Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Woundwort
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Well...to answer the OP's question.

Honestly, as a player, what would keep my interest in a sci fi-RP would be a major crackdown on powergamers. It's pretty evident, at least to me, that we have a pretty bad infestation here. And people tend to be a little too polite to call them out when they're doing it. I've had bad enough experiences that I've more or less stopped checking threads here-and I've always been a major NRPer throughout my time online.

It all comes down to powergamers for me. They're a problem. And I'd like to see them dealt with.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by MissingAxis
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I think it would be beneficial to the whole NRP sub-forum community to develop some sort of 'universal' nation stat system that could be easily adapted to different genres/eras etc. Would any of you guys be up for working on something like that? (OP: sorry about derailing your thread further my friend!)


Go right ahead. I think developing a stat system of some kind could be beneficial.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Same as with a lot of other people in this thread, I’m not convinced just yet that I’ll actually join, but I do feel interested enough to chime in on the discussion.
I just finished reading every post, so to begin I’ll just pick various quotes on which I had something to comment on.

One of the biggest issues I see in these sorts of roleplays is that a large number of players put in their character sheets or enter into discussion, but ultimately end up leaving because the other players aren't producing the kind of nations they were expecting, or the game environment as a whole changes.
MissingAxis

Hey that’s pretty much exactly how it goes for me usually. I lurk a lot of NRP threads but almost never join them, for a variety of reasons but my usual concern is that I may end up disliking this or that nation for entirely subjective reasons. I think I have an idea for one factor that can lead to this phenomenon (more frequently than in normal RPs) and I feel like bringing it up briefly.

One of the bigger differences between NRPs and regular ones is that every player does a significant amount of world building. This is relevant if we’re looking at the general tone an RP is trying to go for. In a traditional RP, the gm predetermines the tone of his setting right off the bat. Maybe he’s going for heroic, light hearted fantasy. Maybe it’s a realistic, grimdark setting. Maybe it’s a pessimistic cyberpunk vision, or an optimistic “where no man has gone before” space opera. Point being, the GM picks whichever sort of vibe his story wants to transmit in general (I acknowledge that light hearted stories can have dark moments and vice versa) and sticks to that when designing the various components of his world. Or a good writer does anyway.

But when you establish little or no prevailing tone in advance other than “it’s space, yo”, then every player will do whatever they like the most, which means that you will almost certainly end up with nation concepts that hit completely different tones and feel like they don’t belong in the same universe. This is, of course, a high degree of personal freedom given to players but it is likely to lead to a game universe that will not feel internally consistent, which in turn can have an unsatisfying effect on players. If we look at warhammer 40k, for instance, we can clearly see that, even though every race is pretty diverse from one another, they all suit the general tone of doom and gloom 40k is going for, of a universe on the brink of catastrophe. It's this internal consistency that's difficult to accomplish with a multitude of writers.

That’s my interpretation anyway, take it for what it’s worth from a guy who has actively participated in like one and a half NRP. Medieval ones at that.

I think its pretty well known that excessive nation-sheet building before the RP begins is a bad way to start. […]
Polybius

I’m personally mildly indifferent towards this, I think there’s merit to brief and explicit sheets respectively. As MissingAxis pointed out, revealing information piecemeal during the story is a fun and engaging way of doing things, not only for NRPs. Also, a shorter sheet means quicker boot-up times and a faster launch of the RP overall, which is great for motivation.

On the other hand, it can be plain fun to go into all sorts of details, and the more aspects of a nation (which, let’s not forget, is a very complex, very internally varied thing) the player considers and makes up in advance, the more internally consistent and believable his nation will be. I think the more towards the “hard” end of sci-fi the story verges, the more need there is to explain details, the classic example being “But what do they eat and where does it come from?”. Ultimately, the amount of detail needed is dictated by the story (and its players).

Either way, I’ll be fine no matter which format you end up choosing.

Basically prevent players from making "Mary Sue"/OP/broken factions or species with absolutely no sense of realism.
ClocktowerEchos

A lot of people bring up powergaming so I guess the issue must be quite rampant. Maybe the few NRPs I’ve been in were very lucky, or didn’t run long enough, or I was too oblivious, but I have to admit I don’t have particularly nasty experiences in this regard. The same rules go for standard RPs, where mary sues and broken characters aren’t welcome either. As such I don’t really have much to add on the subject, sadly, other than that it obviously needs to be kept in check. Point-buy systems or the like are okay by me if deemed necessary. This actually segues into something from the end of the thread.

