Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Little Bird
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<Snipped quote by Devil>

To be fair, the point of 'Ether', as our particular crew uses the term, is actually to allow for greater interplayability between characters. If Player A, for example, uses a system of 'Ki' as his personal energy, with a bunch of ways to manipulate, attack with, and defend against Ki, then that's cool. Say he goes up against Player B, who uses a system of 'Prana' as his personal energy, with manipulations, attacks, and defenses for Prana.

The way you seem to be arguing it, these two would be completely unable to defend against each other's abilities and whoever shoots first wins, because 'Ki' doesn't interact with 'Prana'. Luchalliance players, however, have adopted a system whereby just about all mystical/supernatural phemonenon fall under the broad heading of 'Ether', and in which any/all users of ethereal abilities are able to match with any/all other users of ethereal abilities. Player A's Ki-based defenses and manipulations work against Player B's Prana-based manipulations and defenses, and vice versa. The system is intended to universalize applicability between different schools of magic or energy manipulation to better facilitate play.

This concept is so fundamental to how we play that I'm not actually surprised nobody ever explained it, we just assume it without thinking about it, but nobody here is trying to get one over on the rest of the tournament. Our stuff works on you because you're a body and that's what it's targeted at, but in turn all of your stuff also works on us, because they're ethereal abilities and they interact with our ethereal abilities in the way they're meant to.

Because that is literally the point of Fair Play.


Gonna be honest, in all of my chi/ki/prana/ether based character builds, I've always just recognized that all of them really, essentially, the same thing with a different name. At least, by their fictional (and by extension, RPing) merits, Chi/Ki=Prana. That's just what I've seen.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@Decoy
MARTY, WE HAVE TO GO BACK!
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Guru
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Looks like time is pretty much up. Looking forward to reading these fights. Good luck everyone.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Liaison
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The ideology in which DLL speaks of in regard to energies is one I personally follow myself because its basically common sense.(Rather it should be)
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dias Blade
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I wasn't really going to say anything about this.

Essentially, Ether/Mana/MP/Spirit/Ki/Chi/Aura/Ckakra/etc. are all the same thing, just go by different names. They are all labels used to identify spiritual/magical energy which is typically regarded as a fuel for a wide range of powers unless the writer specifically denotes an actual difference. But said "different" energy would be what Mobius is referring to as "Realm Energies" which implies its a form of energy which someone is regarding as unique to their own stories.

And that is basically the problem with said Realm Energies, because people can usually pick and choose what can or cannot effect it, because its unique for them and them alone. (Not saying I'm against folks using their own creative ideas of energy, just trying to keep things in perspective is all) As opposed to the concept of Ether which is being applied as a broad term to refer to Magical/Spiritual Energy in general.

The REAL differences are how people USE Ether for their characters. Some folks will use Magic that actually draws upon their internal reserves of energy or merely draw upon the energy around them. Others will likewise employ different mechanics. In terms of magic, this is usually embodied in the VAST variety of different schools; Necromancy, Conjuration, Destruction, so on and so forth. And even then, there are likewise even MORE variations of each individual school.

But at the end of the day, it always boils back down to the unifying concept that Magic is Magic is Magic.

Fantasy is broken down into Magic or Spirits.
Sci-Fi is simply Tech. But Tech can also cover a huuuuuuuuuuuge category. And in many respects, Tech and Magic can coincide with one another. For example, Mass Effect "Biotics" is more deemed as Tech in this sense because its more biological in nature.

Its all about what you're using and how you're using it.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Keileon
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Mana/MP/etc doesn't usually equate Spirit/Ki/Prana/other "life" energies in most settings, I think. They're similar but highly distinct from each other. (and Ether/Aether can be another thing entirely, depending)

But either way it's good that TZDL doesn't inherently specify any of this and leaves it to the players. Mixing concepts from different universes/settings/communities is a messy business and why I avoided it for Jason.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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is it too late to throw up a sheet?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dias Blade
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@Keileon Eh. The only real difference there is whether or not you're drawing upon energy from within yourself or from external sources. But I've seen Mana used to describe living energy in nature as well as within the body and vice versa. That's why I say these words are LITERALLY interchangeable at the drop of a hat, boils down to nothing more than personal preference in terms of which labels one likes better.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Keileon
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@Keileon Eh. The only real difference there is whether or not you're drawing upon energy from within yourself or from external sources. But I've seen Mana used to describe living energy in nature as well as within the body and vice versa. That's why I say these words are LITERALLY interchangeable at the drop of a hat, boils down to nothing more than personal preference in terms of which labels one likes better.


