@POOHEAD189 How is being able to kick/ban anyone you dislike, and getting away with it at no costs to yourself, not a blatant social benefit?

I was banned for (not) breaking a rule which doesn't even exist on this site. And we still haven't seen the proof of Nyt or J8cob's wrongdoing. In fact the mods cannot even deign to tell them what they did wrong in the first place, instead making up bullshit about how they "know what they did wrong."

From what I've seen of your ban, it was a little short on Nutts side which he admitted and lifted the ban. We're not perfect decision making machines, we make mistakes and I can only speak for myself in this context, but I will admit to them when I make them.

As for no cost to yourself, there has been an instance of a moderator being removed from their position and being banned for abusing their position about 2.5 years back. So I wouldn't say there was no costs whatsoever.

As towards the screenshots, I will publicly admit they don't reflect positively on the people involved, but whether it constitutes abuse of power is less clear cut. Furthermore it's not my position to pass an official ruling on that, it is down to the admins.

@Nytem4re

In regards to your concerns, we are a collection of individuals who try and cooperate together to pass a ruling on events. Some staff may want to be more open, others more closed. But if you have a genuine concern/request, bring it to me and I will pass it on to the mod forum. Or bring it to Hank and he will pass it on.

The process instituted when we first established the moderator positions was that we always made mutual decisions unless it was a situation that demanded an immediate response. I am happy to discuss what that kind of situation is if you want.

@POOHEAD189

You misunderstand what Pug was saying.

You misunderstand what Pug was saying.

That's how it's being treated right now, not how I want it to be treated. You're confusing prescriptive and descriptive ethics, which is, like, Logic 101, dude.

Well initially you said that the position has benefits, which could either mean 1) It comes with the job of being a Mod. Or 2) these particular mods do this, and I went with the former. That's my bad.

P.S.

Curiously, as it interests me a great deal, what exactly do people want done/changed? What policies and all.

Tell them in Cyn's thread that I want an apology from Mahz.

@Kangaroo

I mean, the head admin himself said he wasn't willing to discuss my j8's/ban, claiming it was between me and him. Even then he made it clear he was not going to listen to any repeals made by me or j8cob.

Even though people speak very harsh words about Ruby, She was responsive (to my dms at least, I know people have had different experiences) and even told me she attempted to repeal my ban, however, it was obviously unsuccessful. I appreciate that at least, seeing as how most of my criticisms were about her most recent actions at the time, and we were able to both walk away on amicable terms, even coming to an agreement.

We've had genuine concerns and requests, denied time and time again by other mods- While I am appreciative you are willing to hear me out, again, as I pointed out earlier, there's really no point when the head admin already said he would stand by my ban with little to no discussion, as evidenced by j8cob's attempt.

I forgot to also add I wanted uniform application of the rules- You weren't there on the discord when I decided to air my shortcoming about babycrib and the lack of a proper warn then ban system, (Chai, another user on the thread also expressed the same misgivings about the so called "babycrib") Yet only I was targeted. So why was Chai, this other user not targeted? She can vouch for me since babycrib is obviously now deleted. It makes little to no sense, which is why I've really not talked about the issues I had until now- seeing as Nutts and Mahz are willing to disregard what I say, I didn't feel there was a point in protesting any of it.

And as you say, as things are supposedly mostly mutual decision, if Mahz is going to stamp his foot down, then dming you would have little change from DMing mahz or nutts themselves.

<Snipped quote by Master>
<Snipped quote by pugbutter>
Well initially you said that the position has benefits, which could either mean 1) It comes with the job of being a Mod. Or 2) these particular mods do this, and I went with the former. That's my bad.

No biggie.

Honestly I shouldn't even be getting involved, because I'm new and all so my presence here hasn't been "established" yet - in which my opinions don't carry much weight.

But in numerous RP sites in the past I've been a moderator, so I have the understanding of the headaches all this is causing. Hell I'm almost 31, I've seen a lot. This thread is proof that the mods are trying to figure out how to make this right.

Which is cool.

