TZDL2017.. BUT ON RPGUILD!

[JaceBeleren]

@Devil Apologies, but I probably won't be able to do this after all. Too much else going on, but I will keep an eye on this.

[Paradox]

Paradox, reporting in.

[Negatomsk]

I'm in.

[MelonHead]

You're offering real money for a roleplay tournament? The salt levels will be off the damn chain. With that in mind, they say never turn a hobby into a job, so I won't be participating, but best of luck.

I have to ask though, what exactly is your definition of high tier? Reading through one of your template characters they seem to have the capacity to fire scaled up lightning bolts, both faster and presumably hotter than an actual lightning bolt in nature. Such an attack is, to my understanding, basically going to auto-connect on any character slower than the speed of light, which seems to stray out of what is commonly known as 'high tier'.

[Mobius]

You're offering real money for a roleplay tournament? The salt levels will be off the damn chain. With that in mind, they say never turn a hobby into a job, so I won't be participating, but best of luck.

@MelonHead

Not a job it's a tournament and if anything I'd be doing the lionshare of the work. All you have to do is play, but sure.

I have to ask though, what exactly is your definition of high tier? Reading through one of your template characters they seem to have the capacity to fire scaled up lightning bolts, both faster and presumably hotter than an actual lightning bolt in nature. Such an attack is, to my understanding, basically going to auto-connect on any character slower than the speed of light, which seems to stray out of what is commonly known as 'high tier'.

@Melonhead

Electricity is a schedule 3 because there are forces within nature or in some of the other profiles that could manage it, but the conditions necessary to actively counter it is impractical and you'd be right; however, high tier amps up the levels of every ability a character has to a degree in where electricity, even to the magnitude of Mitsu, is not only manageable but may actually be somewhat negligible unless he revved it up to their pace. Mitsu is an incredibly strong character, but there are strategies to protect yourself against projectiles that some of us in TZDL already have

vertex.wikia.com/wiki/Auto-Defense

All things considered: even without crimson lightning, electricity is fast and strong enough to be considered "high tier" but it isn't. Argryia's Serenity Redstar had no problems with Mouse's Mitsu Mazono in their exhibition in 2009 and in their quarterfinal match in TZDL2011. I defeated Mitsu Mazono in an exhibition match in 2013 and my character's attacks aren't close to the speed electricity moves. Electricity, by itself, has some gnarly properties and banning it outright isn't exactly fair and would hurt the actual diversity I went for when I made the scheduling system (which got a lot of powers and meta unbanned or deregulated significantly). Roleplaying offers an abundance dimension of craziness you can muster. Mitsu was posted because he represented the power aspect.

Unrelated but who here rather I move the prelim date to May 1st?

[Vordak]

Yeah, i've pretty much the same problem as Melon here; though i won't be participating for different reasons: namely, i've got to prepare for entrance exams in June, which certainly takes the priority.

tl;dr, the gist of my concerns is that with the all-inclusiveness presented in the schedule system, one would have to be equally all-inclusive with their defensive capability, lest they want to be steamrolled out the gates by an un-reactable attack that they didn't have the appropriate innate defense against. Ironically, this means that while one is free from the pressure of rigidly defined character regulations, it is merely exchanged for the ambigious, unpredictable threat of their opposition's capabilities - which also carries the rather severe reprecussion of competetive unviability should the player fail to take everything into account.

I strongly belive that the competition should be focused within the fight itself, without being defined to such a great degree by the character matchup itself, especially in a competetive enviroment. Nobody should be thrown into an immediately uphill battle when participating in a tournament.

EDIT: i don't mean to say that every possible attack should be capable of being dodged or blocked by a baseline, minimally versatile character of the appropriate tier; but i do insist that the exception to the rule should be in the minority and have appropriately weighed damage or effects.

[Mobius]

tl;dr, the gist of my concerns is that with the all-inclusiveness presented in the schedule system, one would have to be equally all-inclusive with their defensive capability, lest they want to be steamrolled out the gates by an un-reactable attack that they didn't have the appropriate innate defense against.

@Vordak

That is the nature of roleplaying combat from the get-go. You aren't really allowed the ability to counter everything without someone calling you a godmodder/powergamer nor should you know everything that is coming to you from your opponent or you're a metagamer. That's specifically how this game was designed outside of a few places or a power-scale set.

Ironically, this means that while one is free from the pressure of rigidly defined character regulations, it is merely exchanged for the ambigious, unpredictable threat of their opposition's capabilities - which also carries the rather severe reprecussion of competetive unviability should the player fail to take everything into account.

@Vordak

Yeah that's called disparity and it has existed since I started this. I wouldn't exactly say ambiguous though unless you mean random chance of encountering a hazard you aren't/can't prepare for. You can't account for everything otherwise you wouldn't be entirely competitive nor viable. The scheduling system actually supplants the original b/r because there was a metric ton of rules, bans, and regulations that sandbag anything not gunner/rush.

