The 'Explain The Appeal Of......' Thread

[mickilennial]

@Fabricant451 Examples please, I really tried to like him. But really one of the best? Do I have to provide his bars? Like I want to at least find something that I like other than "I." I'm not closed minded, that's just what I got from his 2nd album. Is his first or third album better at this storytelling you speak of?

@SleepingSilence

Yes. His third album [To Pimp a Butterfly] is not only one of the most important hip hop records of the last twenty years, it is also so mindfully produced and composed. I'm almost tempted to revoke your hip hop card here; anybody worth their salt within the genre would tear apart this idea. What're you going to say next? Danny Brown is wack? Please. Listen to the man's words and rhymes, really listen, don't just hear it.

I don’t even worship at the altar of Kendrick Lamar but I can recognize he is a technically proficient MC, a prolific storyteller, and great rapper overall.

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[Fabricant451]

@Fabricant451 Examples please, I really tried to like him. But really one of the best? Do I have to provide his bars? Like I want to at least find something that I like other than "I." I'm not closed minded, that's just what I got from his 2nd album. Is his first or third album better at this storytelling you speak of?

@SleepingSilence

Shit I've been through prolly offend you
This is Paula’s oldest son
I know murder, conviction
Burners, boosters, burglars, ballers, dead, redemption
Scholars, fathers dead with kids
And I wish I was fed forgiveness
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, soldier’s DNA
Born inside the beast

You could just look at the alliteration going on with Burners, booster, etc, but even beyond that the list of ten things (common sights from where Kendrick is from, common thing) brings up potential biblical allusions which is fitting given how the album is stepped in Deuteronomy.

Promises are broken and more resentment come alive
Race barriers make inferior of you and I
See, in a perfect world, I'll choose faith over riches
I'll choose work over bitches, I'll make schools out of prison
I'll take all the religions and put 'em all in one service
Just to tell 'em we ain't shit, but He's been perfect, world

There's a lot going on in just this alone and it's not just a statement on the choices he's made. I didn't include it, but it ties back to his previous album and the line abour race barriers goes into a desire to engage in discussions about race.

Wake up in the mornin'
Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy, take a shit, then roll some weed up
Go hit you a lick, go fuck on a bitch
Don't go to work today, cop you a fit
Or maybe some kicks and make you—

Wake up in the mornin'
Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy— hol' up!
Wake up in the mornin'
Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy, take a shit, then roll some weed up
Go hit you a lick, go fuck on a bitch, don't go to work today
Cop you a fit or maybe some kicks and make it work today
Hang with your homies, stunt on your baby mama
Sip some lean, go get a pistol, shoot out the window
Bet your favorite team, play you some Madden
Go to the club or your mama house
Whatever you doin', just make it count

This loses a lot in the transition but the short version is that this verse - and the song it comes from - is satirical and is about the the lifestyle of people like him, the rap stars of the world. The same type of people that get ragged on for making songs about bitches, drugs, and money.

Also these are all from the same album. I'd be here all night if I started pulling more from his discography.

[SleepingSilence]

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

I picked my songs for a reason. You're doing exactly what a lot of people do and making incorrect assumptions. You're taking the lyrics at face value as they come and the reason I picked a song like A Milli is precisely because it reads as a song glorifying the lifestyle but is more a personal anthem and statement of intent (and also because of the beat, which is why I mentioned it.) As for the Yeezy verse, you got it wrong. The line is "You see it's leaders and it's followers/But I'd rather be a dick than a swallower" which is literally Kanye explaining a lot of his arrogance. It boils down to "I would rather say what's on my mind and be considered an asshole than hold my tongue and be a liar or not say anything."

The thing about good rap is that it has metaphors and double meanings like that. That's not a lyrical failure of Kanye. It's a failure of comprehension on the listener. A song using the word nigger isn't a knock against a song. That word is so steeped in the genre and in the culture it sprung from that it's often a word of rally. Having a problem with that word in rap music has less to do with disliking the music but that'll open up a racial can of worms and let's not.

@Fabricant451

I'm not saying that the rap can't be more subversive, I'm just saying it's still doing a lot of the same stuff. Like it's fine to look deeper into lines, but you CAN make your music deep and not compare yourself to getting your dick sucked and the like...I'm not calling it brainless per say, but it is vulgar. Which is what he wanted to avoid.