That's why I suggested the ban thread, where the names and links/screenshots of what got them banned be somewhere. That way, if a Mod wanted to abuse their power it would be more difficult because they would have to post the proof of their judgement for all to see. It would give an accountability to their actions.

@Nytem4re

Again, I wasn't present for the events being discussued, I can only pass my judgement on the available information. Given that's from a deleted discord, most information is without context.

Discussions are freer between staff than they are between staff and users as we share a mutual task. It's simply a reality of the role but if you wish to provide me with more context, my inbox is available.

@Master

The issue we have with public announcing of bans is that it previously used to lead to celebration of bans and competitions to see who could 'trigger', for the lack of a better work, staff. In reality the system worked for around two years with bans not being openly discussed, but perhaps it has swung too far the other way.

Discussions are being had about this.

I wrote up a whole long thing only to realize that I have only one useful thing to add to the main discussion here.

I'm glad, really sincerely glad, to see this thread. All sites have issues, some more than others -- people are jerks! -- but knowing that there is a place here for civil discussion of issues that are causing unwanted drama around the site is a relief. I've been caught in some of that drama and it's no fun at all. I hope this is the start of a friendlier, more open chapter for the Guild. It's far too hard to find active rp sites, and I hope this place continues for a long time.

@angelofoctober Ahhh, someone who understands.

@Kangaroo Welcome back! *hops on*

@Didgeridont Can I just say I love your sn? <3

@shylarah

I was an Administrator, Head Administrator and founder of my own website for three years. I speak from knowing what I expected of my mods at the time I found my website.

And I'm in the works [this is not advertising btw] of making my second website, as a Head Administrator. I knew that I was frustrated with an old website I came form and frustrated with the way politics were played out, and always being a member and never been promoted on a website I had been part for near 4 years at the time. I wanted to do things differently.

I always believed moderators were held accountable held for their actions. I always believed moderators first job is not to punish, but here the two sides of the story. No bans, no threats. I wish I had old screen shots, but we didn't really need to archive anything because our members were often quite mature. So we felt the need not to archive anything.

We had a three chain system. We had Mediators, they were often the people people went to first when there was a situation. After the mediators if they couldn't get through it go through the Admins and Moderators, and they often would give them one last nudge to comply. Then it went up to me and my co-founder.

But it rarely worked that way.

But I always believed Moderators were not just beacons of power. But symbols of behavior. Role models of behavior. They displayed the same behavioral expectations we had of everyone.

I rather make a reasonable compromise between two members who may have misunderstood each other. Then determine who is to blame and who is in the right. Because not every situation is someone go to be wholeheartedly in the right, very few situations call for that. There is saying "it takes two to tango"

For what it's worth:

I did speak to Hank and Mahz about Nyt's chat ban.

Cynder is free to send me messages if she wants, I'm certainly over any personal issues we've had in the past from before I became site Staff again. Understandable if she isn't but from my side, all good.

Beyond that, anyone can DM/PM me if they want to talk about anything Guild related. I may not let you rage at me, and I don't have a lot of interest in litigating decisions from the past, but I'm always happy to try to explain where I'm coming from, and if it's not an issue involving me I'd be happy to listen and bring it up to other site staff if wanted/needed.

Thanks!

At this point I feel that it is time for me to make an official statement on the events of current, for which I will be offering some transparency while keeping some details silent as to protect the identies of those who may be discussed in my message. I would also like to state that I am "choosing" of my own accord to enter this thread and this discussion, but anyone who wishes to hear more information should PM or DM me on the forum or Discord.

The first concern I will address is the issue of bans, both on the forum and discord, along with the view of "shadow bans". Discussing bans on the public forum is not allowed, but due to the nature of this thread I feel that we have an obligation to explain what happens behind the scenes.