I think it would be beneficial to the whole NRP sub-forum community to develop some sort of 'universal' nation stat system that could be easily adapted to different genres/eras etc. Would any of you guys be up for working on something like that? (OP: sorry about derailing your thread further my friend!)
Polybius

My experience with NRPs is somewhat limited but I love game design and RP in general, so if nothing else I’d love to observe that thread somewhere and, if wanted, add my two cents here and there. I entertained the idea of working on an NRP system of my own making for funsies anyway.

One NRP is completely jam-packed with giant space nations with clashing borders and millions of ships, and almost utopian/dystopian societies. What's the point if we're already there!?
Darkraven

Great point, never thought about it that way. It makes a lot of sense and I can’t add too much to it other than I agree from now on and think someone should try dialing it down in their NRP.

There was a large chunk in the middle where you folks were hashing out this or that detail about a point system focused on a small-scale NRP that takes place on a handful of planets with co-existing aliens. I got that right, yeah? Anyway I don’t really know how the game system there worked, personally I think having stuff like growth meters is too over the top, at least if the goal of your NRP is to tell a story. I’m all for games, making up systems for designing the shapes and components of individual space ships and tracking locational damage, but I acknowledge that it is a game at that point and not really a collaborative storytelling effort (of course there is some overlap). I guess, just like tone, the RP’s intended function is also something that should be clarified to begin with. Is the goal to tell a story first, and play a game second, or the other way around? Either way is valid, but they both change the way you approach the design of the rules.

If story comes first, then the rules should largely limit your starting situation (to equalize) and maybe govern military engagements (which are most prone to player disputes). Anything more than that, I think, just ends up working to the RP’s disadvantage by bogging the narration down.

If game comes first, well, go ham, make rules for everything :P

So yeah that was a bunch of babbling on my part, sorry to make you sit through it. To summarize, the point to take away from this is:
It is beneficial to determine both the intended tone (story genre, feel, emotion), as well as the intended purpose (game vs story) of the RP first, and structure the details around that afterwards.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by ScreenAcne
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@Ashgan

Nations don't exist in the same linear issues as a person, which is why typically stories that focus on nations tend to turn into never ending posting sprees. Nations tend to be a win or lose scenario or effectively, they fall into a stable state for a long period. Even if that stable state is bad, poor or even just unsung. It's stable for the greater community.

I think, though brother that you're onto a point here, man. Maybe we're looking too deep into this. Perhaps the there should just a be a simple "end date" where if you're nation isn't clearly victorious it just cements into whatever state it is in for the next couple of generations until there is a continuation of story.

AKA: if you're nation is poor and the end date comes. You're nation for the time between this RP end and the next continued RP is one of a poor nation and all of its previous struggles.

That way we got the "clear end/victory" conditions that mean people got to act in a certain time limit-lets say..for example..every X posts represents X years-

In terms of tone I notice that two things happen in sci-fi RP. Normally people tend to abuse time, mass and nano bot stuff like crazy. It sort of gets silly with what these people can do. This isn't silly if it was say..a weird alien...low tech race that had this gimmick at its central method of power-like say..an alien horde- but for guys with guns and the net, it tends to get a bit much.

Second is that, a lot of time when building cities. People tend to build a city or nation for an ideology that they have a fetish for. Which typically stops it from being properly stained by its own logical issues by OOC bias.

Solution:

Put an end date.

Put a tech cap.

Declare a clear scenario: I'd suggest that the battle take place on the native planet with maybe some space battles for some nearby asteroids/ mineral planetoid around it. It will be easier to boil down a general tone on a single planet where you're either an invade, refugee, weird abnormally or system home species in their own political vices.

Edit: Excuse the loose goose. I'm posting after just waking up from a dream weirder than a celebrities love life.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Monkeypants
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I'm sure this will counter many points but let me throw a few ideas/opinions in here too.

1; technology. The whole point of Sci fi is the rule of cool and what's more important than a giant beam saber wielding mecha with particle beam weapon turrets on its shoulders. (well not for all but you get it). The idea should be to follow cool but keep a balance. Technology should be moderately described or a rough guideline, say, "think star trek".

Find a balance of a weapon and let someones technobabble be fluff.

