Russia in Crimea

[Pepperm1nts]

It has, I'm not denying that. And to be honest, the US' past actions are probably why Putin felt like he could pull this off. But that's kind of irrelevant. It doesn't really change that what Russia has done in Crimea is wrong, and pretty much illegal.

The US stance on this is ridiculously hypocritical, absolutely. But such is the game of politics, I suppose.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Jannah said
It's not like the US hasn't ever done anything illegal...

Not nearly as blatantly. We may occupy other nations on the pretense they may have nuclear weapons and maybe move economic interests into them. But we're not defending any referendums for anyone to become a part of the US. And if Iraq and Afghanistan has shown their elections haven't really turned out with a functionally pro-American government as was in Ukraine (to Russia).

[Jannah]

Pepperm1nts said The US stance on this is ridiculously hypocritical, absolutely. But such is the game of politics, I suppose.

Well the US is not exactly known for its consistency in these sorts of things.

Dinh AaronMk said Not nearly as blatantly. We may occupy other nations on the pretense they may have nuclear weapons and maybe move economic interests into them. But we're not defending any referendums for anyone to become a part of the US. And if Iraq and Afghanistan has shown their elections haven't really turned out with a functionally pro-American government as was in Ukraine (to Russia).

I am yet to see anything suggesting the referendum was illegal. Besides, Ukrainian Neo-Nazis(Svoboda is openly fascist) overthrowing the government wasn't exactly "legal" either yet the west let it fly simply because they don't like Russia. This whole situation reeks of hypocrisy.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Jannah said
I am yet to see anything suggesting the referendum was illegal. Besides, Ukrainian Neo-Nazis(Svoboda is openly fascist) overthrowing the government wasn't exactly "legal" either yet the west let it fly simply because they don't like Russia. This whole situation reeks of hypocrisy.

By Ukrainian Law the referendum to leave the nation and join Russia is an act of defiance against its constitution per Article 2. The Crimea is as lawful a part of Ukraine as such as Maine is to the US. The community would act the same if there was a move to transfer Maine to England or Canada without prior dealing or approval from Washington and between London or Ottawa. And even the Venice Commission - which advises and assists in matters on constitutional law between European bodies - recognizes it as illegal against the Ukrainian constitution.

There is also the point that the Russian military was on the ground in Crimea to enforce a certain De Facto control over Crimea during which the parliament prepared for the quickly assembled referendum, and that by their presence the action wasn't as free of influence as other acts of democratic separatism or battle-won separatism.

As well, only the president was kicked out and replaced. The parliament in Kiev is still the same as it was when it started. The Verkhovna Rada is still largely dominated by the Party of Regions and the mild-mannered Batkicschyna party. Svoboda is still a rather small bloc.

[Pepperm1nts]

That's without even going into how improbable the results of the referendum were.

[The Nexerus]

Jannah said
It's not like the US hasn't ever done anything illegal...

Crimea doesn't have anything to do with the United States.

The situation in Crimea is a severe and obvious infringement of international law—the United States isn't making a statement because of Cold War era rivalries, it's making a statement because, like any other non-rogue state, it's interested in defending a fellow nation's sovereignty and upholding order. Russia's entry into Crimea was illegal, their continued occupation of the peninsula is illegal, and the referendum in Crimea, regardless of whether or not you personally consider it fair, is also inarguably illegal. The international community should be doing more, not less, to pressure Russia out of the peninsula.

[Dinh AaronMk]

The Nexerus said
Crimea doesn't have anything to do with the United States. Russia's entry into Crimea was illegal, their continued occupation is illegal, and the referendum in Crimea, regardless of whether or not you personally consider it fair, is also inarguably illegal.

Not to mention: last I checked the US more often than not shops for support in the UN before waving its dick around. Or for the most part has been of the result of earlier UN resolutions. With a part of Iraq stemming from the effects of Resolution 1441 and Afghanistan had ISAF as a part, which were UN-approved moves that laid the basic foundation to invade later.

But even in these cases it's not like we have American soldiers standing around outside native military bases as we see to a Referendum to make either nation a full state of the US as is Russia is doing. So yea, the comparisons are pretty lose.

[Omega]

Russia has begun to openly and forcibly seize Crimean military bases, there have been some sources stating shots are fired and claims of at least 2 Ukrainian soldiers dead.

Ukraine has asked the UN to declare Crimea a demilitarized zone,

Russia has declared they are going to turn back all future OSCE inspectors for the rest of the year.