• Odin/Buddha: (Discord Only)
  Let it be said that Odin is a very passionate member of the forum. He is a man who will fight for justice, someone who will stand their ground against those who abuse power, but his latest actions in Discord led to a ban from the chat. While he did raise a concern about a certain thread the delivery of his concern actively baited another user, mocked the moderators with a passive aggressive tone, and voiced an unreasonable expectation of the staff to address a question that even he himself could have addressed. We are a community and instead of reinforcing that view he took it as an opportunity to attack several others.
• Pugbutter: (Temporary Ban)
  I recently gave Pugbutter a temporary ban from the site after an incident went down in the Bitch 2.0 thread and I was requested by an outside party member to intervene. This has not been the first time the moderator team has addressed issues in this thread and so I entered, read through the comments to get a rough idea of what was going on, and posted a cease and desist message with the additional comment of I will temporarily ban any member that continues the dispute. Due to a quote and a reply that was in jest, I issued out a ban to the member known as pugbutter as I at the time happened to view the message as a possible test of my patience and wanted to make a statement that these fights are to stop. Several hours later I removed the ban and I have since apologized to pugbutter about the miscommunication and short sighted approach.
• [Undisclosed Member] (Weekend Ban)
  A GM of a roleplay recently had to thread ban a member of a roleplay for arguing with the GM and trolling the IC with an unreasonable post. The member in question contacted me and asked the IC post to be removed and so I took up that request and abided by their wishes. As an extension I contacted the member and told them their actions were unreasonable to which I noticed they deleted my message, and then drafted up a message with the comment of "If I was going to troll a thread I would not make post that concluded my character's story. Don't be a moron."
• [Undisclosed Member] (Permanent Ban)
  This member, to put it simply, was an underage 14yo user who was participating in a series of smut roleplays. She had been known for a while but due to the circumstantial evidence we never had enough information to follow through with that ban without it being viewed as unjust. It was only after new evidence came forth that we could action this ban and issue a message to ensure that they do not return to the forum. We also informed the member that should we catch them back on the forum under a different alias that we will be forwarding the IP addresses and listed emails to the City of Phoenix police department—the site domain is registered in Arizona—with the belief that they intent to break US Law by engaging in the act of promoting child sex crimes.
• J8cob (Permanent Ban)
  J8cob's ban was a result in contributing with Grim's actions and a choice he made to actively mock me in his signature image. At the time I was engaged in a private discussion with him that seemed to going at a reasonable but slowly positive pace, however he made the decision to troll and place a quote by me in his own signature midway through that conversation. I decided passed the information onto Mahz and he dealt with it as he saw fit. Shortly after he created an appeal account to address Mahz but due to the limited time frame we were not given enough of an opportunity to reflect on his actions and evaluate his appeal. My recommendations for J8cob is now that most of the initial problem has settled he should make a fresh appeal that isn't clouded by the events of 2 months ago.*
• Grimhildr / Wade Wilson / Gullinkambi / memes / RPG News (Permanent Ban)
  Every one of these accounts has been connected back to the single user, who I will be referring to as Grim. Grim's ban has been listed in the Evidence Chest but they will not be allowed back onto the forum. Ranging from Ban evasion, to trolling/flaming members, to using an official account to slander multiple members on the forum with an image; this member has proven time and time again that they have no intention of being a part of the community. This decision is now a non-negotiable.

_{*On the question of why we do not allow other members to create an appeal for a ban member, the last two cases show the various extremes of someone who has obeyed the rules of their ban, and someone who intends to continue with their immaturity. We need to evaluate the user on an individual level.
(Nyt: Your Discord ban is currently being reviewed)}

The next point I would like to address is Cyndyr's decision for quoting my Private discussion with her. You by no means were obligated to display the additional portion of that discussion that I held with you, but you chose to do so. The reason why I directed you to Ruby was because I had no part in that discussion and if you would like to remedy any views on your persona then it would probably be a wiser decision to talk to the Staff Member in question rather than someone who was at the time heading second hand news.

As pointed out you and Ruby had some sort of dispute that branches back to before the creation of RPG Official and you should be the one to take responsibility for those actions. The mention of accountability has been bought up in this thread, but by creating this thread you have also involved multiple members of the community who have nothing to do with the events being discussed. Do you take ownership for that in the same way that I have taken ownership for the bans, and mistakes, that I have made within my short time as a moderator?