Yeah, it just depends on the setting. There are some where Mana and Prana are both different things in the universe, some where one exists but not the other, and some where they're the same thing. Creative liberties and all. Kind of interesting, but it means these settings can be tricky to mix which is what I was getting at.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Enki
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Unless special ability A colliding with special ability B cancels, effects, explodes, redirects, or well...can interact in some way no matter where they come from (energywise) I don't think this will work out.

It's always been that way, otherwise you create a superior energy source. If that's the case then we all need to go back and change up what is used.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Mobius
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The way you seem to be arguing it, these two would be completely unable to defend against each other's abilities and whoever shoots first wins, because 'Ki' doesn't interact with 'Prana'.


Why should it? There is no universal law that dictates the energy infrastructure of free-form. People create all sorts of things that behave in all sorts of ways with a multitude of fluff to either justify its properties to keep others from using it or for flavor. There are and were profiles of completely custom builds using energy types only unique to them to avoid abiding by "realm energies" which is a testament that not everything has to be connected by the way YOU describe them.

Also whoever shoots first wins is the ideal situation of combat, but that's unrelated to what you are subscribing.

The most we can do with compatibility is compare it to each other and their properties. We determine the behavior based on what was described. Dread energy deteriorates shit. So we throw lightning in? Well the behavior and ability of dread behaves one way so we abide by that. We cannot say lightning is unaffected; however, lightning is fast so we take into account its property and behavior equally. In this case it'd be based on what was constructed in the fight, how players described them, and what inherent properties they manipulate if any. In that situation it is word for word. The conflict is HOW both of them behave when in contact. Pollen's shroud, for example, describes how dark particles attack and slow down fast moving objects. We ranked it as S3 because despite what it can do it is limited not just in volume, but in ways I won't describe here without ruining a player strategy. It can still be interacted in a variety of ways meaning you don't need a specific build to handle it. How would this be compatible with Ether? From what I can see Ether is the engine of energies in a universe for magic or whatever, but who else abides by that? What if my world doesn't have ether. Are you going to say it does because you described it as such? Who are you? Do you understand where this is going?

We do not adhere to realm energies. We don't mind you having it to a specific extent (stacking not withheld) because that is how your characters operate. You use "ether" to generally pull from a variety of different types of energies to "fight" opponents with more specific builds and the potential to broaden its application for things that are more unique or obscure makes it a catch-all for stacking. You can draw from it or generate it, but to describe your opponent as using Ether when they explicit never used the term is Godmodding. This is the same debate from Discord "My magic vs your not magic" and my stance has always been:

If it isn't what you describe then it isn't your type of energy.

That is one of the basic free-form functions back when people used "chips" or devices to cancel out all magic in an area. Players will go "well I don't use magic" and then another will bring up the definition of magic in a fruitless attempt to blanket their foe in reclassification; however, the definition of magic works against them by virtue of "well just because YOU don't know how it works doesn't mean I don't" which can reclassify what you believe to be magic as not magic. The opposite is also true because if I copy and pasted how a m1911 works from ammunition type, powder, to the simple hammer ad decided to classify it as magic in my profile then it is magic.

Luchalliance players, however, have adopted a system whereby just about all mystical/supernatural phemonenon fall under the broad heading of 'Ether', and in which any/all users of ethereal abilities are able to match with any/all other users of ethereal abilities. Player A's Ki-based defenses and manipulations work against Player B's Prana-based manipulations and defenses, and vice versa. The system is intended to universalize applicability between different schools of magic or energy manipulation to better facilitate play.


Which is why I said "We don't do what you do in your own roleplay". Your personal energy catch-all is incompatible with whoever says it isn't to them.