[Pepperm1nts]

Tatar man was found dead with signs of torture, as well.

[Commander]

Putin isn't backing down. This is very interesting to watch unfold. While I can't wait to see what is next, I hope it doesn't escalate into a big war.

[Captain Jordan]

Omega said
Russia has begun to openly and forcibly seize Crimean military bases, there have been some sources stating shots are fired and claims of at least 2 Ukrainian soldiers dead.Ukraine has asked the UN to declare Crimea a demilitarized zone,Russia has declared they are going to turn back all future OSCE inspectors for the rest of the year.

What's your source for the 2 dead Ukrainian soldiers? BBC reports no shooting in the takeovers.

[Pepperm1nts]

It was a shooting in Simferopol. I'd give you a link but I'd rather you look it up yourself and decide which source you want to believe. But a search will yield several results. They all say more or less the same thing. Russian troops stormed a Ukrainian military base and the Ukrainians fired back in self-defense. One killed on both sides (though I have seen Ukrainian casualties listed as two in some places) and several people were wounded. Some Ukrainian soldiers were captured as well, including a Colonel who I believe has since defected to the Russian side.

[Omega]

Captain Jordan said
What's your source for the 2 dead Ukrainian soldiers?

Pepperm1nts said
It was a shooting in Simferopol. I'd give you a link but I'd rather you look it up yourself and decide which source you want to believe. But a search will yield several results. They all say more or less the same thing. Russian troops stormed a Ukrainian military base and the Ukrainians fired back in self-defense. One killed on both sides (though I have seen Ukrainian casualties listed as two in some places) and several people were wounded. Some Ukrainian soldiers were captured as well, including a Colonel who I believe has since defected to the Russian side.

This is largely unsubstaniated yet depending on your source hence my previous statements. Stories vary from 1-2 Ukrainians dead with 1-8 injured, 1-2 Russians dead with 1-3 injured, and highly inconclusive numbers on defectors

For those who may not realize it yet my goal here is to relay information as I find it from various sources. If a source is suspect I may state it here as a claim or not at all depending on severity and if other sources state the same thing. I am avoiding primary US, UK, and Russian sources such a CNN, BBC, or ITAR except for when looking for reasons behind statements rather than the statements themselves.

[Captain Jordan]

Omega said
This is largely unsubstaniated yet depending on your source hence my previous statements. Stories vary from 1-2 Ukrainians dead with 1-8 injured, 1-2 Russians dead with 1-3 injured, and highly inconclusive numbers on defectorsFor those who may not realize it yet my goal here is to relay information as I find it from various sources. If a source is suspect I may state it here as a claim or not at all depending on severity and if other sources state the same thing. I am avoiding primary US, UK, and Russian sources such a CNN, BBC, or ITAR except for when looking for reasons behind statements rather than the statements themselves.

Hence the question....what's the source for that particular statement?

[Omega]

Captain Jordan said
Hence the question....what's the source for that particular statement?

Deutch Welle, USA Today, Washington Post, the Guardian, CBC

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26637296

[Omega]

The Russian Upper House has voted to annex Crimea formally.

Russia has seized various Ukrainian military vessels in Crimea.

Ukraine has now surrendered almost all military positions in Crimea to Russian soldiers.

Russia has placed sanctions on US officials in retaliation to US sanctions.

[Pepperm1nts]

Some footage of the Russian takeover at the Ukrainian Belbek Air Force base can be seen in this news article. It is believed at least one Ukranian soldier was shot during the takeover.

[Kadaeux]

Omega said .Ukraine has asked the UN to declare Crimea a demilitarized zone.

That is just an excercise in idiotic futility.

"And now we call for the vote to declare Crimea a demilitarized zone." - Someone.

"Veto." - Russia + Trollface.

[Joshua15555]

My personal opinion? A few BCTs and respective NATO regiments should be sitting on the Ukrainian/Russian border, along with the 6th Fleet in the Black Sea,

Though at the same time I agree with it, really wouldn't be a good thing at all.

[mdk]

Joshua15555 said
My personal opinion? A few BCTs and respective NATO regiments should be sitting on the Ukrainian/Russian border, along with the 6th Fleet in the Black Sea,Though at the same time I agree with it, really wouldn't be a good thing at all.

something something all the king's horses and all the king's men.

It's cracked and there's nothing we can do about it now.