I strongly belive that the competition should be focused within the fight itself, without being defined to such a great degree by the character matchup itself, especially in a competetive enviroment. Nobody should be thrown into an immediately uphill battle when participating in a tournament.

@Vordak

What does any of that actually mean?

EDIT: i don't mean to say that every possible attack should be capable of being dodged or blocked by a baseline, minimally versatile character of the appropriate tier; but i do insist that the exception to the rule should be in the minority and have appropriately weighed damage or effects.

@Vordak

Essentially that's what you said above. In fact, this system encourages more versatility than the current because dimensional powers, a former banned power, can resurface. I don't truly get what you mean since your premise is contradicting itself. Can you clarify?

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UPDATE IMPORTANT READ NOW!

I spoke to some of the players and they voted to move the Preliminaries to MAY 1st. So the sign ups will be extended for 2 weeks.. which is good for me!

[MelonHead]

Electricity is a schedule 3 because there are forces within nature or in some of the other profiles that could manage it, but the conditions necessary to actively counter it is impractical and you'd be right; however, high tier amps up the levels of every ability a character has to a degree in where electricity, even to the magnitude of Mitsu, is not only manageable but may actually be somewhat negligible unless he revved it up to their pace. Mitsu is an incredibly strong character, but there are strategies to protect yourself against projectiles that some of us in TZDL already have

vertex.wikia.com/wiki/Auto-Defense

All things considered: even without crimson lightning, electricity is fast and strong enough to be considered "high tier" but it isn't. Argryia's Serenity Redstar had no problems with Mouse's Mitsu Mazono in their exhibition in 2009 and in their quarterfinal match in TZDL2011. I defeated Mitsu Mazono in an exhibition match in 2013 and my character's attacks aren't close to the speed electricity moves. Electricity, by itself, has some gnarly properties and banning it outright isn't exactly fair and would hurt the actual diversity I went for when I made the scheduling system (which got a lot of powers and meta unbanned or deregulated significantly). Roleplaying offers an abundance dimension of craziness you can muster. Mitsu was posted because he represented the power aspect.

@Devil

Upon reading the sheet further I summarised that the user of the ability maybe underplayed their own abilities, as there was reference to 'becoming' a lightning bolt and moving at the speed of 260mph, which we both know is not how fast an actual lightning bolt moves, I assume the ability was used more like a fantasy 'magical bolt of lightning' rather than what we see in a lightning storm.

I can see how an auto-defence mechanic allows you to mitigate attacks such as the one described, I have to confess I'm not overly familiar with auto-defence as the predominant system for fighting used here is the T1 Eden Era system which involves using preps to actively attack and defend. Not to say they're not seen, but usually at the higher levels of play where gunfire and projectiles in general become borderline obsolete without sufficient energy or creativity divulged in their usage.

Ultimately, I'm not really cut out for this tier level of play anyway. I consider myself overall pretty competent at low and mid powered combat, but there is a pretty significant division from logic and real world grounding that one has to basically accept to move into the higher tier of character power. It's all just a little too abstract for me at those power levels, though I will definitely enjoy reading some of the fights that come out of this tournament if it finds its players.

[Decoy]

There was some underplaying involved when initially describing the Thunder God Teleport technique (becoming a bolt of lightning). Reason for this was due to a self-imposed limitation and in addition trying to remain within the confines of rulesets at that time. In short; The speed "260 MPH" was a mere throw in number at a time where such things were for posterity and not for actual design

[Mobius]

<Snipped quote by Devil>

Upon reading the sheet further I summarised that the user of the ability maybe underplayed their own abilities, as there was reference to 'becoming' a lightning bolt and moving at the speed of 260mph, which we both know is not how fast an actual lightning bolt moves, I assume the ability was used more like a fantasy 'magical bolt of lightning' rather than what we see in a lightning storm.

@MelonHead

As Decoy pointed out it was a self imposed limitation, but even then even if it wasn't after a certain amount of mphs it becomes irrelevant and with a proper pvp build you could at least hope to survive or win quick enough to not lose.

I can see how an auto-defence mechanic allows you to mitigate attacks such as the one described, I have to confess I'm not overly familiar with auto-defence as the predominant system for fighting used here is the T1 Eden Era system which involves using preps to actively attack and defend. Not to say they're not seen, but usually at the higher levels of play where gunfire and projectiles in general become borderline obsolete without sufficient energy or creativity divulged in their usage.

@Melonhead

That's fine. We have many other working mechanics and not all characters have to be human to qualify. Mismatch and disparity is a norm in pvp and Mitsu, being strong, will have to rely on his mixup rather than his actual element (this has happened before in other sites he played in).

