You're never going to be in a romantic or sexual relationship with your RP partner.

I mean several people on this site do have relationships and a good number of them is due to social networking in group and private roleplays. I don’t imagine many went into that RP with the intent to seduce them, however.

Sigh.

Still waiting for an actual reason. Probably be waiting forever.

<Snipped quote by j8cob>

Once again, I'm not saying people CAN'T, I'm saying they SHOULDN'T.

Please explain to me how putting "I lack confidence in my sexuality so I only want to RP with girls" actually guarantees that all your partners will be girls. You can't claim that this is a method of reducing your obligation when you can't actually stop dudes from messaging you and pretending they are girls. It doesn't work like that, friend.

I didn't say it was smart, but there's nothing wrong with it. The fact that the site is broken into sections based on writing skill already proves that you can and should discriminate with who you roleplay with.

Morality is subjective, glad you understand that. That's why you should understand that it can't be morally unacceptable to discriminate in your RP partners by any metric. You can discriminate on skill and on roleplaying history, you can discriminate on anything you want. Nothing stopping you and you already do it anyways to a certain degree.

It can be morally unacceptable. To a set of morals. Which are subjective. I just don’t agree, by the morals and ethics I adhere to, that it is acceptable. In my view there is a line between what is acceptably discriminatory and what is not.

<Snipped quote by Drache>

I didn't say it was smart, but there's nothing wrong with it. The fact that the site is broken into sections based on writing skill already proves that you can and should discriminate with who you roleplay with.

Sorry but discriminating someone because their writing style doesn't match yours is not even close to the same as discriminating based one gender and nothing you say is going to change that.

@Odin

I think in that case instead of discriminating against others the adult and responsible thing to do would be to just not RP smut at all. To be honest, the fact that people are getting MORE bent out of shape about being gender-selective for smut RPs is actually proof to my point that there is something very skeevy and creepy about it. It goes right back to the "treating RPs as a dating service" thing. People should be able to RP with someone without conflating the IC and OOC relationships. The fact that some people can't is a problem. It leads to drama and worse. Sexism is the obvious main issue here, but even if it's not sexism exactly, it's still problematic. If you're playing your male character as being balls-deep in a female character and the RP is going well, why should it ruin it for anyone to find out that your partner is a guy instead of a girl? There is literally no logical or reasonable excuse for being uncomfortable. You're never going to be in a romantic or sexual relationship with your RP partner.

The real question here is "can we all be adults" and the answer I am getting is "no, no we can't."

Well, I think we're lucky that you're not here to dictate how others should and shouldn't RP. (And, additionally, I'm really really glad you're not here to dictate when people should get out of a relationship with someone. Jeez! Imagine your partner gets jealous once. Time to dive the fuck outta there!) You say;

There is literally no logical or reasonable excuse for being uncomfortable.

and you know, I kinda agree, but then it's also people's own business what they select their partners on. I wouldn't be offended if someone said 'I wanna RP with a gay person for my gay RP' because that's their choice. They could have a WILD variety to RP with gay people only. And y'know, if someone said 'I wanna RP with a black person!' I'd find that really strange, but y'know, I'd probably laugh and move on.

Is it 'ableism' if I select my partners based on whether or not they can write two words without spelling errors, or whether or not they can read the English language? Maybe they just never learnt. Sheesh.

If someone's enjoyment of the RP is based on sex of the partner, I find that highly strange and perhaps a bit stupid, but it's definitely not sexism and it definitely isn't 'problematic.' Unless you literally experience mental trauma from this or something in which case, please, seek help. Otherwise, just get over it. It's not your problem. If it bothers you, then you probably wouldn't want to roleplay with people like that anyway, right? So I'd see it more as a pre-warning about who these people really are.

The real question here is "can we all be adults" and the answer I am getting is "no, no we can't."

I don't know, I think I'm an adult. I fit the legal definition and, if I can be bothered, I can respond/behave myself in a mature way. I may not always feel like doing that because this place isn't that serious, but I can.

Also, if you're gonna drive the point home about being an adult, I also would like to ask you not to impose your definition of what is good or bad on others, or when to leave a partner. I think that'd be a pretty adult thing to do here.

Is discussing why you find something problematic and addressing it in a general sense necessarily dictating?

<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

And you don't see anything creepy with using RP to bait people into relationships? I mean, there's absolutely no problem with forming a genuine relationship with your partner. I met my spouse on a RP forum 15 years ago and we've been living together ever since and still RP almost daily, but we didn't find each other's genders out until 6 months into the RP.

This kind of bait-and-switch that you're suggesting is really fucked up.