2; military op, Mary sue etc etc. Alright, some of my more successful nrps have occurred because one or more, (usually me, not taking credit for win but just being honest.) being a tad or overly op. It's called an antagonist. If everyone starts on equal footing, then its just another typical, plain age of empires roleplay game where we all start in the space age. Just, blah.

You need the lack of general balance to encourage struggle. People don't care for slice of life, they want fear and paranoia, that shit could go south quick. All this said, people would need to agree on some basic things. What is considered op. Star trek for example. The Borg are imho pretty damn op. (unless you have picards or janeways.) but in your RP would that race be too op? Would too op be a romulan empire on hgh? Not exceptionally more technologically advanced but far greater in number and experience?

That's where you, the GM has to decide. Just have some faith, let some people be smaller nations that are bound into a bloc like the EU and the antagonist be your Russia. I'll be more than happy to show you how it can work.

3; points system. No.

Points are the first step away from a narrative towards a stat base. I'm sorry but people like myself are in it for the story, not to use math for making my nation, regardless of how rudimentary it may be.

4; absurdly long ns's. I totally agree. People skip to military every time. They'll look at characters when relevant and history only if they are intertwined. But seriously, 3/4 skip right to the military.

5; have an overall story to give a boost. The whole everyone was once in a massive star empire thing is overplayed, ill give clocktowerechoes that, but maybe one of the bigger nations starts the RP at odds with another major nation, forcing those nearby to react. Even if they aren't directly in the warpath, what would tip the balance more than a nation near nation B, who fears nation A, announcing it is siding with nation A. Now B is in a pickle, facing a strong force from A, but now having a small nation that albeit couldn't win in a major war, still be a real concern.

Gotta make some sort of overreaching story that can affect everyone or its boring first contact stories over and over.

Feel free to agree/disagree as all prior posts points are fair and respectable, but these are the major points I can think of.

Edit,
Oh and 6; Have fun and don't be butthurt if your nation loses. It shouldn't even be a loss, it should be a new story arc about the oppression of your people, the forcing of a new government and the shit storm that follows. Look at Iraq. More drama exists today than before the second Iraq war. And drama is king.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by ClocktowerEchos
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1; technology. The whole point of Sci fi is the rule of cool and what's more important than a giant beam saber wielding mecha with particle beam weapon turrets on its shoulders. (well not for all but you get it). The idea should be to follow cool but keep a balance. Technology should be moderately described or a rough guideline, say, "think star trek".

Find a balance of a weapon and let someones technobabble be fluff.


I feel like that the idea of mob democracy would work very well here with the players as a whole judging each other for what is "properly" sic-fiy for the setting.

Something of a more random note that I might get flack for, but I feel like if we're going to be doing the bare minimum of a sci-fi NRP, we should have something like what Infinite Warfare did. There's a trend towards more sci-fi stuff in universe, but people are still fumbling on how to get their and still find refuge in less advanced things to use as a base.

Examples: The energy based weapons are usually modeled some what closely to modern weapons we have now (looking at the Volk in particular which is basically and AK) and their FTL system which is very crude by sci-fi standards (its inaccurate and it jolts the ship around a hell of a lot and can cause fires and power outages, something you'd never see in a normal warp jump on something like the Enterprise)

2; military op, Mary sue etc etc. Alright, some of my more successful nrps have occurred because one or more, (usually me, not taking credit for win but just being honest.) being a tad or overly op. It's called an antagonist. If everyone starts on equal footing, then its just another typical, plain age of empires roleplay game where we all start in the space age. Just, blah.

You need the lack of general balance to encourage struggle. People don't care for slice of life, they want fear and paranoia, that shit could go south quick. All this said, people would need to agree on some basic things. What is considered op. Star trek for example. The Borg are imho pretty damn op. (unless you have picards or janeways.) but in your RP would that race be too op? Would too op be a romulan empire on hgh? Not exceptionally more technologically advanced but far greater in number and experience?

That's where you, the GM has to decide. Just have some faith, let some people be smaller nations that are bound into a bloc like the EU and the antagonist be your Russia. I'll be more than happy to show you how it can work.


I'm not saying that we should all be at the exact same level and that having a super power be the main forces for good/bad shouldn't be a thing; but an issue arrises when everyone tries to be the Russia or the China or the America but also don't want to be the aggressor. And then only try and out do one another in a e-peen contest. I'll admit that not 100% of people who NRP do this, but more than a few people do it and given the overall size of the NRP community, they will end up in NRPs more often than not.

