In Defense Of The Genre [Part II]

[AngelofOctober]

<Snipped quote by yoshua171>

This is fair. We generally operate under the assumption that people know precisely what they've done when they get banned but I can see how that isn't self-explanatory 100% of the time, and implementing your suggestion prevents people feigning ignorance even if they do understand.

As for everyone else, I'll be replying to all valid points of discussion in this thread over the course of this week. I'd also like to make it clear that I definitely won't be banning anyone for speaking their mind about the administration in this thread... as long as they don't break any other site rules in doing so. Nobody is in the "firing line" for a ban here.

@Hank

I know I am not a part of this and I definitely do not want to be dragged into this drama. I felt that if we’re having a discussion and as someone with no prior personal connection with these people. I also do think it’s fair for mods to consider what the person they want to ban has said.

Speaking from experience I have gotten banned on another website, despite the mods clearly recognizing the situation was a misunderstanding on both parties. I simply wanted to add, speaking also from experience being the administrator of my own website, that Administration needs flexibility. Yes, we have rules.

But people actions aren’t always so black and white. Sure posting a picture of a vulgar image, or purposely calling someone out I believe is something that is in direct violation of rules. Also just calling someone a potato muncher pajama bottom is also a direct violation of the rules and how to treat people.

But rarely conversations are like that. It becomes problematic to simply ban one person, if they felt the other person was attacking them or misunderstood their tone. I have always believed, when training my staff, that is the moderators and administrators job to mediate and diffuse a situation. Before they get all to happy with the ban hammer.

Those are some of my thoughts from administration experience and member experience.

[Didgeridont]

I think that there should be a little more openness in how the administration conducts their work. I understand that they don't want to foster huge drama and debate, but I feel as if keeping all moderator action on the down low isn't as conducive to a drama-less environment as one might expect.

People sometimes want to ask why their friends were banned, or why some thread was closed, even if they aren't the direct target of administrative action: this kind of stuff is natural. People are naturally curious. People have friends that they care about. This shouldn't be discouraged. In fact, I think these kinds of questions should be answered. They don't have to answered in public, you can discuss these issues in PMs or DMs, but I think it is important not to leave naturally curious people in the dark. Leaving people grasping for answers only leaves them filling in the gaps, creating more hostility and allowing drama to fester and mutate, until it gets to a critical mass and . . . something bad happens.

I would also think that having a clear, defined, and standardized way to categorize bans, thread locks, and other administrative actions would be key in alleviating some of the problems people see with the guild administration. Having just a simple form the administration could use to explain the who, what, when, where, and why of a given ban/threadlock would be much better than nothing. It would give the administration a way to be more accountable to themselves and others without having to divulge all the information. They can simply save a form that shows who was banned, why they were banned, what rules they broke, what evidence there is, and how long the ban goes for. I think that implementing a standard to how bans should be conducted, saving it somewhere, and sending privately it to both the target of the action and anyone who might be curious would be a much more efficient and open way to conduct bans. The same would go with bans on Discord.

For thread closures, I would also urge a standardized way of tabulating the details of the closure. However, I would also urge that the form describing what rules were broken be posted directly on the thread for all to see, so as to not warrant suspicious regarding unnecessary thread closings and to elucidate what kind of behavior is not acceptable in a given sub-forum/thread.

[pugbutter]

I know I've only been here a week, but lemme give all you peeps some advice. Be yourself and if you get banned, then fuck it - there's plenty other sites to go to. If you're involved in a creative environment, but are afraid to say things or talk about things for fear of being banned then staying isn't worth it.

No matter how much work you put into this place, or time you devote to it, unless you own the site then being a member here is a "blessing not a right". There are no laws stating that they have to do anything when it comes to whom they ban.

Personally I haven't had any problems here yet, being new, but already this place looks a little shady based on the mod's responses.

A lot of websites have a Ban List, with the name of the user and a pic/link to the post that got them banned. Nothing else said about it. It's a locked thread so no one can reply to it. This is a great idea because it will stop the questioning of your judgments AND make sure the mod's can't abuse their power because they have to show the proof of their actions.