<Snipped quote by ArenaSnow>

And you don't see anything creepy with using RP to bait people into relationships? I mean, there's absolutely no problem with forming a genuine relationship with your partner. I met my spouse on a RP forum 15 years ago and we've been living together ever since and still RP almost daily, but we didn't find each other's genders out until 6 months into the RP.

This kind of bait-and-switch that you're suggesting is really fucked up.

I think you're trying to inject orange juice into a side of apple, and this post is probably going to end up slingshotting right past yours, but to hit that specific question, I think people do try and do things that would be considered creepy in regards to forming relationships online under false premises/using specific requirements to get specific types of people. It's part of why I treat everyone online that isn't proven otherwise as a "roleplayer monogender" and use the male line of pronouns by default because there's basically no way to prove otherwise, and I'm a) not going to try to appeal to every form of supposed identity unless it's reasonable to go by an identity that someone wants to be identified by on the internet and b) not going to treat just about anything online as real considering how easy it is to fabricate one's identity or motives.

All that aside, I don't think that people specifying they want particular genders to apply mean anything malicious, and I don't even think the majority of people that say "looking for x to play x/y" are planning a "bait-and-switch" or trying to be creepy. I don't even let myself form such a relationship at all. I have my specific RL preferences for romantic relationships, and one of the specifications is, yes, gender. Where I make a distinction is between what happens on the character level and what happens on the OOC level. Many folks do not make such a distinction.

Even if someone wants specific genders and may lean towards something of a romantic nature down the road, I wouldn't say all of such people are malicious in intent. I can think of a few people who have frequented the 1x1 forum that I would ward someone against if asked directly about them. I don't think they stand for everyone who is looking for a particular gender.

So I'd see it more as a pre-warning about who these people really are.

At the end of the day, this is the real point. It does say a lot about who those people really are, and if this thread is any indication then I think it's really telling that those people don't like to be called out. You kind of proved my point for me, actually.

And please, I never said I wanted or intended to dictate how this forum handles RP or what the forum rules are. In fact, I have said the opposite several times, in case you missed it. This thread is long and I know it's probably hard to keep up but you're going over things that have already been said by others.

Also, without actually linking you to the women's shelter I donate to and volunteer at in my hometown, let me just say that it's a proven fact that jealousy and restricting a person from who they talk to online is a huge indication of a partner that is likely to end up becoming even more controlling and violent in the future and my recommendation will ALWAYS be for someone to leave a person like that because jealousy doesn't go away. But this is a separate issue and I spend a good deal of time in real life working with domestic abuse survivors, so feel free to PM me if you want to talk about that. <3

<Snipped quote by j8cob>

Sorry but discriminating someone because their writing style doesn't match yours is not even close to the same as discriminating based one gender and nothing you say is going to change that.

How is it not? Its literally discriminating and odds are its far stricter too. I've discriminated against people for petty shit and you've probably done the same.

Let's say there's some young girl who wants to do a 1x1 but only with other girls because she's uncomfortable with talking to boys both online and in the real world. She can make that choice and is morally sound in doing so. Discriminating to your own benefit is natural and often subconscious. How would she be able to confirm that she only works with other girls? Fuck if I know, probably no way to do it. But that doesn't mean she can't set that standard.

Now let's say there's a young man who also wants to do a 1x1 but only with women because he wants to smut and is uncomfortable with the idea of making erotic stuff with another man. He's remaining within his comfort zone and doesn't deserve criticism for it anymore than the girl from my first example.

You're adopting a really narrow worldview where these people are automatically sexists or terrible people or something and aren't just regular people themselves. Their opinions matter just as much as anyone else's, and when it comes to how they want to roleplay then their opinions matter even more than yours do.

<Snipped quote by j8cob>
It can be morally unacceptable. To a set of morals. Which are subjective. I just don’t agree, by the morals and ethics I adhere to, that it is acceptable. In my view there is a line between what is acceptably discriminatory and what is not.

Guess that means you shouldn't RP with people that do it then.

Kinda in the same way you probably wouldn't shop at a shop that openly promotes racist policy.

Funny how that works.

Is discussing why you find something problematic and addressing it in a general sense necessarily dictating?

I find that she wrote it in a way that sounded entirely dictative and matter of factly for a situation which, as you said, fits only subjective morals and opinions. That is my own interpretation, however subjective that may be. I think my analysis was rather spot on however.

@Inkarnate

No, unless you feel personally attacked. I think we triggered Odin. XD

I don't think Odin gets "triggered". I think he likes to debate things.

I don't think Odin gets "triggered". I think he likes to debate things.

You mean "dictate" things. Because those are the same.