Ultimately, I'm not really cut out for this tier level of play anyway. I consider myself overall pretty competent at low and mid powered combat, but there is a pretty significant division from logic and real world grounding that one has to basically accept to move into the higher tier of character power. It's all just a little too abstract for me at those power levels, though I will definitely enjoy reading some of the fights that come out of this tournament if it finds its players.

@Melonhead

Just power of roleplaying and you take things as is not as is real life all the time. This is why I said mid-high as opposed to mid to high. The former stating that we are still within the "middle" range while having some obscene levels of power. I know people want to have some fun too.

[Darth]

I haven't fought in about.. six years now. I guess I'll dust off the boots for this tournament, though, since I've been getting a bit of the itch in the past few months.

I also joined the Discord with 2swole2control as my tag, although I don't know how active I'll be there.

[Vordak]

@Devil

Not contradicting: my argument is not for a complete ban of certain power categories; rather, for the degree of regulation.

Disparity is okay up untill the moment you find yourself unable to anyhow interact with your opponent's attacks other than take damage, which is seldom an entertaining thing. Dodge, block, constantly outmaneouver and stay out of their effective range - one should still be able to deal with the majority of their opponent's kit with the baseline tools, taking crippling punishment for being unable to effectively utilize the options at their disposal, not for lacking a specific option.

Shoving someone around with shockwaves out of a limited resource pool is fine; as is taking potshots at someone with a two-shot gun that'll bruise, or heavily injure only if it hits a vital point. Both have the potential to end a fight on their own, but under specific circumstances, which makes it the wielder's job to work for the kill, not the recepient's worry about having the right tool to avoid an otherwise looming doom.

Combining heavy damage with a innate requirement for additional defenses - meaning it's unreasonable to expect any conventional means of defense to worl, such as dodging - is a recipie for salt. I don't want to be burnt to a toasty crisp just because i had no faraday cage on my face, or have said face blown off by a gauss gun (which is assume is far beyond the realm of convetional firearms in terms of projectile speed) because my character isn't tougher than a battleship.

I may be misinterpreting the actual reality of this tournament's character balancing system; but then again, i feel like a Mitsu Vs Mitsu mirror match would be just like one of those wild west cowboy duels: whomever draws first and nails the other with a shot is the winner.

EDIT: this is all a purely theoretical debate, to remind everyone. I wont be able to participate for unrelated reasons regardless. Be civil, be nice, know when to abandon ship.

EDIT 2: i'm not assuming that you're completely oblivious to uch concerns or the like; rather, i am simply stating my stance and expressing my doubts reagrding the actual implementation of the concept and, most importantly, its sufficiency, to elaborate on my statement in the beggining of this post.

[Keileon]

Combining heavy damage with a innate requirement for additional defenses - meaning it's unreasonable to expect any conventional means of defense to worl, such as dodging - is a recipie for salt. I don't want to be burnt to a toasty crisp just because i had no faraday cage on my face, or have said face blown off by a gauss gun (which is assume is far beyond the realm of convetional firearms in terms of projectile speed) because my character isn't tougher than a battleship.

@Vordak

There are other alternatives to defenses. You don't have to be tougher than a battleship or faster than a bullet to avoid getting hit by a gauss gun, you can just learn to recognize and utilize tells and thus your character can anticipate the shot without metagaming or pulling speed shenanigans. And dodging is like any other defense- sometimes it's viable, sometimes it's best to find another alternative.

[Vordak]

@Keileon

The action of aiming and firing a gun leans towards the faster side of things, which can already be a pain in the arse; of course, there's the usual gunner vs target argument, which revolves around not being in front of the gun's barrel before it even fires; and there's stuff like smokebombs to break line of sight in abscence of any other means, which most characters have access to in one form or another. That doesn't change the fact that it's a borderline powerful tool, especially if ou consider that the gunner himself can take countermeasures as well. Sneaky stuff like through-the-pocket shots or just deploying a smokebomb and immediately firing through the veil; or plain practical semi-auto fire. Credit where it's due though, consecutive shots from Mitsu's gun are weaker.

[Geraven]

Geraven/Josh here. I'm down.

[Mobius]

@Devil

Not contradicting: my argument is not for a complete ban of certain power categories; rather, for the degree of regulation.

@Vordak

What would you regulate?

Disparity is okay up untill the moment you find yourself unable to anyhow interact with your opponent's attacks other than take damage, which is seldom an entertaining thing. Dodge, block, constantly outmaneouver and stay out of their effective range - one should still be able to deal with the majority of their opponent's kit with the baseline tools, taking crippling punishment for being unable to effectively utilize the options at their disposal, not for lacking a specific option.

@Vordak

That's the premise of combat in roleplaying especially because of specific builds. Not one build is going to hard counter everything with respect to the scheduling system. What exactly is the problem with getting interrupted because of interception or are you speaking about power disparity which.. can't be helped I don't know what to tell you.