And people should be able to make appeals for others, especially if they have evidence. There's really no legitimate reason to not allow that, except for the fact that you don't want to.

@Master

That line of logic—"If you don't like it, go play another game"—has ruined far more communities already. If the owners/staff/moderators (of any site, not just this one) are immune to criticism then they have no real incentive to change anything. If they can dodge their responsibilities by telling themselves, "There are other RP sites for these whiners to move to," they'll never find a reason to make their own site better. After all, you cannot reconcile a simple difference in tastes between two roleplayers.

Frankly, this thread symbolizes progress. The first 2-3 times this happened the mods fully committed themselves to damage control: they tone-policed, claiming that you could discuss any controversial topic you like but only with certain pre-approved styles of rhetoric. They blatantly censored, first claiming that they deleted threads for their "insulting" or "inflammatory" nature, but then deleting the same threads a second time even when edited to fit a non-provocative tone. And this censorship, as a matter of fact, transcended the site itself and its connected applications, as some mods tried to prevent us from discussing these issues in others' Discord channels, and even in my own. They didn't want the story getting out anywhere.

If they're allowing this discussion to finally take place, they must have realized that their coverup failed. Utterly and spectacularly. People are naturally curious, and some of them even risk bans/mutes to find the answers they seek. They go to the mods seeking these answers, and when the mods refuse to provide them, those players will talk to each other instead, including people like me, the ones with big mouths and bold opinions. Hypothetically speaking, I can lie to these curious parties, or at least present the facts to them through a biased lens, whereas the mods have finally realized that letting us speak for ourselves, publicly and openly, in a forum where we're held accountable only for our own explicit words and actions, means no one will have to wonder why someone was banned if he said something offensive in this thread. We can read it for ourselves. Further, the opinions expressed here cannot be cherrypicked, taken out of context.

At least while this thread is up, we don't have to speculate anymore as to why so-and-so was banned, nor what inflammatory things he said preceding this penal action. Here we're held accountable for our own words, presented in their purest form, directly from our own mouths. To flinch from this thread, to decry its existence, is to eschew honesty itself.

I'll add, too, that although this site is seriously flawed, it's also the best I've found for quenching my thirst in writing creative fiction. For that reason alone, I'd sooner help in any way I can to repair it than simply burn bridges and migrate to another. A nigga ain't shit if he ain't loyal.

[POOHEAD189]

I cannot say I am familiar with what is going on here. The past few months I've been too busy with RPs and personal projects to check discord nearly as often as I used to. However, I was an Admin longer than most on Cynder's and MidnightHowl's RPGuild Discord server, and though I have no true hat in the race, I'm going to give some of my experiences so others might take note of them.

• Unbeknownst to many, including the other admins, I was often approached by users who claimed to be banned unfairly, or a friend of theirs had been. I would get to the bottom of it, and petition one of the higher admins to reinstate the banned person. This happened far too often for my liking.
• If someone ever messaged me, asking me for help on an issue, the first state of business I would conduct would be to speak to both parties and try to find an agreement on an issue. Unless of course one was clearly just being hateful and trollish to another. If that was impossible, then I would start reprimanding them. This was not how other admins worked, oddly enough. Let me be clear on this message. I am NOT referring to Hanks 'we are simply too busy to see all problems' quote. I am referring to admins who boot people, and claim they do not have 'time' to listen to this 'horseshit.' If you are a moderator or an admin, and you think to yourself 'I don't have time for this shit' then you need to either fucking make time or step down. You are here to give your time to the community. If listening to people's issues gets too time consuming/annoying to you, then people's issues do not get addressed. Your JOB is to address them.
• Mob mentalities are less of a problem on a forum, but on discord it is a huge issue. I've seen at least four people, one in particular who was my friend, banned not because they did something wrong, but because of the mob. They would say something that others didn't like (perhaps these 'others' had problems with them on the forum prior), and then the group of people would goad them by annoying them and poking them, until the person made a mistake, and was banned for it. While I am not on the side of Admins having complete control, there are obvious reasons why they don't make decisions publicly. I've seen far too many witch hunts to ask the normal user on why this person should or should not be banned. However if they come to me, of course I will listen. It's my job after all.
• Keep in mind that someone who has had various complains against them probably deserves to get banned before someone who makes a single questionable act. I do not know all that happened between j8cob and the discord, or who called for 'death of muslims.' But from what I know of j8cob, he has probably made many problems in the past. This could very easily have been the last straw, compared to this other person's racist comment (though I do think that a SERIOUS suggestion of threat against Muslims should be shut down immediately).

