to mistakes and human nature. Take him out of the equation, what would you have done in that situation?

That would be fine if he was written as the Kansas kid with abilities. He isn't, he's written as Space Jesus. They spend the whole film saying: 'you're gonna do great things, you're the chosen one, you can SAVE THEM ALL'...and he doesn't. Not even remotely. It's a good job Metropolis is a big city, if it was the size of Smallville...oh wait, that got destroyed anyway...

No sense that he failed? The entire plot of BvS is dealing with the fact that he failed. They were setting this up. Lex casting and Doomsday appearance aside I think they had a good plan of what they are doing. Did you want another thirty minutes of the movie showing him mope around?

I can't watch BvS while I'm watching MoS. The way that Man of Steel ended, Superman trading quips with the military and turning up as Clark Kent in the Daily Planet (which is a career path we never saw him even consider in the movie btw), gives us the impression that the events that have occurred have all ended well enough for everyone who matters. Say it was a standalone movie, they'd have just sidestepped an utter calamity the likes of which we've never seen because they want a cutesy finish. I honestly think that if there hadn't been fuss kicked up about it, we wouldn't have a BvS focusing on the events of MoS the way it is.
I don't need to see him mope, I just need to see Clark acknowledge that this wasn't ok and he will do better next time.

Also, just read this next bit :P

And think about it, what else was he going to do? The phantom zone projectors were all destroyed. You can't hold Zod in a prison.

Except they totally could, put Zod in one of his space suits that block out the Earth's atmosphere (because that's what gives Kryptonians powers now...nice spacewalk Clark) and put him in a straitjacket. There, problem solved!

@Lord Wraith Oh? If you're seriously serious about that, we ought to talk.

@TimeMasterX The Kryptonian suits were all destroyed though.

@Lord Wraith Oh? If you're seriously serious about that, we ought to talk.

If I was able to write more I would definitely be more serious. At this moment it's an idea on the back burner.

<Snipped quote by Vandy>

That would be fine if he was written as the Kansas kid with abilities. He isn't, he's written as Space Jesus. They spend the whole film saying: 'you're gonna do great things, you're the chosen one, you can SAVE THEM ALL'...and he doesn't. Not even remotely. It's a good job Metropolis is a big city, if it was the size of Smallville...oh wait, that got destroyed anyway...

Superman never destroys a building. Every building that is destroyed is because Zod or one of his lackeys threw him through it. Superman saved THE ENTIRE WORLD btw. People get killed in the comics all the time, read Justice League Origin in the new 52 and tell me there weren't casualties. That had the entire league. You mean to tell me nobody died in the Avengers movies? yeah right.

<Snipped quote by vandy>

I can't watch BvS while I'm watching MoS. The way that Man of Steel ended, Superman trading quips with the military and turning up as Clark Kent in the Daily Planet (which is a career path we never saw him even consider in the movie btw), gives us the impression that the events that have occurred have all ended well enough for everyone who matters. Say it was a standalone movie, they'd have just sidestepped an utter calamity the likes of which we've never seen because they want a cutesy finish. I honestly think that if there hadn't been fuss kicked up about it, we wouldn't have a BvS focusing on the events of MoS the way it is.
I don't need to see him mope, I just need to see Clark acknowledge that this wasn't ok and he will do better next time.

This was never a standalone movie. Hell there might have been a time skip after all that. The last thing we see before he breaks that drone is him crying over the dead body of Zod.

Also, just read this next bit :P

<Snipped quote by Vandy>

Except they totally could, put Zod in one of his space suits that block out the Earth's atmosphere (because that's what gives Kryptonians powers now...nice spacewalk Clark) and put him in a straitjacket. There, problem solved!

Except those spacesuits sure didn't block their powers when they were blowing up Smallville did they? Nope, they were fully powered in those suits. Unless that straitjacket is made of Kryptonite (which isn't discovered until BvS) you're going to have a hard time holding him.

@Lord Wraith That's what I like about you, Wraith. You're very responsible. I mean, that and you write a mean Batman and make all kinds of cool lists without me asking.

@Lord Wraith That's what I like about you, Wraith. You're very responsible. I mean, that and you write a mean Batman and make all kinds of cool lists without me asking.

Life kind of forces it on you when you're working and going to school full time while marries in your twenties. I am so glad my only dependents have four legs haha.