This concept is so fundamental to how we play that I'm not actually surprised nobody ever explained it, we just assume it without thinking about it,


That was a critical mistake on your part entirely because you assumed it is universal on an ooc level. It isn't. It is only universal when people accept it as such. The main issue we had in this tournament are people not reading the rules:

Stacking - To place many different and/or unrelated powers/abilities on a character is regulated. There is no determined number of power(s) a character has access to, or how many different abilities a character can enact due to a specific power. An endless stack of limitless potential is restricted based on how wide of an application each power has in perspective to their potency; likewise, numerous applications of one power may also be regulated. This ruling will encompass any and all equipment too.

4th sentence of that ruling. The Stacking ruling is regulated because it is hard to determine how much or how little something can be considered stacking making it a very hard rule to enforce; however, a blatant amount of stacking, such as Ether, can easily be identified because it is a universal "realm energy" that can be used for anything and everything. Read the rules. The problem isn't compatibility. The problem is that you, and your crew, don't read. That isn't an attack on you. That is an attack on your ideaology to roleplaying because you cannot take the time to accommodate to the game you are playing, and then make the assumption that I will accommodate to you. This is what got Ultron rejected.

If it was such a fundamental law we wouldn't have this kind of discussion. No one would.

but nobody here is trying to get one over on the rest of the tournament. Our stuff works on you because you're a body and that's what it's targeted at, but in turn all of your stuff also works on us, because they're ethereal abilities and they interact with our ethereal abilities in the way they're meant to.


That is an assumption you are making. My main's doesn't use ethereal shit (not anymore specifically) and is classified at best as "natural" or metahuman at best. The core function of MY character is physical down to the brain, but it doesn't subscribe to how you'd describe ethereal. We are compatible as we aren't. I don't even know what Ethereal is outside of the definition, and this is a HUGE problem with regards to how powers work. No one has a clear-cut agreed way of something working in a particular way because it doesn't exist. Roleplayers in a chat server somewhere in a tavern setting probably don't even know what your brand of ether is and if they do agree they had no problem interacting in roleplaying without it.

Because that is literally the point of Fair Play.


Fair play can be misinterpreted for anyone's individual benefit.

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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Decoy
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@Dynamo FrokaneYes; Deadline was last night
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by AtlasRize
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The main issue we had in this tournament are people not reading the rules:

Stacking - To place many different and/or unrelated powers/abilities on a character is regulated. There is no determined number of power(s) a character has access to, or how many different abilities a character can enact due to a specific power. An endless stack of limitless potential is restricted based on how wide of an application each power has in perspective to their potency; likewise, numerous applications of one power may also be regulated. This ruling will encompass any and all equipment too.

4th sentence of that ruling. The Stacking ruling is regulated because it is hard to determine how much or how little something can be considered stacking making it a very hard rule to enforce; however, a blatant amount of stacking, such as Ether, can easily be identified because it is a universal "realm energy" that can be used for anything and everything. Read the rules. The problem isn't compatibility. The problem is that you, and your crew, don't read. That isn't an attack on you. That is an attack on your ideaology to roleplaying because you cannot take the time to accommodate to the game you are playing, and then make the assumption that I will accommodate to you. This is what got Ultron rejected.

If it was such a fundamental law we wouldn't have this kind of discussion. No one would.


So... You don't like our characters because they're not one trick ponies? Because that's how that little rant reads. I can understand saying "you can't have thirty powers that make no sense together" because it's nonsensical. However if those powers are related and logically make sense as working in some sort of system (like a metahuman who can initially control fire later developing the ability to change his physical structure into an energy state - pyromorphism - would be related thematically and logically) I'm not sure I see the issue. Is this what's causing people friction? I mainly ask because I would really love to know what's rubbing you the wrong way here. And the ether argument is, frankly, pretty stupid. I have never once seen anyone argue that just because a different label is affixed to it that it shouldn't interact unless they're specifically trying to be a power gaming douche bag. Let's not do that kids.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by Mobius
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So... You don't like our characters because they're not one trick ponies?


The opposite is true.

Because that's how that little rant reads.


Irrelevant.