3; points system. No.

Points are the first step away from a narrative towards a stat base. I'm sorry but people like myself are in it for the story, not to use math for making my nation, regardless of how rudimentary it may be.


No one is advocating for EVE Online levels of math, it would be basic addition and subtraction at best from what it seems like now. You pick from a list of traits, good ones cost points, bad ones give you points and you just pick the ones you want so long they come out to X value or only picking so many traits or both with how Stellaris does it.

Yes this would limit player creative freedom but boohoo, its a pretty effective way of having people be specialized in something and preventing power play to a greater extent than simply not having it. In the case of special factions ie spaceRussia, there can be exceptions to that rule at the GM's discretion.

4; absurdly long ns's. I totally agree. People skip to military every time. They'll look at characters when relevant and history only if they are intertwined. But seriously, 3/4 skip right to the military.

5; have an overall story to give a boost. The whole everyone was once in a massive star empire thing is overplayed, ill give clocktowerechoes that, but maybe one of the bigger nations starts the RP at odds with another major nation, forcing those nearby to react. Even if they aren't directly in the warpath, what would tip the balance more than a nation near nation B, who fears nation A, announcing it is siding with nation A. Now B is in a pickle, facing a strong force from A, but now having a small nation that albeit couldn't win in a major war, still be a real concern.

Gotta make some sort of overreaching story that can affect everyone or its boring first contact stories over and over.

Feel free to agree/disagree as all prior posts points are fair and respectable, but these are the major points I can think of.

Edit,
Oh and 6; Have fun and don't be butthurt if your nation loses. It shouldn't even be a loss, it should be a new story arc about the oppression of your people, the forcing of a new government and the shit storm that follows. Look at Iraq. More drama exists today than before the second Iraq war. And drama is king.


I agree with this much, preach it brutha \o/
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Polybius
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One of the bigger differences between NRPs and regular ones is that every player does a significant amount of world building. This is relevant if we’re looking at the general tone an RP is trying to go for. In a traditional RP, the gm predetermines the tone of his setting right off the bat. Maybe he’s going for heroic, light hearted fantasy. Maybe it’s a realistic, grimdark setting. Maybe it’s a pessimistic cyberpunk vision, or an optimistic “where no man has gone before” space opera. Point being, the GM picks whichever sort of vibe his story wants to transmit in general (I acknowledge that light hearted stories can have dark moments and vice versa) and sticks to that when designing the various components of his world. Or a good writer does anyway.

But when you establish little or no prevailing tone in advance other than “it’s space, yo”, then every player will do whatever they like the most, which means that you will almost certainly end up with nation concepts that hit completely different tones and feel like they don’t belong in the same universe. This is, of course, a high degree of personal freedom given to players but it is likely to lead to a game universe that will not feel internally consistent, which in turn can have an unsatisfying effect on players. If we look at warhammer 40k, for instance, we can clearly see that, even though every race is pretty diverse from one another, they all suit the general tone of doom and gloom 40k is going for, of a universe on the brink of catastrophe. It's this internal consistency that's difficult to accomplish with a multitude of writers.


This is such an awesome point I thought it worth mentioning again.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by REDSHEILD
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Say that magical nanomachines are too difficult to invent, but all it takes is one rogue scientist to create and spread the knowledge to turn the galaxy into a cybernetic hell.


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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by ClocktowerEchos
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If you don't ban faster than light travel, you will get surprise attacks. If you don't ban ansibles, you will get relativistic travel induced paradoxes. If you don't ban gravity manipulation, you will get impenetrable force fields. If you don't ban magical nanomachines, you will get swarms of planet eaters.

Just try to ban FTL travel in gravity wells, but that won't stop the relativistic FTL warheads from popping into the edge of your system.

Go ahead and wave FTL inhibitors and FTL sensors, but mass production and logic will still make the can of worms explode.

Try disrupting ansibles at >1% light-speed, but prolonged time dilation is still possible on galactic scales.

Blab about how energy hungry gravity engines are, but antimatter and dyson swarms will overcome that.

Say that magical nanomachines are too difficult to invent, but all it takes is one rogue scientist to create and spread the knowledge to turn the galaxy into a cybernetic hell.


