@Tulpa Well it could've been directed at anyone. I don't know how things are in the world you described so I just wanted to make sure everything was cool.

I'm not the one calling you a crazy feminazi, I just don't like hyperbole. I'm a feminist myself. I do, however, live in a world where rape and sexual harassment isn't socially acceptable and is, in fact, frowned upon. But I also live in a world where people with the loudest voices aren't interested in talking to people and instead insist on proving their side by sheer volume. I live in a world where I've been considered a traitor to my race and my gender because I have differing opinions on the matter, such as not taking things like accusations at face value - because I've seen first hand how false charges fucks up people; and not thinking white people are evil. I've never seen anyone go around saying "Rape is fine" or anything outside of thinly veiled internet 'threats' that are about as serious as any given post on /b/.

I'm certainly not saying that sexual harassment and rape doesn't happen and I'm certainly not about to make light or fun of women and men who have gone through that; my post had everything to do with hyperbolic wording than it did anything else. Of course rape and harassment are issues, but they're not socially acceptable in any sense of the word and as a woman I haven't ever felt like I was being silenced or threatened for speaking out on things.

I'm not saying I'm for human rights but then focusing on women specifically, which with the wording would make one assume one feels only women are human, which is not a rhetoric anyone should be preaching. GamerGate is done, it accomplished nothing except for creating giving bigots yet another platform and people to blame them like a boogeyman and in the process made both sides look like giant tools: the trolls and bigots for obvious reasons and the people blaming GG for everything because they kept doubling down on the victim card over nothing and profiting off of it.

The whole GamerGoobie thing was never supposed to be about "fuck women" but the people with the loudest voices on both sides changed it, and that applies elsewhere.

People are unwilling to have conversations on issues now, which is a tragedy. Instead of both sides of the issue meeting on neutral ground and having, you know, a conversation, one side is coming in guns loaded with anecdotes and bubbled anger while the other side just rolls their eyes, calls them an essjay, and thinks they are superior intellectually and morally because they have no actual argument or point of view other than what other people tell them; they 'showed the feminazis' by being just as bad, if not worse, in their crusade. Neither side really wants to listen to the other and it creates this whole vacuum of shit.

But even dismissing that whole thing from it, sexual harassment and rape is a much larger issue and it existed long before burgers 'n fries happened. No person is an object nor should they be looked down upon for their views, their gender, their sexuality, anything. And yet...both sides of this eternal debate are guilty of doing just that.

Even so, I'd still much rather live in this world than in one where rape and harassment are accepted socially. Because really, it only ever came down to me shitposting about hyperbole! I don't think you're a crazy feminazi, that's a stupid term and you shouldn't use it other than to mock it. This stuff matters to you, and it should, but you're going about it in the same way as the people you condemn constantly mock others for. I've no concern with your message, just in its presentation. I get it. Sometimes you just gotta rant, just gotta say it so badly, and yeah, it might feel good and it might get heads turned but the intended target(s) will only see it as a victory because it got you heated.

The thing to do is to open conversation, open a discussion, get people to see your side with reason and fact and dialog. Which is difficult because in most cases these people are so set in their ways that there's no reasoning with them and every instance of 'talking it out' ends up with 'see? women are overly emotional cunts' and 'see? men are sexist shits' and it's back to square one.

But then, what the fuck do I know I'm just an idealistic bitch who doesn't get involved.

First of all, my post wasn't even about you. I already told you that. Secondly, it could not have been directly towards anyone. You have to be a very specific type of person in order for my post to apply to you. The fact that you feel to personally about it speaks volumes to me about your personality, and I'm honestly not surprised.

It doesn't apply to me. Not in the manner you think it does, anyway. I feel about it the same way I feel about anything else. Ambivalent.

You care enough to write out this essay to me, so I feel obligated to form some sort of response to you. The thing is, my emotions from my past posts have already passed and now I'm in the burn-out phase of it all. I'm burned out of this world, of everything. I'm young, but I'm already tired of fighting this fight. Because when you do, it often feels like it's you against the world. That everything is established against you. People may not speak their hatred for you in public, but the thing is - is that they will go out of their way to make sure that you never succeed at life. It worked.

What fight are you fighting here? I'm genuinely curious. Because it's coming off as a tad bit overdramatic.