Shoving someone around with shockwaves out of a limited resource pool is fine; as is taking potshots at someone with a two-shot gun that'll bruise, or heavily injure only if it hits a vital point. Both have the potential to end a fight on their own, but under specific circumstances, which makes it the wielder's job to work for the kill, not the recepient's worry about having the right tool to avoid an otherwise looming doom.

@Vordak

Is this geared to a limitation of specific tech or specific build for techs? There are characters in previous tournaments that didn't use guns that were just fine. Skill is based on choices and judgement during and before a fight even begins. You can't have the right tool for every job as I said earlier, and if you are worried about tools for everything then perhaps you should rethink how you play.

Combining heavy damage with a innate requirement for additional defenses - meaning it's unreasonable to expect any conventional means of defense to worl, such as dodging - is a recipie for salt. I don't want to be burnt to a toasty crisp just because i had no faraday cage on my face, or have said face blown off by a gauss gun (which is assume is far beyond the realm of convetional firearms in terms of projectile speed) because my character isn't tougher than a battleship.

@Vordak

I had no problem beating that very character and I have neither electricity nor a railgun. Here was my build and my main

I may be misinterpreting the actual reality of this tournament's character balancing system; but then again, i feel like a Mitsu Vs Mitsu mirror match would be just like one of those wild west cowboy duels: whomever draws first and nails the other with a shot is the winner.

@Vordak

Contrary to popular belief: that is how roleplay fighting really is. It can be INSANELY fast based on numerous of calculations and miscalculations that may not even involve the lionshare of someone's abilities. Here's a frame of reference:
s8.zetaboards.com/TheZones/topic/58417.. Lokanas vs Mouse (Mitsu is in this fight)
s8.zetaboards.com/TheZones/topic/58447.. Argryia vs Lokanas (TZDL2011 Preliminaries)
s8.zetaboards.com/TheZones/topic/58450.. Ares vs PsykoDucky (TZDL2007 Preliminaries)

I mean if this isn't your cup of tea that's fine. It isn't that hard to grasp since I said in the OP that even we're using "mid/high" it is hard to accurately measure based on that because characters are inherently different and not Dragon Ball Z.

EDIT 2: i'm not assuming that you're completely oblivious to uch concerns or the like; rather, i am simply stating my stance and expressing my doubts reagrding the actual implementation of the concept and, most importantly, its sufficiency, to elaborate on my statement in the beggining of this post.

@Vordak

Did you also deduce that this was an interest check and a draft. It isn't the final product.

Edit: I forgot to add Ares vs Psykoducky which is important cause an OHK happened and neither used guns. It was a mismatch cause of plastic vs plasma. Again.. builds matter.

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Update! The preliminaries start in May 1st and I got a few sign ups in the OP.

[Maquina]

Let's keep it cool here, folks. No need to get jammies rustled three weeks before the thing even kicks off.

[Vordak]

Certainly not my cup of tea, and has been that way since a long time.

Evidently, my personal preference is to minimize the influence that a build has on he inherent difficulty of a a fight, ideally making it so that the player would have an equally hard time fighting against every opponent they will be facing - that's especially important to consider, imho, in light of the fact that most tournament allow only one character in, preventing the player from picking a more favorable matchup if desired, as is common practice in many competetive gaming scenes: pocket characters in fighting games, different loadout picks and team composition in FPS games, both of the above in a MOBA. Alongside with implementing multiple round systems, in which the players have to win more than once against their opponent, this allow for one to both adapt to their opposition's playstyle, strategy - and, pertaining to the topic at hand, negate the influence a bad matchup. It's commonly accepted practice, in other words, and it probably dos make competition more fair and skill-oriented.

Of course, the mechanics of rp fighting are different, the reins of character creation being in the hands of the player. Theoretically, someone with enough knowledge, experience and creativity can come up with an ample character build that allows to be a jack of all trades, master of none, comfortable agaist any opponent. However, the dfficulty of accomplishing that aside, you yourself proceed to say that trying to have the right tool for every matchup isn't the right way to go, which was sort of what i wanted to say: it's the norm to have a bad matchup and the opposite is most likely quite boring and hard to acheive. However with such powerful, make-or-break tools that the current regulations allow for (as far as i see), the difficulty of a bad matchup can get needlessly amplified: getting oneshot because of your character's specific build, in a situation where other competitors could have been much more successful, is pretty vexxing, to say the least, and not very fair. It's the difference between having a hard time and having no time at all to do anything because you get fooken rekt stemroled m8 that i am concerned about.

If you think that my point of view, along with my deductive ability, are bullshit, and that i should rethink my way of life, that's fine. This isn't a practical concern of mine, as said before, and i'm willing to drop the argument entierly if it starts becoming redundant or sparks trouble.

[Dias Blade]

Yo~

[Drifting Pollen]

Oh, oh, pick me! I'll fight!