I can understand saying "you can't have thirty powers that make no sense together" because it's nonsensical.


No, in fact the opposite is true. I cannot say "it doesn't make sense to have this," on someone's profile sheet. I can assume so from a tactical standpoint, but that is NOT my place to judge. A player who wants to have a fire elemental using ice does not need my input as I cannot tell him what does or does not make sense. This is the problem you, and your group, struggle with. You try to impose a system that our tournament doesn't operate on, but you'd prefer I say "it doesn't make sense" which is much more arbitrary than some established and enforceable rule. I can equally say "well ether doesn't make sense" and then what?

However if those powers are related and logically make sense as working in some sort of system (like a metahuman who can initially control fire later developing the ability to change his physical structure into an energy state - pyromorphism - would be related thematically and logically) I'm not sure I see the issue.


Whose logic does any of this follow? None of the things anyone's powers do or even the powers themselves exist. How do you determine a logical "sense" of made up shit? You know what does make sense? At least crafting rules that a particular type of something doesn't encompass a broad ranges of things so it isn't super effective against all types. That is something we can all agree on because "Godmodding" wouldn't be an almost acceptable rule in general T1 roleplaying. You guys can come in with your character's structure because that's not what's being contested. The application of such a thing IS being contested.

And the ether argument is, frankly, pretty stupid. I have never once seen anyone argue that just because a different label is affixed to it that it shouldn't interact unless they're specifically trying to be a power gaming douche bag. Let's not do that kids.


That's all good and all, but you and your group signed up for the tournament so you signed up for the conditions and stipulations set by it. You have ignored one of the basic points of my post when I said how things interact CAN be tabulated even if they aren't "universally" compatible which it itself is a really illogical concept as forces in real life, no matter how compatible, will and do conflict with each other. Friction is a thing.

Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by AtlasRize
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You try to impose a system that our tournament doesn't operate on, but you'd prefer I say "it doesn't make sense" which is much more arbitrary than some established and enforceable rule. I can equally say "well ether doesn't make sense" and then what?


I fail to see how we're trying to impose anything on anyone other than just simply saying "this is how these characters that we created work." None of us is dictating how other people's entries work. Also I still think you're missing the point that "ether" is just a word used to encompass an array of other things.

Whose logic does any of this follow? None of the things anyone's powers do or even the powers themselves exist. How do you determine a logical "sense" of made up shit? You know what does make sense? At least crafting rules that a particular type of something doesn't encompass a broad ranges of things so it isn't super effective against all types. That is something we can all agree on because "Godmodding" wouldn't be an almost acceptable rule in general T1 roleplaying. You guys can come in with your character's structure because that's not what's being contested. The application of such a thing IS being contested.


Logic is logic, and applies equally well to fantasy as it does to reality. Unless you're operating on a basis of intended refutation of logic for some reason - chaos, entropy, some of the more bizarre things that have popped up in comics over the years whose stated intention is to defy logic purposefully - then logic can be applied regardless of the fantastical nature of the subjects you're working with. Logic is just logic. "Does it make sense for Subject A to interact in this manner with Subject B" or "Is there an understandable relationship between Subject C and Subject D." Fantasy and logic are not mutually exclusive concepts. Don't conflate logic with realism.

You have ignored one of the basic points of my post when I said how things interact CAN be tabulated even if they aren't "universally" compatible which it itself is a really illogical concept as forces in real life, no matter how compatible, will and do conflict with each other. Friction is a thing.


I don't see that this is being ignored at all. Frankly, I'm afraid this whole thing is now getting buried in semantics. Forces interact, as they should. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but everything I've seen suggests that you're saying that the forces don't interact. Apologies if I am misunderstanding your point of view, but the whole point of the way some of the characters are built is that the forces do indeed interact, regardless of what label that has been applied to them. Really, that's the whole concept behind this "ether" term that you seem to dislike.