So rape and death threats are "nothing" to you?

Yes, when they are not actual threats at all and just posturing. I'm not going to take a death threat on Twitter of all places as a legitimate threat.

~~~

*Phew!* Did I get them all? Probably not.

So you're just not interested in having any sort of discussion. That's really all you had to do instead of being all dismissive of everything. Way to prove the point.

You somehow wrote nine paragraphs without saying anything, really.

I said that both sides of this current culture war, and I use that term with a lot of finger quotes, are in the wrong and complete each other.

I'm not even sure what your point is supposed to be, other than validating and propagating GamerGate as something other than what it is.

GamerGate is a boogeyman now. It wasn't. But it is now. It was never supposed to be this anti-women thing. The trolls on both sides turned it into that and now it's a boogeyman. GamerGate before it became twisted was stupid to begin with and only became more and more idiotic as it became a catch-all for 'people that hurt my feefees'.

Do you not like my mouth words? You can try and be the Switzerland if you want, but it doesn't really work like that. Especially with something as notorious and well-known as this, and already impossible coming from a biased source.

I'm pretty Switzerland in the sense that I think both sides, let's say pro and anti GG since we're on the topic, are wrong. Initially I sided with GG because yeah, sure, journalistic integrity is something you want if you want to be taken seriously as a journalist and also because games 'journalists' acted like babies towards their target audience. But when I saw it start to be full of people using it to sling shit at people - and not just angry gamers towards women, but the supposed professionals towards their readers - I stepped away because no good would come of it.

Once the culture war of 'sjw' and...fuckin I dunno what the other side calls themselves so let's just say 'mras' started I didn't pick a side because one side was full of whiny self-entitled cunts and the others were going about the social justice thing completely the wrong way. As a queer woman of color I hated that people felt like they needed to speak for me and stick up for me, but I also couldn't stand the other side just using this whole thing to stroke their beards and flex their 'moral superiority' while making fun of certain people. One side isn't inherently better than the other and both sides are just constantly fueling the other's fire.

So yeah, I stayed out of it because I'm god damn near thirty and I don't have the patience for a bunch of young adults shouting at each other. This isn't the way to get people talking.

I actually think this is a personal issue to you. You already told me that you were a member of GamerGate. So you must feel targeted, and want to make something look less shitty than it is.

I only ever feel targeted when I'm actually targeted. Which doesn't really happen like...ever. I supported the idea of GamerGate at first, yes. I'll admit to that. But I stopped when it became obvious that 'ethics in video game journalism' was no longer the point. Video game journalism is a stupid hill to plant a flag on when most video game writers are just bloggers and video games are a hobby, not a fucking moral crusade.

I sense guilt in your post.

Guilt over getting involved in this perhaps, but in for a penny in for a pound. That's on me and my nature.

I sense some semblance of empathy, also. I can feel the connections being made, but not quite. I think a large part of it is wanting to point the fingers outward, rather than inwards and blaming others for the problems.

Well I'm certainly not gonna blame me for the 'culture war'. It doesn't and hasn't affected me. I'm not in a position where it WOULD affect me in any way. I'm not on Twitter or social media. I don't work in a field that uses either of those things and I have a rather private home life. I support the rights of my fellow humans, I support equality, I think a lot of people get hung up on inconsequential things which winds up hurting their cause in the long run. But when I discuss these things with people, I do it without getting emotionally involved because I'm NOT emotionally invested. Because it hasn't affected me and there are more important issues in my life.

You try to be the Switzerland in the situation, but in reality it's victim blaming. That may sound like harsh wording, but that's essentially what it is. Despite trying to place the blame on both parties (which is already in presumptious position to take,) special emphasis is placed on others. Us vs. them, and the special emphasis you place on the other side of the fence shows which side you are on.

Victim blaming? I'm not blaming anyone, other than the people that make their entire identity and personality about being oppressed or in shouting down the 'feminazis'. The blame IS on both parties. No one on either side is blameless. Which side do you think I'm on? Because I don't stand with the side that gets off on laughing at people with identity issues and I sure don't stand with the side that thinks the best way to bring women up is by bringing others down.