And yes Kayne has said so many dumb things off and on the track, I can't take him seriously. In Black Skinhead for instance, which is his black pride anthem and he forces a line about how much sex he is getting in there...I just feel like there we're better choices. I don't mean to come off as they have nothing of value, but for something wanting to get into the genre for differences. Mainstream artists are NOT where to start.

[SleepingSilence]

@Fabricant451

Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy— hol' up!
Wake up in the mornin'
Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy, take a shit, then roll some weed up

Rhymes up with up with up with up. xP (and the verses, is telling a story I suppose but good rapping?)

Wake up in the mornin'
Thinkin' 'bout money, kick your feet up
Watch you a comedy, take a shit, then roll some weed up
Go hit you a lick, go fuck on a bitch
Don't go to work today, cop you a fit
Or maybe some kicks and make you—

Like really...that's highest quality? I mean yes the song is satirical, so you can say the overall MESSAGE is clever, and something you can maybe appreciate but the writing itself? The vocabulary/comprehension is not exactly college level, you follow?

Promises are broken and more resentment come alive
Race barriers make inferior of you and I
See, in a perfect world, I'll choose faith over riches
I'll choose work over bitches, I'll make schools out of prison
I'll take all the religions and put 'em all in one service
Just to tell 'em we ain't shit, but He's been perfect, world

Probably the best one I see at the moment. And yeah maybe some of his songs are emotionally strong and can convey those in a strong way. I've heard a song where he gets drunk and basically falls into a deep hole of depression and if you like that, I'm sure that's fine. But rap is essentially writing for a living. Like writing itself, the prose and words matter greatly. (And out of context it makes me roll my eyes a bit.) But, still curses twice in 6 lines and aside from resentment, the vocabulary is not particularly complicated.

[Fabricant451]

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

And yes Kayne has said so many dumb things off and on the track, I can't take him seriously. In Black Skinhead for instance, which is his black pride anthem and he forces a line about how much sex he is getting in there...I just feel like there we're better choices. I don't mean to come off as they have nothing of value, but for something wanting to get into the genre for differences. Mainstream artists are NOT where to start.

@SleepingSilence

Are you referring, perhaps, to "300 bitches, where the Trojans?" Again, it's fine to take it literally but considering it's prefaced by "I keep it 300 like the Romans" then the Trojan line has, again, dual meaning. It's fairly basic stuff at this point - especially for Kanye.

Mainstream artists are the perfect place to start if someone is trying to get into the genre. Not every mainstream artist is worthwhile but someone will get a better scope of what makes a great rap album if they listen to To Pimp A Butterfly or The College Dropout than they would by starting with some indie rapper whose only ability is their speed or something. If you wanted someone to get into, say, metal, would you start them off with some black metal stuff or would you go for more 'mainstream' shit like I dunno....Metallica or something? It's the same thing here.

[mickilennial]

[mickilennial]

If you wanted someone to get into, say, metal, would you start them off with some black metal stuff or would you go for more 'mainstream' shit like I dunno....Metallica or something? It's the same thing here.

@Fabricant451

I’d be more partial to tailoring recommendations to an individual’s taste if they had the earnest intention to learn, actually. If they aren’t interested in melodic metal, I wouldn’t be giving them albums by Iron Maiden or Judas Priest to enjoy as I would be looking for what they’ve heard and what fancies them best. That said, I do see the point in showing a person how valuable contemporary sides of the genre can be.

[SleepingSilence]

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>
Yes. His third album [To Pimp a Butterfly] is not only one of the most important hip hop records of the last twenty years, it is also so mindfully produced and composed. I'm almost tempted to revoke your hip hop card here; anybody worth their salt within the genre would tear apart this idea. What're you going to say next? Danny Brown is wack? Please. Listen to the man's words and rhymes, really listen, don't just hear it.

I don’t even worship at the altar of Kendrick Lamar but I can recognize he is a technically proficient MC, a prolific storyteller, and great rapper overall.

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@Inkarnate

Oh the blacker berry song is I think where I stopped the album the first time. ^-^'

There's a lot of problems with that song...I'm CLEARLY not the intended audience for that one...