And just to state, I'm not trying to be bothersome or cause trouble, but merely to ensure that everyone is getting a fair and impartial shake when it comes to the submission process, regardless of their point of origin or affiliation or who their friends are. I've been in your shoes, and I understand that it can be tiresome to wade through things on occasion and it sometimes isn't always easy to fully grasp an unfamiliar piece of writing without the context. If you'd like I'm more than happy to try and help clarify things that might not be readily apparent or that the back and forth between the judges and entrants isn't quite explaining. I see no need for butting heads when, at least in my experience, things usually just need to be explained in a different way.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Metal Tortoise
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Except I didnt expect anyone to accommodate to me. I even ASKED if I could change around a thing or two to accommodate for this tournament, fuck, I even said I'd edit the submitted profile, I EVEN NEUTERED THE WAY I PLAY ULTRON TO GIVE A 'FAIR AND BALANCED' WAY four the tournament which...I'm more suspecting its 'whatever we like/want' at this point rather then your damn rules.

Nice try though, doofus.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Mobius
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I fail to see how we're trying to impose anything on anyone other than just simply saying "this is how these characters that we created work." None of us is dictating how other people's entries work. Also I still think you're missing the point that "ether" is just a word used to encompass an array of other things.


No I know exactly how it functions. The concern and general violation is the stack, and if not the stack is the borderline Schedule 2 because it can be formed to do anything.

Logic is logic, and applies equally well to fantasy as it does to reality. Unless you're operating on a basis of intended refutation of logic for some reason - chaos, entropy, some of the more bizarre things that have popped up in comics over the years whose stated intention is to defy logic purposefully - then logic can be applied regardless of the fantastical nature of the subjects you're working with. Logic is just logic. "Does it make sense for Subject A to interact in this manner with Subject B" or "Is there an understandable relationship between Subject C and Subject D." Fantasy and logic are not mutually exclusive concepts. Don't conflate logic with realism.


You are conflating logic with fantasy considering people can come in with whatever they want however they want it. The very thing Ether is a contention for, but somehow that's more "logical" than saying it doesn't exist.

I don't see that this is being ignored at all. Frankly, I'm afraid this whole thing is now getting buried in semantics. Forces interact, as they should. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but everything I've seen suggests that you're saying that the forces don't interact. Apologies if I am misunderstanding your point of view, but the whole point of the way some of the characters are built is that the forces do indeed interact, regardless of what label that has been applied to them. Really, that's the whole concept behind this "ether" term that you seem to dislike.


Your little jabs aside -- then we can agree that there is an interaction. Why does an omni-power require compatibility again?

Here is my stance because apparently this hasn't been stated or perhaps certain people are misconstruing the issue. I don't care about fluff. I don't care what you name the color pink as even if it's red or blue or no color at all. I don't mind you and your crew wanting Ether for their own characters and powers, because that isn't the point of contention. I don't care if someone has a Naruto character that uses Chakra, as Chakra behaviors similarly to Ether minus the whole multiverse lore. The problem isn't the Ether but its potential application. The application of such a tremendous blanketed power with a broad classification you guys advocating for is what I am after. You got it twisted. The issue is that with how it is presented it can be applied to do an array of EVERYTHING no matter how out of the way it is. You are subscribing to a "realm energy" where you can conjure any force or any kind of power(s) type. That is Stacking by definition of the tournament.

I don't mind the energy itself if it functioned to justify your character's power(s) and sub-types, but all I have seen is "it can do anything" and then allows you to do everything. The oversight of Laser's Blazing Heart is exactly this. Some of you even described it as an unlimited plane of everything. The worst can be that, potentially, you can even classify other people's powers to Ether which can give you the "root" or "fundamental" building blocks to cripple or even meta an attack. This is why TZDL will not adhere to realm energies. I don't mind them for your characters if it is isolated to just that, but I ask for a scale down on how infinitely broad it is in application.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by AtlasRize
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I feel like you're missing the point, but let's move on. I offered my help in pithing things out and ensuring understanding, and I'll now leave it at that. Again, looking forward to how things pan out.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by plsdeletemyacc
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Drama is the one way to make me wish I'd applied. Damn.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Geraven
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I'm gonna go ahead and bow out of this one. Just feel like I'll have to change up too much of the character to fit the rules. Nothing against you guys, and I will still be watching to see who wins. I put my money on Dias. ^_^
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