I can understand that position. I think know where you are coming from, and why you felt the need to write that out. I gained some understanding of you as a person. I don't look down on you as much as you think I do.

I don't think you look down on me? But you honestly should, I'm a terrible person.

Regardless, your post had a whole lot of words yet very little to say. You obviously know the shitty things that GamerGate has done, and want to distance yourself from that movement. I think there is little I need to repeat to expose the already exposed when it comes to the harassment and the breach of people's human rights. I think you know.

I know shitty things the other side has done as well. Hence my point about both sides being made for each other.

I know you are female. You can be a woman and also a misogynist. You must realize what you defending. There is no need for me to say it.

I'm not a misogynist. I'm not defending GamerGate as it existed or currently exists. I'm not defending the SJWs or the anti-SJWs. I hate the acronym 'SJW' even and only use it here for lack of a better way to describe them. I believe in equality. I don't believe that policing language is the right way to go about it. I don't believe mocking people and being self important fucks is helping anybody other than the individual. One side is a bunch of sharks just waiting for the fish to fuck up so they can pounce and make response videos pointing out how stupid the sjws are. The other side likes to play the victim card first and double down on it even when called out on things. This is a generalization, yes. At some point all screaming and yelling does is make people invest in earplugs.

I say 'Black Lives Matter.' You are the type of person who says 'ALL lives matter!'

I am fucking not. I don't support BLM. All Lives Matter is for assholes that miss the point.

That person is still a racist, no matter how many "black friends/cousins" they have. That in itself shows that you are an illogical person that would be nigh impossible to get through - let alone through the internet.

I actually don't have many black friends. My best friend growing up was white. I had black friends, though, but half of them are dead now and the other half wouldn't recognize me anymore anyway. They'd probably hate me because I sold out. Got out. Cousins, yes. But I don't see them often. I'm not a racist, either. I'm actually quite easy to get through to. All it takes is actual discussion or some quality shitposting. Coming at me with accusations and shit isn't the way to do it.

I pretty much have to explain the entirety of feminist theory to you, history of women, etc, etc. I can't do that - not here. What I suggest is go to your bookstore and go to the women's section. Just pick up a book about feminist theory and women's issues. Read, read, read. Besides, aren't bookstores nice places to visit? They are always comfy and they feel nice.

Or I could just go down to a community college and enroll in a female studies course and get the same experience only with more eye rolling.

If you expect me to meet you in the middle, it's not going to happen. I cannot agree with the concept that women's issues don't even exist, especially faced with such weak and emotionally manipulated non-arguments presented to me here.

Women's issues do exist. As do men's issues. As do trans issues. Human issues exist. I never said that they didn't exist. Just that women don't have it as bad as some people let on.

But thanks for you honesty. I can appreciate that, how you opened up a bit here. I'm not totally unreasonable, but there's needs to be some semblance of reason in the first place.

I think I'm being more than reasonable when I say that 'equality is important' and 'this current cultural war is fucking bonkers' and 'women aren't in a terrible position in the modern first world' and 'GamerGate is and was dumb' and I thought I was being more than reasonable when I said "It's good that you care about these issues."

I find it annoying when people do this without even attempting to discuss reasonably.

tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.

Shit... after reading that entire debate I realize coming here to talk about door to door salesman being annoying pales in comparison now.

This is amusing from the outside.But try and limit it to healthy venting and debate guys.

I love when a debate happens on this thread. It's always fun to read them.

I love when a debate happens on this thread. It's always fun to read them.

Right?? For me its like I want to join in because Im into heavy debates but at the same time I know im an professional instigator at the same time and its just like "Yeah I will let this just play out".

@Fabricant451

<Snipped quote>

That was a metaphorical comparison, you dunce. A very accurate one at that. (On second thought, you're either dumb or you are purposely needling and misquoting an argument. I fully suspect that it's the latter. Weak and manipulative choice either way.) Also shows your ignorance that you agree on that, but completely miss the point when it comes to women's issues. Not only miss the point, but the point flies to straight to Saudi Arabia wearing a hijab 1,000 miles into the air and then blows up at impact.