Your actions here, combined with Grim's actions, and even the actions of the staff, have affected many members in a negitive way. Friendships have been lost, trust shattered throughout the community, and the screenshots of who is the worse person needs to stop if we have any desire to move forward. Continuing to fight, rather than discuss; aggravated rants, rather than reports; and even quick reactions rather than a step back and reflection, have all stopped people from roleplaying and forced them into a battle of site politics. In future, raise your concerns through the correct channels so we can deal with them more efficiently.

---

Finally, to discuss the actions in controlling Negro Academy...

The reason why this thread stood up for so long was simply due to the availability of the moderators at the time. We cannot be expected to live on this forum when many of us have working lives and offline priorities. Even branching back seven years ago when I was an admin of a graphics forum I was only able to access the site from home due to the lack of mobile internet. Now days my phone pings every time I get a message from a member about a site issue, but my work permissions don't allow me suitable time to sit down and evaluate every issue within an hour of it occurring. (Bare in mind that my hours are incident so I can be working any time between the hours of 5am and 10pm Australian time)

When Negro Academy was addressed the decision was made to contact the member and see what addition information we could gather. Typically speaking a member does not randomly join a site to post these types of threads unless they are a Bot, to which we believed they weren't. If that member is found to be another member of the forum then we will address the original member as well, or would you have us not make that effort and simply "shadow ban"?

Might I also add that there was no report by a member from my knowledge, and if these threads appear in the future it would be advisable to post in the Suggestions/Problems section rather than a vocal, annoyed opinion on the discord.

To conclude I will not be discussing this post any more and if someone wishes to see additional evidence on the bans, to discuss the accountability of the staff, or to question the meaning of my message, they are to PM me directly. Keep in mind that you will be talking to a site moderator and if I deem the topic not to a satisfactory, mature level I will declare the topic annul.

The next point I would like to address is Cyndyr's decision for quoting my Private discussion with her. You by no means were obligated to display the additional portion of that discussion that I held with you, but you chose to do so. The reason why I directed you to Ruby was because I had no part in that discussion and if you would like to remedy any views on your persona then it would probably be a wiser decision to talk to the Staff Member in question rather than someone who was at the time heading second hand news.

As pointed out you and Ruby had some sort of dispute that branches back to before the creation of RPG Official and you should be the one to take responsibility for those actions. The mention of accountability has been bought up in this thread, but by creating this thread you have also involved multiple members of the community who have nothing to do with the events being discussed. Do you take ownership for that in the same way that I have taken ownership for the bans, and mistakes, that I have made within my short time as a moderator?

Your actions here, combined with Grim's actions, and even the actions of the staff, have affected many members in a negitive way. Friendships have been lost, trust shattered throughout the community, and the screenshots of who is the worse person needs to stop if we have any desire to move forward. Continuing to fight, rather than discuss; aggravated rants, rather than reports; and even quick reactions rather than a step back and reflection, have all stopped people from roleplaying and forced them into a battle of site politics. In future, raise your concerns through the correct channels so we can deal with them more efficiently.

I was under the impression that this was a discussion, is it not? I meant no harm with the creation of this topic and I personally believe that it has begun to reflect positively on the forums overall as it shows a willingness in the community to communicate and change. I will own and take ownership for any negativity that has been caused by the creation of this topic, otherwise, I simply see this message as an attempt to shift blame onto me.

I do acknowledge, however, that you are right and I should have simply spoken with Ruby which is an action that I do apologize for. It was an action that I believe would have resulted in further damage, but based on what Ruby herself has said on this thread, then I realize that the outcome may have been opposite from what I had initially expected.

With that in mind, I do appreciate both you and Ruby coming forward to join the discussion as well as investigating Nyte's ban.

@NuttsnBolts

So if pug wasn't banned for having a quote from another moderator (not saying i condone it) why did J8cob get banned subsequently? Seems like they should have gotten the same treatment.