I'm African-American, I'm African
I'm black as the heart of a fuckin' Aryan
I'm black as the name of Tyrone and Darius
Excuse my French but fuck you — no, fuck y'all

I think he may say BLACK more then the rest of the words combined...(sarcasm)

But, I will try to listen to the other ones when it's not 2 am and I'm too tired to listen to more. (Only danny brown song I've fully listened to is Rustie - Attak ft Danny and his last two lines are I aint gotta say shit tell your bitch to suck my dick. Like the song and the flow was fine, but I hope not the best example of his talents. I will eventually give him a shot on my own time. xP)

EDIT: (Will eventually happen.)

[Fabricant451]

@Fabricant451

Like really...that's highest quality? I mean yes the song is satirical, so you can say the overall MESSAGE is clever, and something you can maybe appreciate but the writing itself? The vocabulary/comprehension is not exactly college level, you follow?

@SleepingSilence

How is it not college level? Unless the idea of college level is using a thesaurus to sound smarter. He staggers the verse three different times before getting to the actual verse, furthering the overall point of the song and how repetitious the style he's satirizing is. That's parallelism. Which is a technique plenty of high schoolers don't use let alone college kids. Just because lyrics have simple words doesn't mean the lyrics themselves are simple.

[Fabricant451]

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>
I’d be more partial to tailoring recommendations to an individual’s taste if they had the earnest intention to learn, actually. If they aren’t interested in melodic metal, I wouldn’t be giving them albums by Iron Maiden or Judas Priest to enjoy as I would be looking for what they’ve heard and what fancies them best. That said, I do see the point in showing a person how valuable contemporary sides of the genre can be.

@Inkarnate

That's fair. Also I know fuckall about metal and Metallica seemed like an easy pick.

[SleepingSilence]

@Fabricant451 If you wanted someone to get into, say, metal, would you start them off with some black metal stuff or would you go for more 'mainstream' shit like I dunno....Metallica or something? It's the same thing here.

Absolutely not. So maybe we have different outlooks on music. But I'd go with non-harsh vocals and actual good metal. *jab at overrated band check* A shit load of stuff I could provide. That would make rock fans love it fine. And not heavy stuff even, by introducing them to wackier mixes of the metal genre. And it would absolutely not be mainstream. When I say metal is the most varied genre, that is not a joke or ignorance.

[mickilennial]

He staggers the verse three different times before getting to the actual verse, furthering the overall point of the song and how repetitious the style he's satirizing is. That's parallelism. Which is a technique plenty of high schoolers don't use let alone college kids. Just because lyrics have simple words doesn't mean the lyrics themselves are simple.

@Fabricant451

Yeah, this. Actually break down the techniques he’s using, his subtext, the central point of the song, and the phrasing and you will see that Kendrick isn’t actually lacking technical ability [or objectively bad within his medium].

[SleepingSilence]

@Fabricant451 There's really only so much satire can give you, if you rhyme something 4 times with themselves in many of your songs...you eventually become what you satirize. Like real novels or stories, most prose does come from intelligence...Like Kendrick Lamar made a song called "Pussy." Sure it's a joke song, but really is it that clever if literally everyone knows how lazy mainstream rap can be?

All of those words are grade school level material. You can write strong with simple words, but denying that it isn't simple. I feel like I have to show you more lines from other artists...

"Conscious of anacondas and monsters inside my closet
My concentrations methodic a constant state of a conflict
Accommodate ‘em with coffins
It's complicating my conscience
Haunted on occasion and congregating with convents
Which is is witches? Wicked Wiccans I've weakened
On weekends we light the wick on the spliff
And split it with demons
I'm fiending the evening's evil
These people whisper their secrets
I seek written upheavals to burn churches and steeples, yea"

It's not even overly complex. (also nowhere near the best of him.) But it's clearly better written for a comprehension level. Like I saw a couple verses from Kendrik that at least had less simple words then what you provided which is what I asked for. You can be clever with words and write words the average 9 year old couldn't spell right. It's silly to think, it's somehow flawless because of the messages displayed. If parts aren't particularly clever or don't rhyme or are overly vulgar which is usually a sign of immaturity.