<Snipped quote>

Got it. So you don't believe that systemic harassment and sexism is harassment and sexism.

<Snipped quote>

You do not understand the concept of invalid arguments. It is within my right to dismiss invalid arguments. Invalid arguments are not real arguments and are not worth any form of discussion other than to point out their fallacy. You are not arguing. You're just spouting hyperbole.

@tsukune

<Snipped quote>

Oh, yes. You are free to offer your authoritative input on gay issues being a straight person, but when an actual gay person steps in to offer their input - it's drama and trolling that only exists for your own amusement.

Your fingers cramped up rather quickly, but you feel free to sit on that high horse in this situation. If you wanted to butt out, then why not just butt out? Instead here you are, fanning the flames. You realize that's the literal definition of a troll, right? Did I give you the attention that you wanted? Satisfied? By the way, you're a fucking weeaboo, mate. Sad but true.

Here, have a pillow.

Maybe before you attack other people's rhetoric, you take a long look at yours. And maybe stop personally attacking people when you don't actually know them. That'd be nice.

Lighten up on the ad hominem and pathos, thanks.

@Fabricant451

<Snipped quote>

That was a metaphorical comparison, you dunce. A very accurate one at that. (On second thought, you're either dumb or you purposely needling and misquoting an argument. I fully suspect that it's the latter. Weak and manipulative choice either way.) Also shows your ignorance that you agree on that, but completely miss the point when it comes to women's issues. Not only miss the point, but the point flies to straight to Saudi Arabia wearing a hijab 1,000 miles into the air and then blows up at impact.

Well, I certainly don't think name calling is called for. That's a bit rude, isn't it? It also wasn't an accurate comparison considering all you're doing is deciding my views and stances for me. I don't support your side of things, therefore I must be the person that goes 'All Lives Matter'. I don't think the things people protest and shout about are as important as they claim they are, so clearly I must miss the point of women's issues. Women are not always victims. Women's issues are not somehow more important and aren't always exclusively about women.

Excuse me for not thinking that women aren't equal in the society I'm part of. That must make me ignorant. Or privileged. Or some buzzword. You're not even attempting to educate or talk with me; you'd much rather talk down to me and exclaim how I don't get it because I have different views on the situation. Because you 'don't have time'.

This is exactly why people say there's no point in arguing with people like you. Not you specifically. People like you. It's a metaphorical comparison.

Got it. So you don't believe that systemic harassment and sexism is harassment and sexism.

I don't believe that anonymous sock accounts on Twitter or social media going "i'm gona rape u" or "i'm gonna kill u if u censor my thing bitch" is a credible threat or real harassment. It's trolling. It's base level trolling. It's the shit that the 6 o'clock news 'reports' on in order to scare parents. You probably wouldn't think it was anything either if, say, a male was given the same threat. If a threat is credible, it wouldn't be broadcast for everyone to see and if people felt truly threatened by it, they wouldn't broadcast it to their support chamber with big letters saying "SEE? THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING TO EVERYONE IT NEEDS TO END".

That's called feeding the trolls.

I believe that sexism and harassment are sexism and harassment. But the kind of threats that happened during the whole GG shit were empty and more indicative of general level of online maturity rather than some kind of sexist agenda. Doxxing is a really bad thing, but both sides took a glee in doxxing the other - and that's harassment. And that I did and do take issue with. And only serves to show why I ride the fucking fence.

You do not understand the concept of invalid arguments. It is within my right to dismiss invalid arguments. Invalid arguments are not real arguments and are not worth any form of discussion other than to point out their fallacy. You are not arguing. You're just spouting hyperbole.

I've said my position like three times now, but it doesn't count because it's invalid. My arguments, such as they are, are invalid because I 'don't get it'. Maybe I don't. But you're clearly not interested in changing that. I truly regret being sarcastic to you, because turns out you can't take a joke. Not my best, but can't all be winners.