My main points here are, while I can agree with the people who have complaints here, many of them have also been complained about for similar things and we should all keep in mind that people make mistakes. It's an admin's, and indeed a community's prerogative, to talk them out between them, and be understanding of each other as well.

[pugbutter]

If you are a moderator or an admin, and you think to yourself 'I don't have time for this shit' then you need to either fucking make time or step down. You are here to give your time to the community. If listening to people's issues gets too time consuming/annoying to you, then people's issues do not get addressed. Your JOB is to address them.

@POOHEAD189

Yep. We've got at least one mod, and maybe more, who think that being a mod just means building a power base; kicking and banning the people you dislike, and letting the surviving sycophants line up to suck your clit. But once it comes time to actually read threads, delete the ones which break rules, settle disputes, and so on, suddenly they "can't handle this right now" because they're too tired, busy, distracted. They don't have to do anything when it's inconvenient since it's "not exactly a paid job."

Like, motherfucker you volunteered for it. What's more, you're one of the few who were actually accepted as mods from the large pool of people who volunteered, meaning you were deemed among the best of the bunch for the position. Who the hell are you thinking you're above the obligations of the position, whereas reaping the privileges is perfectly easy and desirable?

[Dion]

<Snipped quote by Hank>

This is why, @Odin. If they want to return they can make the effort themselves.

@Hank

I cannot help but wonder why you made this a rule or protocol but didn't ban people talking about advocating the literal murder of everyone of a certain religion.

I'm not one to get touchy about these subjects but the arbitrary nature of the application of the rules is more than clear to me. I don't care what he said and I don't want Sven to get banned, mostly because he doesn't use the site anyway (hey, where did we hear that before, ho right, neither J8 nor Nyt used the site anyway therefore they weren't a loss anyway).

But it's striking how you decided to handle this argument. 'We don't discuss bans with others' yet Nyt and J8's names have been linked to my own a few times for no reason other than I am friends with them (or in the case of Nyt, we didn't even really get along that well at first to begin with). So why is it that you can link users together but then do not allow them to speak together?

Why is it 'Odin and his friends' when talking about us but not when talking to us?

That whole issue aside, I'm just curious to what your logic is when you are defending someone that said in your own official (official!!!!!!) RPG discord that he wants all muslims to die, but then refuse to do so or even hear an argument in favour of two people who in comparison have said things that were only tame to begin with.

Aria told us that it was because 'Sven was free to say and think what he likes to think, because we do not control thoughts' or something along that line. I assume that represents the opinions of the mod team.

Then I assume that that also goes for both J8cob and Nyt. This was evidently not the case as they were both banned for saying what they thought.

Keep me banned. Honestly, nothing of value was lost anyway. But Nyt and J8 didn't deserve what they got.

[Cyndyr]

#LeaveGowiAlone

@Dynamo Frokane

Gowi is free to leave the thread at any point in time if he no longer wants to be involved. Until he makes that decision, however, his feedback and commentary is welcomed. Seeing how this is a discussion, however, he should expect counterpoints to be made.

On a side note, one of the screenshots in the OP has been commented on as NOT being the entire conversation, so I will be providing further context as promised. Further screenshots will be provided once I'm out of work.