[mickilennial]

You really make it clear that hip hop is not your pedigree. Some token mentions of The Gift of Gab and Aesop Rock do not really absolve that fact.

[SleepingSilence]

@Inkarnate I mean, sure maybe his flow is more well crafted then I give him credit for and maybe people really like his production for that particular sound, like Kayne. I just still think lyrics do matter...whether you have an impressive flow or not, the words need to be worthy to listen to in the first place. I'm not saying there isn't something I'm missing, I suppose I clearly am...I just...I haven't been able to enjoy most of his music. Which satire or not, doesn't connect with me a whole lot. :/

[SleepingSilence]

@Inkarnate I showed twelve rap songs that I like. All non-mainstream artists. It's not like I haven't listened to a shit ton of it, believe me I have. XP I know plenty about it...

[Fabricant451]

@Inkarnate I showed twelve rap songs that I like. All non-mainstream artists. It's not like I haven't listened to a shit ton of it, believe me I have. XP

@SleepingSilence

Oh my god are you a hip hop hipster? What is your problem with mainstream artists?

[mickilennial]

@Inkarnate I showed twelve rap songs that I like. All non-mainstream artists. It's not like I haven't listened to a shit ton of it, believe me I have. XP

@SleepingSilence

Oh, I’m sure you’ve heard a few albums you enjoy. But as with the culture of hip hop, you need to comprehend it beyond a surface understanding—which so far I have not seen from your responses. I don’t say this as an inflammatory remark, but an observation based on the facts in front of me. You get stuck on shallow points in songs [particularly within Lamar’s body of work, which you have not actually explored as you have admitted], and make criticisms that don’t really have any weight or understanding of the pieces presented.

Hider

Also, going back to the topic of the contemporary scene there is no reason a new listener should avoid the “mainstream” as plenty of prolific rappers have created songs that have become part of the hip hop zeitgeist [and are actually important, relevant, and influential] such as Jay Z, Tupac, Outkast, Kurtis Blow, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, Public Enemy, and many many others. It would be grossly unwise to ignore them to satisfy some independent perspective that any rapper within the avant-garde, abstract, or experimental sides of the genre would agree is important for any newfound listener.

The most important thing to recognize from and about hip hop, the music of the street, is the message. There are many MC’s who range in technicality, flow, phrasing, wordplay, and much more; and just because an experimental rapper uses longer words does not make him a better rapper than one who uses a simple yet succinct style.

[Fabricant451]

@Fabricant451
All of those words are grade school level material. You can write strong with simple words, but denying that it isn't simple. I feel like I have to show you more lines from other artists...

@SleepingSilence

I can't get into the whole of your post right now because I need some sleep before work in a few hours but I'm just gonna say this. One of the greatest poems ever written is simple words. What poem? Doesn't matter but it's a Frost poem. Just because something uses larger words doesn't make it inherently better. We stop trying to use big words on papers right around the first time the teacher calls us out in it. You can be clever with words that aren't complex. I might argue that it's more impressive to pen something thought provoking with simple phrases than it is to pen something obvious but with ten point words. That's a Scrabble reference. Also I've never played Scrabble but ten points seems like a lot.

If all you take from lyrics is how complicated the words are, you're using superficial methods.

[SleepingSilence]

@Inkarnate I just feel we appreciate different things about the music...or look for different things in the music. I won't necessary say your wrong and I certainly don't think what I think is good, is somehow bad or lower quality. I've taken music classes and play instruments...(hell I even actually CAN rap.) I know more than the average joe...and yeah...professionals watch and listen to other professionals to get better at it. It's more than a few albums and songs. xP I've listen to the old, the new, the stuff barely considered rap. Instruments on their own, for free styling. Etc etc.

And no, I admitted for Danny brown. I've listen to a whole album of Kendrick...(took me several tries is all.) And I wasn't being sarcastic or looking for a fight. I like some mainstream artists and even if I don't like the whole of something, I'd always be better if I could find some good parts...I just need something to sink my teeth into. I just haven't found that from the artist yet. I listen to all genres of music though, and I'll admit his on a far back burner of music I want to listen to.

Dammit, I like rap music. I know rap fans are about as tolerant of dislike of their favorite artists as metal is but. I didn't mean to start a riot. I blame it being so late at night. XD