Again, just use common sense and mob democracy to sort it out. If someone decides they want to have planet killing drones, then they're going to get shit on OOC very quickly. Even as cynical as I am, I still believe if you have people bound to common sense and not going overboard (and given how there's a tech base and a tech cap or something like that I think), you shouldn't have those issues. And even if you do, if the majority of players/GM believe it to be breaking the RP then it'll be removed.

No need to get into the nitty gritty advanced theoretical physics since I'm going to be honest, that's a massive turn off to anyone looking into sci-fi. Most people don't want to think on how many ways you can fuck up Newton's laws in space with vague concepts, they just want to have fun in space. I bet you if you didn't bring it up, most if not all of the people here would have no idea wtf an ansibles or thinking of how to create time paradoxes and shit.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by REDSHEILD
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@catchamber is your name cat chamber or catch amber?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by ClocktowerEchos
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<Snipped quote by ClocktowerEchos>

And this is why many of these NRPs die. They go from "yeah, that sounds cool" to "oh hell no, that's bullshit" in 0 to 60, all because someone takes an innocuous concept and extrapolates it to its logical conclusion.


So are you suggesting we all go out and look up all of these strange and theoretical physics/astrology/space stuff and theories just for the purpose of playing a sci-fi NRP? I'm sorry but if everyone who wanted to play sci-fi had to know how FTL works, how does the fabric of space time interact with certain stuff and what tachyons are and their nitty gritties, then forget having and RP that dies, you would literally never be able to have an RP in the first place.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Polybius
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<Snipped quote by ClocktowerEchos>

And this is why many of these NRPs die. They go from "yeah, that sounds cool" to "oh hell no, that's bullshit" in 0 to 60, all because someone takes an innocuous concept and extrapolates it to its logical conclusion.


This is why GMs need to set the tone in the OP. Is it soft sci-fi with flexible universal laws or is it a bit tougher? These problems can be solved very easily in the OP if limits are set. It would seem to me, that any one of these scenarios would be a storyline or season-long plot line if the players involved agreed. (that is assuming the narrative-driven 'this is a story not a game' attitude towards the RP) "Every idea an opportunity" - someone once said that.
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@catchamber Everything besides FTL seems okay to ban (ignoring the fact I don't know what some of those things are) but you seem to be forgetting that in a good RP, people actually talk about what they're going to post. Unless someone is just a complete dick and teleports mega nukes into everyone's home system, there's no need to ban FTL out right. Which even if they do do that in an angry post, it can just be ignored and or retconned officially by the GM. You seem to forget that there are people behind the posts and computers.

Also, I'd imagine that having your ship take months if not years to get somewhere would be absolutely infuriating and boring. Plus, everyone is familiar to what an FTL drive is even if they don't know how it works, its simple in its practice and everyone knows it.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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As I see it, these bans and rules (in a story-first RP) boil down to a question of trust. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Can we trust a player we don't know with the scientific power to wipe out systems and travel between galaxies and timelines etc? In a scenario where you have a 100% trust attitude towards everyone else, you'd need no rules. You would trust that, whichever element the other person chose, will only improve the story, not detract from it. Ideally they have also made this choice to reinforce the theme and tone of the story, which was agreed upon in advance (example: all-devouring nanobots in a fatalistic and hopeless future).
Such a scenario is highly unlikely though; essentially, I just described writing without other people, doing it yourself. So if we accept that restrictions on power levels are essentially a gauge of how skeptical you are of your players' ability to write responsibly then... well, then that's what we're looking at. I swear I had a point here somewhere D: Maybe it's a neat, new perspective to view the argument from.

Edit: Also, what Polybius just said, basically. Any element can work in a story, so long as everyone involved is mature enough not to ruin it, as catchamber put it. But if you're with a lot of people you don't know and you don't want to risk it, or you're skeptical because you had one too many powergamers, then setting defined limits is probably the way to go.
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I think, brothers. Despite all the cunning commentary and, motherfucking. master mustard we got laid down on this layer of a burger. We're drifting off a little.

Here's what I would like an NRP:

Can be weird stuff racially or technologically. You know, alien swarms. Jelly geniuses in space ships. The Gelatinous Cube returns, man.

Certain physics fuckery is off limits. Especially time travel/manipulation stuff.

Have a clear end in sight of the RP. How that's done is up to the GM.

Some point system so some vague sense of balance between nations exist.

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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Polybius
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What else would you like me to explain?

Do you hail from the planet they call Reddit?

EDIT: nevermind.
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