[Dion]

Keep in mind that someone who has had various complains against them probably deserves to get banned before someone who makes a single questionable act. I do not know all that happened between j8cob and the discord, or who called for 'death of muslims.' But from what I know of j8cob, he has probably made many problems in the past. This could very easily have been the last straw, compared to this other person's racist comment (though I do think that a SERIOUS suggestion of threat against Muslims should be shut down immediately).

@POOHEAD189

Thanks Poohead. Keep in mind it is literally said, in this thread, that Sven was previously banned (not only once, but twice, IIRC) for telling people to kill themselves.

What a dumb argument. Please. Try harder. J8 has done nothing wrong except disagree with people in the chat. If that would call for a ban I'd have been long gone myself. And so would many others.

[AngelofOctober]

I'd like to add one more thing.

As an Administrator of my own website I tried to include accommodations for members with conditions. I know this is a little off topic, but I wanted to add on my A Moderator and Admin needs to determine if someone's behavior was out of cruel maliciousness or simply out of misunderstanding or something else entirely. People are not always simply good and evil and they encompass all shades of gray.

I have multiple mental health diagnoses and they do impact the way I communicate with people. I often have a hard time processing a situation, especially when people are jumping down my throat or it feels like someone is attacking me. Because I have a delay in process I tend to react instead of rationally think. But that's my atypical brain chemistry.

There's this notion with moderators on websites that they can't give people any special treatment. But what some people see as special treatment is simply accommodations and make the website a more pleasant place for people with disorders. As I said earlier it is up to the moderators to diffuse, and deflate a situation. Instead of simply handing out the bans.

And I know I am digressing the point. But since we're talking. I think that it is a moderators job to communicate with the members having issues with each other. To reach some kind of understand. I.e. in my case, it's a "I talked to so and so, he was having a hard time that day and felt that your tone of voice was rude and he lashed out, he didn't mean to do so but because of his condition sometimes he has a difficult day. Are you willing to talk to him?"

In the three years I was an administrator for the website I joined, I had a kid who had downs syndrome and an IQ of 80. When members had trouble with him. I talked to them both all the way through and I got him to understand by simplifying the issue, but I never once touched him with a ban hammer. Maybe a timeout to get him to cool down because I knew it can be difficult for him to process that situation. And I let him vent to me about the situation. But I never banned him because he had an impairment and that impairment he couldn't always be 100% in control of regulating himself to the website rules.

And no one on the website had an issue with it when I explained to them "Look he has downs syndrome and he has a lower IQ than the rest of you, in this case I know he upset you, but we can talk about this as mature adults"

Another thing is moderators letting members vent to them. There have been a number of times a situation has upset me. A moderator threatens a ban or a warning and I am still upset because of the situation and I get in worse trouble because I say something in a moment of anger.

All of this goes back to the Administration needs to be flexible and take in everything as a consideration.

I wanted to bring this up in this topic since we're talking about moderator behavior and such. And the moderators are willing to discuss policy with the members right now.

[pugbutter]

@AngelofOctober On the other hand there was an autistic/savant moderator on RSWiki who banned anyone he didn't like, for any reason he chose. And this isn't something you can cover up, since everyone can see the edit histories of the user and forum pages; so when it came to light that these people were banned unfairly, this mod hid behind his disorder(s) as an excuse. He got angry easily, he was tired and cranky, he didn't know what the other person was saying or why he was trying to be so "mean" to him...whatever the case, always an excuse. He was always the ill-perceived victim both of his own brain and of other people's cruelty, and his autism always shielded him from criticism, since he "couldn't help himself," in one way or another.

Eventually the site staff wised up and booted him from his position of power, but most of the damage was already done, irreversible.

"Making accommodations" sometimes crosses the line into blatant favoritism. Not to mention that if you're a moderator, nothing excuses you from the responsibilities of your post. If you're unfit for the task then you don't belong in that station, plain and simple, particularly when plenty of other users on the site are more competent and fair than you, and can easily be equipped to replace you and give the site a proper leader. Giving power to the less-capable as an act of mercy, or even pity, is just foolish.