Edit: Well, as much as I love this debate, no one has actually given a reason why selecting a partner strictly on gender isn't either sexist or at least the mark of a poor RPer or some kind of suspect motives.

Thanks, @DeadDrop for starting a lovely debate. It was nice. But now I get to go walk my new puppy!

Bye everyone!

<Snipped quote by Odin>

At the end of the day, this is the real point. It does say a lot about who those people really are, and if this thread is any indication then I think it's really telling that those people don't like to be called out. You kind of proved my point for me, actually.

What's that supposed to mean? Like I said I RP with everyone, of both the male and female variety, regardless of skin color, age or whatever other criteria they may meet. I didn't prove jack shit. That's you putting an assumption onto me.

And please, I never said I wanted or intended to dictate how this forum handles RP or what the forum rules are. In fact, I have said the opposite several times, in case you missed it. This thread is long and I know it's probably hard to keep up but you're going over things that have already been said by others.

I'm just repeating it because you didn't seem to hear it before. Sometimes, people need to be told the same thing over and over again, louder and louder, before it hits them in the head like a brick, and then they get it.

Or, y'know, just keep screaming sexism. Make everyone think you're one of those people.

Also, without actually linking you to the women's shelter I donate to and volunteer at in my hometown, let me just say that it's a proven fact that jealousy and restricting a person from who they talk to online is a huge indication of a partner that is likely to end up becoming even more controlling and violent in the future and my recommendation will ALWAYS be for someone to leave a person like that because jealousy doesn't go away. But this is a separate issue and I spend a good deal of time in real life working with domestic abuse survivors, so feel free to PM me if you want to talk about that. <3

OK ms. goody two shoes, I'm really glad you do all that work for women and all, but that doesn't change the fact that jealousy is a totally normal emotion to feel, ignoring the fact that neither does your volunteer work mean fuck all in the context of a debate. I work at the Defense but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start shouting my opinion of ICBM's off the roof. I'd like to read the study that states jealousy in whatever large or small amounts is objectively correlative with controlling and violence. Frankly I think you sucked that entire 'fact' out of your thumb.

Your recommendation, similarly, doesn't mean jack shit, just like your assumption about me, because it's based on thin air and anecdotes. If you want to advise someone to do that, however, be my guest. It says more about you than me because while you're venting your, quite frankly, stupid opinion, I'll just roll my eyes and think 'wow who would've known people like this exist.' Jealousy doesn't have to go away. Small amounts of jealousy are normal and healthy.

If your significant other never feels jealous, never ever then perhaps you need to consider how he thinks of you. Maybe you're just one of many. Me personally, I'd prefer to be the only one, but from my understanding you have different views of that. That's OK. No outspoken public judgement from me. I'd just ask that you don't judge me either.

'<3'

Give those women in your shelter my regards. I feel really sorry for them. Both for what they went through, and then getting stuck with someone like you. That sucks.

Sincerely, someone who definitely feels jealous sometimes, and is definitely not controlling or violent towards my partner(s).

@Inkarnate

No, unless you feel personally attacked. I think we triggered Odin. XD

XD

I don't think Odin gets "triggered". I think he likes to debate things.

Just responding to something I absolutely whole heartedly disagree with. I agree with the general consensus of this thread which is that it is stupid to demand a certain sex to RP with, but then I also think that we should just let the idiot kids have their playground, roll our eyes and not RP with those people.

Or, y'know, you can scream bloody murder and sexism and like I said above, make people think you're one of those people. Probably diminishes the amount of people wanting to RP with you equally as fast.

This is the best part, where Odin bitches about me "making assumptions" and then assumes he knows not only my gender but my spouse's gender also. Golden. Hypocrisy at it's finest!

The real best part is where y'all completely disregard the people "discriminating" and don't even attempt to look at the subject from a different perspective to form a real opinion.

"This person says he doesn't want to roleplay with women. Surely they're just a sexist pig."

Then you're dating a woman or a man, or you're a woman or a man. For someone hell bent on saying it doesn't make a difference, it suddenly makes a difference in my argument.

Hypocrisy at it's finest!

Could've just ignored it and took my argument for what it is, but here we are. Guess this makes me a sexist.

<Snipped quote by Altered Tundra>

In other words "I'm not saying it's okay to discriminate, I'm just saying it's okay to discriminate".

At the risk of being the one who sounds like a broken record "being uncomfortable" with RPing with a certain gender is NOT an excuse. "Being uncomfortable" is a reason people give that sounds better than the real reason they don't want a certain gender partner. I think my favourite part about this conversation so far is the steadfast inability of people to volunteer a real reason.

You're uncomfortable because...why? Because you're a dude and you don't like the idea of doing sexy RPs with another dude? This is some subtle way of adding #NOHOMO to your list of rules? Or is it because you genuinely don't think a female is capable of playing a male character (or vice versa)? That's not an excuse either, because now you're making assumptions about my abilities without even knowing me.

Would it be okay to add these to my preferences:

-No black or brown people, I'm only "comfortable" writing with white people. (Read: I'm racist and if you Skype call me my Nazi flag will be on the wall behind me.)
-No fags/lesbos. (Read: Sorry, I can't risk sexy times with characters played by non-straights because I need to know there's a possibility your jollies are getting off on our RP.)
- No Muslims or Jews. (Read: Once again, I'm racist and also a bigot.)
- No cripples or spazoid autistics. (Read: I'm an ableist fuck who can't handle the thought of my RP partner being neuro-divergent or blind or in a wheelchair or something.)
- No fatties. (Read: This actually matters somehow because I just hate fat people.)

Did you like all of those? Then why is "Male partners only" or "No dudes" okay?

-No dudes. (Read: Because I'm a dude and I don't want to think that my dick is smaller than yours.) <- This is pretty much what I put in the blank when I see people say "I'm uncomfortable with writing with other men."

((This also brings up an interesting point. Why is it only straight people who do this? I have never met a gay guy on here who was like 'No, I don't want to write with chicks for my MxM plot' or a lesbian who was all 'No, a guy can't write a F for my FxF'. Straight people, get your shit together.))

@Altered Tundra
I think you're being deliberately obtuse here. This argument isn't about whether people are breaking the rules of the forum by listing these restrictions in their Interest Checks. This isn't about whether or not people are physically able to be sexist on the forum. Of course they CAN do that. This argument is about whether or not that's morally acceptable. "Freedom of Speech" does not equal "freedom from consequences". Lol

You sound like one of those people who apologizes for and excuses Nazis who start spouting their hateful bile in crowded parks or street corners. This isn't about "freedom of speech". This isn't a request for the Mods to start banning these assholes. This is hopefully a wake-up call for the people who have been doing it so that they realize that they are inflicting their personal hangups onto others. This is hopefully a moment where people can do some soul-searching that will end up with them being better RPers/writers over all.

"People are uncomfortable with writing with certain genders because _______________________ "

I think Nemaisaire is the only one who gave a somewhat halfway reasonable excuse in that maybe someone who is a chick who has a real life dude partner might not want to RP with other dudes because their real life partner would get jealous, which isn't sexism on the RPers part, just some enabling of sexism in their real life partner. (And they should totally get out of that relationship because WTF!)

Fill in the blank. This is your homework assignment.

Fine, maybe using the term "uncomfortable" was the wrong choice of words, but I will not apologize with everything else this thread has implied about those who seek out writers of the opposite sex/gender. No, I'm not talking about the smutters. I don't need to touch on that since it's pretty obvious why they go for the opposite sex/gender for ERPs. I'm talking about those who are serious writers that just so happen to have an affilation for RPing with said sex/gender. They are the ones who, through no fault of their own, are being blacklisted simply because they made a choice. Much like everyone in this thread, we all make choices.

But honestly, you know what really gets me about the above? You saying my earlier comments make me sound like some racist, homophobic, Nazi-sympathizer.

Truth be told, I am not one of those people who exclusively stick to one gender. I don't give two flying shits if you are male, female, or whatever other gender is out there in the known world. Fact of the matter is that, if you aren't a dick and we can click, then the odds of me writing with you are high. Now that being said, a majority of my current partners are female. And I am male(as in my birth sex and gender identity). Does that automatically make me the bad guy here, then? Am I in the wrong for having female partners? No, I am not. And it's the same for anyone who has voiced any opinions in this thread either way. None of you are wrong. Everything you have said and will say in the future about this topic is worth being heard. Disagree or not, that is your right, but more importantly, you choose to state those opinions.

Whcih brings me back to what I originally said that seemed to be taken the wrong way.

These people who don't seek romantic/sexual relationships through the art of online seduction that just so happen to prefer the opposite sex for whatever reasons that they could disclose to the public(should they choose to) is, at the end of the day, their choice.

Also, you say that, and I quote: "This is hopefully a moment where people can do some soul-searching that will end up with them being better RPers/writers over all."

That to me sounds a bit harsh. You're pretty much saying that people who exclusively RP with the opposing gender can't find good partners and that they just have to rp with the same gender to be in the clear of getting quality RP material. That's making an assumption without knowing them either.

and that's all I wanted to say. Respond or don't, ball's in your court.