Funny you bring up hyperbole, though, since that's what got us here. You're not willing to see my side as having any merit. Because I'm wrong, my views are wrong, and I'm racist and sexist and misogynistic and all the -ists. 'If the shoe fits' or something, right? But please tell me I'm wrong for not wanting to be part of a community that will stand up for someone just because they're a woman no questions asked, and sweep their shady and morally wrong past under the rug because they're a 'victim'. Tell me I'm wrong for condemning people that mock and genuinely despise people that have identity issues or have strong beliefs. Tell me I don't understand because I'm stupid enough to realize that both sides are hurting their own cause more than they realize.

Tell me how I should feel.

I don't side with 'the enemy' simply because I don't stand with you. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I thought we were making progress. Reaching an understanding. But I guess not. You can still come to my birthday party though.

By the way, you're a fucking weeaboo, mate. Sad but true.

Hey, leave Tsukune alone. Weeb Lives Matter.

@Fabricant451

Couldn't have put it better myself - literally. I enjoy partaking in sarcasm far too much myself to shut down a troll like this one properly. Anyway, nicely done; let's hope your logic actually sinks in this time.

At this point I'm fairly certain you're just trolling. Like I'm about...70 percent sure. Maybe not initially, but presently.

Triggered much? It's amazing how much you people complain about the terrible captial S.J.W.'s, but as soon as your safe little bubble is popped; you'll act just as triggered by your idiocy being called out for exactly what it is. You complain about the captial S.J.W.'s pulling the victim card, and look at what we have here. Do you need a safe space to hide away from the nasty woman who spouts meanie mouth words?



In the end, you'll pull the exact same tactics when it serves your own purpose.

No, see, because I wasn't being serious. See that was the joke. Jokes are things that are humorous and make people laugh and are ways to show that you're a fun person that gets invited to all the clubs and parties with the cool kids. I'm usually wittier, though, I'm slipping.

Reductio Ad Absurdum

Oh shit, I love Harry Potter too. Lumos Maxima! Petrificus Totalus!

You are literally saying that women's issues don't exist.

No I'm literally not.

Women's issues do exist.

See? I'm literally not saying that at all. Saying that 'women's issues aren't always the most serious thing' isn't the same as saying 'WOMEN'S ISSUES DON'T EXIST'. I'm sure there's a catchy latin phrase you can use here. You seem to be good at that.

Sexism doesn't exist.

Sure it does. It works both ways.

You are supportive of online harassment.

No I'm not. I dunno how I can make it more clear. I thought the whole 'I don't approve of doxxing' thing was evident. I also don't approve of SWATting. Or DDOSing. Or of posting comments on Youtube videos saying how much better music was twenty years ago.

That is the position that you are taking. Anyone with common sense would see how banal and idiotic of a position this is.

I need the clap emoji. Hold on a minute.

SAYING 👏 I 👏 DON'T 👏 THINK 👏 TWITTER 👏 TROLL 👏 COMMENTS 👏 SHOULD 👏 BE 👏 TAKEN 👏 SERIOUSLY👏 DOESN'T 👏 MEAN 👏 I 👏 SUPPORT 👏 ONLINE 👏 HARASSMENT 👏 I 👏 DON'T 👏 CONSIDER 👏 SHITTY 👏 TROLLING 👏 AND 👏 FEEDING 👏 TROLLS 👏 TO 👏 BE 👏 ONLINE 👏 HARASSMENT 👏 UNLIKE 👏 DOXXING 👏 WHICH 👏 IS 👏 HARASSMENT 👏 AND 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 SHITTY 👏 THING 👏 TO 👏 DO 👏

That is not even a position worth considering, let alone arguing. If such a person could even be argued with.

I can be argued with. Me and my buddy Dynamo do it all the time. We're BFFs. Love that guy.

You need a valid opinion to argue before you argue. You weren't even obligated to write any of this to me. I already told you several times that my original post was not about you, and was directed at someone else. I don't know why you feel as if it is my obligation to take you and your views seriously, especially within this and the before-mentioned context.

Ohhhhh so this whole thing is just a roundabout way of trying to drop the issue because it's not meant for me? The decent thing to do, you know...would be to see my views as serious or valid and try to...I dunno...engage with them. You don't have any obligation, no, but it would at least have made you come off more rose scented.

Unlike me, who doesn't care how much my reputation tanks further.

Seems like you are the one who feels like the world owes you something, rather than the terrible capital S.J.W.s. I don't owe you anything. I hope that much is clear.

Where are you getting these incorrect assumptions, friendo? The world doesn't owe me anything and I've earned everything I've owned. You really haven't taken in anything posted if you think invoking the SJW acronym is going to do anything to me other than making me shrug.

Why do I have to be the one to educate you? If you could step in my shoes, you would understand the exasperation of doing this over and over and over again.

I don't know if you and I have the same taste in shoes so I dunno if I wanna step in yours. I'm sure they're lovely, though.