[AngelofOctober]

@pugbutter

Well luckily the kid I kept from being banned on my website was able to recognize his behavior. He always apologized after I talked to him and always thanked me afterwards.

And I am genuinely the same. I know sometimes I have a habit of getting so frazzled in a situation that it's like a light switch in my head and I cannot comprehend or rationally think.

When I reread a scenario I go, yeah, woops. And I often take responsibility for my actions. Those are the type of people I am talking about making accommodations for.

The people who have an outburst

Recognize it

Apologize

And are genuinely trying to show good will in their behavior. But again that's the job of a moderator to determine who is being malicious for the sake of maliciousness. And those who just had a bad day, had am moment.

I am on medication, and I have Autism. There are days or moments or situations that become too much for me and I just can't process it. And I know I shouldn't erupt. I know I should step away. Sometimes I do.

But there are those moments where I can't rationalize those steps and I have a meltdown. But I don't do it because I want to hurt people. I don't do it because I am acting with some form of ill will. I do it because I feel attacked, slighted, or I just don't know how to handle the situation.

But I always try to better myself. I always try to apologize and take responsibility for the actions I take. Because they are still my actions.

But because I put in the time and effort to control myself, to take a step back, breathe, then take responsibility and never blame someone else for my actions. I believe those people, are the ones who should get those accommodations.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Thanks Poohead. Keep in mind it is literally said, in this thread, that Sven was previously banned (not only once, but twice, IIRC) for telling people to kill themselves.

What a dumb argument. Please. Try harder. J8 has done nothing wrong except disagree with people in the chat. If that would call for a ban I'd have been long gone myself. And so would many others.

@Odin

Um, I literally specified that I had no idea what was going on between J8, and I didn't even know who Sven is. Did you read my post? And that is a legitimate question, not a passive aggressive poke.

I do not know all that happened between j8cob and the discord, or who called for 'death of muslims.'

[Dion]

@POOHEAD189 Then why reply specifically to that, lol. You assumed he did something wrong on what basis? You assumed Sven must've done nothing wrong before on what basis?

Exactly.

[Cyndyr]

Keep in mind it is literally said, in this thread, that Sven was previously banned (not only once, but twice, IIRC) for telling people to kill themselves.

@Odin

Adding onto this, Sven still has complaints against him to this day which may or may not be related to past experiences. Not even that, but a number of other users also have complaints against them as well for a myriad of reasons ranging from "being creeped on" via PMs, for posting offensive content, and so on.

J8cob was not warned prior to his ban and it seems to be related to the photo that existed in his signature. It should be noted that said photo can be found in Hank's previously listed Evidence Locker and the rule that Mahz cited had only been tecentedly added to the rule list without notifying the website of said change ("No Discord drama", I believe is said rule).

I'm not saying that I'm against authority by any means or said authority performing their tasks as I've been admin of several websites myself and I understand how stressful it can be, however, I am saying that the rules on the website may be written too loosely and allow for inconsistent Staff actions.

[POOHEAD189]

@POOHEAD189 Then why reply specifically to that, lol. You assumed he did something wrong on what basis? You assumed Sven must've done nothing wrong before on what basis?

Exactly.

@Odin

People have come to me because of J8 being a Troll. Like I said I was an admin. I'm not attacking anyone or choosing sides, but giving my experiences as an Admin. You also need to be a bit more cordial in the thread btw. This is a discussion about the community, not your dick size.

@Cyndyr If that is the case, then Sven should have definitely been banned.

[Dion]

@POOHEAD189 If only everyone was like you, basing opinions of others on what others have told them. We'd live in such an amazing world. I don't have to be cordial. Not when you're just spewing nonsense. Get a grip.

[POOHEAD189]

@POOHEAD189 If only everyone was like you, basing opinions of others on what others have told them. We'd live in such an amazing world. I don't have to be cordial. