[OOC] Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

[Jb]

@Necroes All very true! That's why I'm not bothering to demand things be changed, but I will say that it depends on what books you read really. True, there are many that do make them out to be nigh invulnerable, but there are others that similarly show them to just be massive humans in armour - all one needs to do is take a look at the organ list to see that 'taking a lot compared to a human' is an understatement.

While I also don't prescribe to them being indestructible, I do think - perhaps due to your penchant for not going by the established lore - that you actually underplay them.

Let's see...

Two hearts, a fused rib cage and general rapid bone growth, overactive red blood cells that heal in seconds (which means that Xeph's inner and outer tissue would have healed almost as soon as he was dragged off of the spike), a 'recharge' node, a poison and toxin filtration system, acid spitting, and then the power armour on top.

Again, I've no problem with Xeph being wounded, surgery or anything, I just think downplaying the abilities of being that are more like gods to your average human is just as bad as ignoring it completely and saying they're just big guardsmen...or armoured Ogryns.

[Klomster]

It could be the potentia coil has suffered damage to its power generation or its fastening to the cyber mantle, therefore draining the techmarine of his much needed energy to recover properly.
Since normally the augments would be powered by the potentia coil, if it is damaged it could be that the implants are draining energy from his usual metabolic system as a failsafe to keep him from dying. For example if his respiratory system is bionic and it looses power from the coil he wouldn't be able to breathe unless there was a failsafe.
A battery is probably the standard system, but that battery might have run out so it is now tapping into other systems to work.

I am just considering reasons why the mechanicum implants might be acting up.
Also, being what he is, Zuriel will be able to fix a lot of that. Not because he is a mech wright, but because he has been given vast knowledge of technology from the Liber mechanica.

As the character sheet doesn't specify which other bionics he has apart from the standard mechanicum implants (Cyber mantle, potentia coil, electoo inductors, cranial circuitry, voice modulator and respiratory filter, electro-graft)

I cannot say anything for sure since that information is held only by Wraithblade6 at the moment.

(Also i'm a bit sad, i forgot 1,5 implants, otherwise i would know them all by heart :P )

[BCTheEntity]

My theory, as stated, is that Lucius believes there's no good reason Azazel should be anywhere near Xeph's skull with a circular saw. Every other implanted construct is, he hopes, at least somewhat justifiable, if questionable, but for what purpose would an unknown and apparently psychotic Apothecary want to get into another Space Marine's brain, considering the large quantity of metal that was just implanted inside him? In the paranoid mind of Mister Unwilling Thrall To Chaos, nothing good, and I hope that wouldn't be too meta-gamey.

Of course, the reason he wouldn't necessarily interfere prior to that point is because, whilst Space Marines are explicitly highly superhuman, they do also have vital organs, and if it happens that the organ designed to stop them bleeding out is horribly damaged, whilst they're bleeding out, then immediate surgery probably would be necessary to keep them going, and never mind the source of it. On the other hand, with no gaping wounds in his skull to date, chances are his brain's probably alright. There would be the matter of a massive Ork KOing him, but the denser skull would probably have taken most of the force from that, and as Jb stated, hairline fractures would probably heal over quickly enough.

Anyway, I'll get a post incoming soon enough.

[Necroes]

@BCTheEntity Something to keep in mind is that all the various implants and additional organs added to a space marine aren't natural. As marines can actively control most of them, that means they have to be artificially attached to the brain. In addition to the various tech-marine implants, there are a Ton of injuries that a marine could receive that would require open access to the brain to fix. There would be various machines and what not that could, in theory, bypass the need to look at the marine's brain the old fashioned way, but I doubt a scouting vessel would just have that kind of thing on hand.

[BCTheEntity]

@Necroes I'd expect that most are actually connected to the Marine's nerves, which in turn link up to certain portions of their brain. Plenty probably have a brain connection, if their effects are more passive than anything else, but I wouldn't expect most to need outright brain surgery even if seriously mangled. Just because you lose an arm, doesn't mean you can't control an artificial one by any means other than directly altering your brain structure to sync up with it.

[Klomster]

Also in Xephs character description, it does mention his implants are attached to the spinal column for maximum control. (Or just that it's the best place.)

EDIT:
I'm checking the organs.
The Catalapsean node (sleep control) is situated at the back of the brain. And if it is damaged it would require opening of the cranium. (It's also pea-size, teeny.)

The Omophagea is four nerve bundles that go from the brain, through the spine into the stomach. (It's the organ that makes marines learn by eating.)

Occulobe sits at the base of the brain. (Super vision.)

Sus-an membrane. It's the medical induced coma organ. Situated on top of the brain. Seeing Xephs problems it makes sense his sus-an membrane is damaged, since if he was mortally wounded it would try to induce a medical coma to halt the dying of the marine.
If this organ is damaged, this would not happen. Seeing Xephs dizziness and half awakehood, it seems the Sus-an membrane is trying to activate but unable.
(It puts the marine in suspended animation, can be done willingly or if trauma happens.)

It seems the apothecary might have to do brain surgery after all. And the sus-an membrane is something most space marines are trained to use willingly. So its functions and importance would be widely known to the other marines present.

EDIT: LOL, girl marines.

[Necroes]

@BCTheEntity Sooo, out of curiosity... why did you assume the at least two armored marines helping our dear apothecary would let you just walk away with the patient?

Putting aside any medical issues, Xepherial still has cronies with him, and they're armed and armored. One naked marine wouldn't be able to just walk past something like that. If they wanted to restrain you, all they'd have to do is hold you off long enough for him to cut through skull. Given it's a future saw made to cut through a space marine's skull, it wouldn't take extremely long to do that. Once that happened, the surgery would Have to continue, because even a space marine can't walk around with their brain on open display.

[Wraithblade6]

Again, I've no problem with Xeph being wounded, surgery or anything, I just think downplaying the abilities of being that are more like gods to your average human is just as bad as ignoring it completely and saying they're just big guardsmen...or armoured Ogryns.

@Jbcool

I'll go with somewhere in between those two. Gods, or armored Ogryn.

I cannot say anything for sure since that information is held only by Wraithblade6 at the moment.

@Klomster

Erm, yes. Well, I feel like saying, "Damnit Jim! I'm a techmarine! Not an apothecary!" Anyway, I'm quite impressed on the spacemarine biology you guys have dug up since my post. That being said, suffice it to say important stuff got damaged. Could be the coagulation system, could be the second heart, the Sus-an membrane.... Only Azazel knows. The fact Xeph got up and went on after nearly having his midsection severed was a superhuman feat, but then he takes an explosive round in the gut through the hole, not to mention being shot up in general, and Urgugg's head-wrap certainly didn't help matters. I figure its enough damage to justify going into a coma at least if not at risk of dying pressingly.

@Klomster Zuriel is welcome to help or attempt to do so, if you wish. I'm not sure what mental state Xeph will be in, just to warn you.

@BCTheEntity Sooo, out of curiosity... why did you assume the at least two armored marines helping our dear apothecary would let you just walk away with the patient?

@Necroes

I was also wondering this. @BCTheEntity, did you discuss it beforehand with @agentmanatee? Maybe the Red marines should get a chance to react.

[Necroes]

Ogryns just Are stronger and tougher than marines. That's why they carry heavier guns, bigger melee weapons, and wear armor that offers similar levels of protection against attacks despite being literally just massive slabs of metal. Space marines are better not because they are more physically powerful, but because they're augmented to be more versatile and better soldiers. It'd be like comparing a human soldier to a gorilla. In a straight-up fist fight, the gorilla is probably going to win... but a soldier wouldn't be dumb enough to let those be the terms he engages a gorilla under, and I definitely wouldn't want a pack of gorillas going in to do the kind of missions I'd give to soldiers.
Physically, the only thing more impressive about a marine than an ogryn is their ability to survive in the long run. That's it.

[Klomster]

Physically, the only thing more impressive about a marine than an ogryn is their ability to survive in the long run. That's it.

@Necroes

Speed and stamina i'd say go to the marines.
Vision as well, muscle density, the ability to learn by eating. Depending on how you see it intelligence is a physical trait. The reaction time sure as heck is a physical trait.

I'd say Ogryns are only more impressive in raw strength. Sure ogryns can take a beating and are sturdy. But marines are more impressive in every other physical way.

[Necroes]

@Klomster Actually, marines really aren't all that fast, in terms of reaction time. They've got higher quality sensory input than the average human, but nothing they get actually increases the speed at which they process that information. The only thing is training and conditioning, and that only gets you so far before you hit the physical limitations of relying on a biological sensory system, which humans are already pretty damn close to to begin with.

Ironically, given the fluff behind ogryns, they may actually have a better reaction time than marines. Ogryn brains never really 'devolved,' they just mutated to better meet different needs. They seem less intelligent because their brains are more geared towards survival than social pleasantries and basic skills like mathematics and grammar. However, that's actually in their favor, as it means their brains have adapted to filter out all the 'white noise' and focus only on what matters; survival, and by extension, processing information that's important to continuing it.

They also win in muscle density. They average 2.5 to 3 meters tall (that's 8'2" to nearly 10' for my fellow imperialst scum), without any kind of power suit. See, the weird thing about Ogryns is that, on a homeworld with nearly double earth's gravity, they got Bigger. Things don't get bigger when there's more gravity, they get more compact. That's why whales don't work well outside of the water, they need the buoyancy to keep their bodies from being crushed under their own weight.

Ogryns, on the other hand, were put somewhere they should have gotten smaller, and actually got even bigger. That means the need for sheer brute strength was so great, that somehow natural selection favored the largest, despite that extra bulk working against them. This next part is pretty math heavy, so I'm going to use a hider.

Math stuff for anyone who cares.

So when a given body increases in size proportionately by doubling its height, its mass will increases by a factor of about eight, just by a purely mathematical sense. Given the size of the average Ogryn, assuming their weight in a standard Earth environment increased by Only that factor of eight, then halving their height of upwards of 10' would mean we're basing them on the average weight of a 5' man. So, the 'ideal' average weight for a middle aged man of 5' height is right around 110 lbs. That means the matching ogryn would weigh 880 lbs on Earth. Now, on their home planet, they would weigh twice that. Meaning, that all of their bulk has to be able to not just barely, but effectively and regularly support 1,960 lbs.

Meaning, an ogryns muscles have to be dense enough to heft around 2 tons of weight at all times, naked. As the average space marine only has to pack around 600 pounds naked, and both are required to perform under battlefield conditions, the Ogryn at only a couple feet taller would Have to have over double the muscle density of the average space marine.

[Jb]

@Klomster Actually, marines really aren't all that fast, in terms of reaction time. They've got higher quality sensory input than the average human, but nothing they get actually increases the speed at which they process that information. The only thing is training and conditioning, and that only gets you so far before you hit the physical limitations of relying on a biological sensory system, which humans are already pretty damn close to to begin with.

@Necroes

So you still see Marines as just large humans in armoured suits then?

Your first part clashes with your second part, in my opinion, as it is their very training and conditioning (a good deal of it hypno-suggestive) that serves as the very thing which - partnered with constant training for warfare and their power armours sensors - makes them so fast when compared to humans; the whole point of the Black Carapace and the multiple sockets all over them.

Combined with the fibre bundles, and even without the armour, Astartes are just purpose-built weapons of war with their training regimes and conditioning doing mentally much the same as you've suggested with the Ogryns, the only difference being that a Marine can judge the best means and alternate routes to survival.

If we accept what you say, then why aren't Orks shown as being faster than Marines? They're much like green Ogryns, especially the larger ones.

[Necroes]

Oh, orks aren't nearly as big as ogryns. The average boy pales by comparison, and even nobs would be hard pressed to keep up. You'd need a full-fledged war boss to keep them on the same level, physically.

No, orks are built differently. The entire species was literally designed to be a living weapon. Not individually, but as a whole. That includes DNA encoded combat training, an almost stupidly high capacity for regeneration and healing, and the ability to produce an armed and armored army out of basically anything, and all within a frighteningly short time. That the entire species does this as part of its natural reproductive cycle is what makes orks a threat.

And, no, marines are not just 'big humans.' They're definitely well within the realm of 'super human.' The problem is that humans suck to begin with, and being a better version of something that's not very good to begin with means you're probably not all that great. The problem is that there's SO much conflicting fluff about marines, and what they can do and what they're supposedly capable of, it's almost impossible to get an accurate reading of what the average one really should be.