Maybe not educate, but at least attempt to discuss or 'debate' instead of...not doing that and making leaps in logic and assumption and misinterpreting things and what kind of shoes.

It's tedious and pointless. Statistically, no matter how sound an argument is - there is a very tiny, minuscule chance that you'll ever change anyone's mind through an internet conversation.

Maybe not their mind but if you walk away giving them a new perspective or way of looking at things it's certainly a start.

If I did that with every dumbass on the internet, I would literally be going in circles for infinity - because the internet will never run out of stupid people who spout wrong or plain out gross opinions and probably should not be trusted with the future of their country.

The beautiful thing about the internet and, like, language is that people are entitled to their opinions even if people do not agree with them. That doesn't mean people who say some truly heinous stuff shouldn't expect backlash and response. The right to speech doesn't give you the right to be an asshole with no repercussion. I may not agree with things people say - and they may not agree with things I say - but I'm not going to tell them they can't say that. Or that they shouldn't say that.

(Not applying this specifically to you. I see a glimmer of hope in you, if that's any consolation.)

Thanks, boo. Love you too.

It's like teaching the alphabet and the numbers 1-10 to a an infinite number of toddlers, most of whom will never get it. That is the level of awareness you are at when it comes to social issues.

Oh come on, I'm being aware at at least a fourth grade level.

I would have to start from square one. (Sally is running with Spot. See Spot run?)

I'm pretty sure that's ableist language. Not everyone can run.

Instead of sitting there and listening to me bitch, why don't you do what I suggested earlier? Open your mind a bit, and take a trip to your local bookstore.

I have been meaning to pick up some more Honorverse books. And tomorrow IS Saturday...

or famous women.

What like Ilse Koch?

(thass another joke)

Or maybe just a book about social issues concerning women. Reading about real women who have experienced all of this really puts things into perspective. Visit the women's fiction and nonfiction section. Immerse yourself. Know thy enemy, right? I recommend I Am Malala. You might learn something, even if you don't agree with the politics.

I mean I guess I could get another copy of Ain't I A Woman. I'll probably avoid the women's fiction section, though, the last time I wound up there I almost walked out with Eat, Pray, Love and 50 Shades of Gray because I guess those are what we're supposed to read.

Maybe I'll see if they have Sister Outsider, been a while since I picked that up.

You are taking this way more personally than you should, too.

At this point I'm too invested to stop now. It's like when you order a third drink because it's ladies night and the drinks cost pennies. You're already feeling kind of gone after the second Thug Passion but you're wanting to know if Tupac was right about it so you go through with it and the next thing you know it's two days later and you have to get new carpet.

Despite our viewpoints being radically different, I actually would come to your birthday party. As crazy as this sounds, if you knew me in real life you would probably like me.

Well yeah I try to like everybody even if our views don't align because my best friend growing up was a Cubs fan and I was a Sox fan so I know what it's like to hate your friends and love them too.

And I think I would probably like you too. In fact, we'd probably be two peas in a pod as our bitch levels rise above 9000 as we fight and bicker over literally nothing - knowing full well that we both secretly enjoy it. I'll warn you though - I am a 100% certified bitch. I can deliver any line with an adequate level of bitch. I'm not doing my job right if I don't. I can do this all day long.

I mean...I'm literally the person people make fun of when they picture the 'sassy black woman' thing. Except I don't bob my head like that unless I'm in the groove. It's a wonder I got married. I dunno how she puts up with me and my sass.

Minus the s.

Ayyy.

As much as y'all pretend you dislike me, you know love me. I'm going to pull a Nicki Minaj Wink here and say certain people out there copy my posting style - probably because they realize that everything is amusing when you deliver it with an adequate level of bitch.

Wait am I copying you or am I just doing the thing where I assume someone means me because I swear it's coincidental I'm just a shitposter with self deprecation on lock.

I feel like you're a funny person, Fabricant. We would so get along. We may be on opposite sides of the bitch spectrum, but we would be best frenemies. Yes, we would fight. Bicker. Then think of what we should have said after the fact. But we'd love it, and go right back into talking about boys or some other menial bullshit. I like you.

The last time I talked about boys was when I thought it would be a good idea to argue which member of Wu Tang is the best and why it was GZA and everyone else was wrong.

There were no survivors.