And honestly, I don't like how you pin this all on Cynder as if she was the only one taking screenshots. If I remember correctly you did as well in the past. You are not as innocent as you portray yourself.

<Snipped quote by NuttsnBolts>
I was under the impression that this was a discussion, is it not? I meant no harm with the creation of this topic and I personally believe that it has begun to reflect positively on the forums overall as it shows a willingness in the community to communicate and change. I will own and take ownership for any negativity that has been caused by the creation of this topic, otherwise, I simply see this message as an attempt to shift blame onto me.

My intention is not to shift blame as I included the staff as well, but to see if you aware of the gravity of these discussions and how there is a very fine line between civil and uncivil. While this thread has been positive it does contain roots that extend back to unfavoured events of the past. Already I have seen Poo comment with a reply where he felt he really had to explain what it was he was saying without people reading between the lines or taking it out of context.

I do acknowledge, however, that you are right and I should have simply spoken with Ruby which is an action that I do apologize for. It was an action that I believe would have resulted in further damage, but based on what Ruby herself has said on this thread, then I realize that the outcome may have been opposite from what I had initially expected.

With that in mind, I do appreciate both you and Ruby coming forward to join the discussion as well as investigating Nyte's ban.

I appreciate your honesty and acknowledgment.

@NuttsnBolts

So if pug wasn't banned for having a quote from another moderator (not saying i condone it) why did J8cob get banned subsequently? Seems like they should have gotten the same treatment.

And honestly, I don't like how you pin this all on Cynder as if she was the only one taking screenshots. If I remember correctly you did as well in the past. You are not as innocent as you portray yourself.

At this point in time I do not see a quote of Ruby in his signature and so there is no need to take action. He held one before but I believe you and I can agree that if we addressed that in the same manner as J8cob we would be in a worse position than currently.

Still, my explination for J8cob making his appeal is to set a proper understanding of how bans should be treated if they were unjust. By doing that we also have a record trail so we can keep forum matters logged correctly and not just word of mouth.

As for the screenshots by Cyndyr, I acknowledge that she was not in the original dispute but over time she became involved, I am not disputing that I did take and obtain some screenshots, but I will state that I was not the one who started the screenshots, that I did not share the ones from the staff discussion, and that instead of participating in these actions we have on multiple fronts made mountains out of molehills.

I appreciate that the mod in question was able to own up and admit a mistake, whereas I had assumed that "A week-long ban was too severe" would be the official excuse for why my ban was rescinded early.

Obviously I'm grateful that the ban was removed at all, too.

But @Nytem4re brings up an interesting point: if I was able to get away with my signature being forcibly altered/edited against my will, why was another user banned for what is effectively the same transgression? Furthermore, whereas that "no Discord drama" rule exists now, it did not exist at the time of that user's ban, so one could even argue that I deserve the stricter punishment.

And yes, I know it's claimed that j8cob did more to deserve a ban before that; that the offensive signature was a "last straw" of sorts. Although it's natural that under the "We don't discuss bans" rule, the public hasn't seen these reasons, apparently j8cob hasn't seen them either, and in fact has no idea what he did to build up this hay-bale in the first place.

It's just fishy overall, considering that shitposting and "trolling" are rather common here, and hardly grounds for a penal response.

My intention is not to shift blame as I included the staff as well, but to see if you aware of the gravity of these discussions and how there is a very fine line between civil and uncivil. While this thread has been positive it does contain roots that extend back to unfavoured events of the past. Already I have seen Poo comment with a reply where he felt he really had to explain what it was he was saying without people reading between the lines or taking it out of context.

I'm wondering if it is others who are unaware of the gravity of this discussion as I most certainly am. I, however, have been mocked repeatedly in the "Help" channel on the Official Guild Discord for the past three days for creating this topic, but here we are, discussing change as I had originally intended. I think that straying away from civil discussion no matter how ugly it gets is a little lazy and improper.

As for the screenshots by Cyndyr, I acknowledge that she was not in the original dispute but over time she became involved, I am not disputing that I did take and obtain some screenshots, but I will state that I was not the one who started the screenshots, that I did not share the ones from the staff discussion, and that instead of participating in these actions we have on multiple fronts made mountains out of molehills.

And where exactly had I involved myself to this situation prior to the creation of this topic? I asked to have my name removed from a list of negative associates and then said nothing more on the matter until nearly two months later. I would really like to see some evidence be provided to support this claim.

Additionally, I would like to ask for evidence supporting your claim that J8cob was somehow involved in Wade Wilson's ban. While I wasn't exactly active on the day of her ban due to work, I see their bans as two completely separate events and fail to see how they are correlated in the slightest. I would also ask how it was justified to refuse to tell J8cob what he did wrong, but I believe that is a question to ask Mahz at a later date.

Thank you in advanced for your response.

@NuttsnBolts
Pug has already addressed the whole "j8cob would have gotten worse" thing, so I'll go on to talk about other points made.

"I'm not the one who started it!"

Yet, don't you find it hypocritical you're condemning one person over tactics she used when you used it too? "I didn't start it" excuse isn't really a compelling one. You willingly took part in these so called tactics you supposedly are against. You perpetuated this "battle of site politics."

Thus, you share blame as well. Regardless of "who started it".

If you followed your own advice, would you have not DM'd the people who were "exposed" and asked them for context? Because I don't recall you doing that.

Nor did I ever get a DM asking me whether I actually had a lust for power/"upset over the supposed official discord". Nor did I get a DM from my first post in babycrib asking me to take it to "official channels".

You might argue I would have never found out, but if I remember correctly inkarnate took screens in Valhalla and you didn't rebuke him for a use of a tactic you claim is causing a "battle of site politics"? Valhalla was a private community at the time, so isn't this exactly what you're condemning now?

And pug didn't get his apology until recently, if this thread never happened would you have apologized? I don't know for sure because I don't know what made you apologize a week later, but for some reason I highly doubt you would have if this didn't come to light on this thread.

*misjudged the time pug went without an apology. said weeks, when it was about 10 days. changed in last sentence.

You might argue I would have never found out, but if I remember correctly inkarnate took screens in Valhalla and you didn't rebuke him for a use of a tactic you claim is causing a "battle of site politics"? Valhalla was a private community at the time, so isn't this exactly what you're condemning now?

This is pretty much the definition of false equivalence. I sent screenshots of a “private community” that was effectively conspiring to get Ruby removed from her place as moderator because of past transgressions and personal squabbles. Which by the way, I sent these images to the Site Administrator that a dangerous precedent was beginning to unfold that I personally found problematic despite being friendly acquaintances with the core group at the time. I never aired these images “publicly” and told Mahz specifically that I quote:

_{“It seems there is a particularly vocal sub-sect of the unofficial discord server that are confused, angry, and disappointed. I’m not sure how to report things in this manner since I don’t want to waste your time – I’m sure Cynder is expressing her concerns. With that said, I wish you the best in this situation. I’m currently watching the situation unfold. I’ve sent several picture evidence that I have forwarded to you.”}

It is only comparable if you take things at face value alone. But I do appreciate you trying to sow more dissent, Nyt.

I would also like to point out that I never took screenshots prior to my conversation with NuttsnBolts when creating this topic and then again to document the discussion between HeySeuss and NuttsnBolts regarding the lack of context provided in my OP. All of the other screenshots used by me in the OP were given to me by a myriad of other users both on Valhalla and elsewhere. Saying that I "started it" is far from true nor is this "a tactic" that I've been using. To even imply that either of those suggestions are true is inherently wrong in itself.

@NuttsnBolts@Nytem4re

@Inkarnate What I'm gathering from your "logic" is that sharing screenshots is perfectly okay as long as we enter a knee-jerk panic-response about how dangerous the screenshot's contents are.

And/or as long as I'm snitching to a mod and not to [insert person who mods dislike here].

This is pretty pathetic even as far as mental gymnastics go, seeing as how it's an eloquent, dressed up way of saying "as I say, not as I do."