I mean, discounting anyone with a name grimdark enough to earn him plot armor, marines die by the hundreds on the battlefield on a regular basis. The blood angels chapter, one of the original founding chapters, was nearly brought to extinction in a battle against orks. What does that mean? Well, given that 90% of ork fighting style is 'throw wave after wave of your own men at them' (yes, they did it before Zapp Brannigan) that means that an entire chapter, known as one of if not the best at engaging in melee combat... were regularly defeated in melee combat by ork boys. The only reason the blood angels are still around is because their successor chapters had their arms twisted into coughing up enough troops to maintain the ranks.

[Wraithblade6]

I will write wed.

[Klomster]

Well, when you are outnumbered by monsters whom are born as trained melee fighters and they come at you in groups, it's hard to constantly win.
Also, did it mention how many orks and marines it was in that story?

Also, regular humans can do rather impressive things. You sort of contradict yourself when you say "The only thing is training and conditioning, and that only gets you so far before you hit the physical limitations of relying on a biological sensory system, which humans are already pretty damn close to to begin with"
But then you say.
"The problem is that humans suck to begin with, and being a better version of something that's not very good to begin with means you're probably not all that great."

Sooo, are humans good or not?

Also, the blood angels aren't notorious for their self preservation. Albeit not as bad as the crimson fists, but what can one expect when one's primary battlefield tactic is 'last stand!!!'.

[BCTheEntity]

@Necroes@Wraithblade6 I honestly thought they were just drones. Completely skipped my mind that he had actual Space Marines with him to help out... and, uh, that scuppers the whole post, doesn't it? So unless @agentmanatee is alright with what I've provided, I do in fact need to make an edit. Your call, though, manatee.

Worth noting about Space Marines is that, aside from the logistics behind preventing galaxy-wide heretical events, being limited to just 1000 members at a time is a really massive limitation even for a pack of superhumans when the armies of your foes regularly number in the tens or even hundreds of thousands, if not more. Tyranids aren't dangerous because they pack a bunch of massively tough heavy hitters (excepting the non-canon Hive Fleet Nidhoggr); they're dangerous because they can send literally millions of creatures with no survival instinct of their own to swarm everything, each with varying and specialised purposes. (In theory anyway. Try telling that to crunch.) Orks are similar, but at least understand that if they die, it means no more fighting, which is no fun after all, and they're also more prone to using a larger number of bulky beasts and oversized mechanised constructs.

[Sophrus]

Guess that means i would have to modify my post too. or totally scrap it.

[agentmanatee]

@BCTheEntity I would like to see it edited as that quite confused me as they are are indeed 2 full fledged marines haha didn't speak up before as others already had bit yea I think an edit is in order. I will edit my previous post accordingly and then write another post once you've edited yours

[BCTheEntity]

@agentmanatee Alright, my bad. Here's me going on about excessive action, and then completely forget very important individuals... so expect an edit shortly.

EDIT: ...actually, I need to discuss the sequence of events with you and @Sophrus. If you mind my making a PM between us?

[Necroes]

@Klomster Humans have good reaction time to begin with. Once something, say, touches us, it takes fractions of a millisecond for the nerve endings in the body to send that information to the brain. From there, the average person can react on instinct within the next second, depending on the input. Say someone grabbed a hot pan from an oven. The average person could react quickly enough to let go of that pan before it caused anything more than probably some blistering. Given it's a race against energy transfer, that's pretty damn quick.

However, literally anything that has a nervous system can do that. Yes, the amount of time it takes the average person to act on information they perceive through their senses is a very small amount of time... But so can anything. All being faster than a human at reaction time means is you're shaving off, in the most extreme cases, a second to two.

A space marine can draw his weapon faster than basically any human alive. However, given that things like lasers exist in the 41st millennium, that doesn't mean much. Yes, space marines react faster than humans. Nine times in ten, though, and especially in a sci-fi setting, the dangers they're reacting to are so fast to begin with, that the damage has already been done before the sensory organs they rely on even have time to translate the incoming data into a form the brain can read it in. In other words, they literally wouldn't know about it until it has already hit them.

However, in 40k, there are things that can react even faster. Eldar can dodge lasgun fire. Necrons can phase to another dimension as they're being shot. Daemons can deflect bullets. How? Space magic!... But, in a world where that's a thing, space marines are far from the end-all be-all that the books like to make them out to be.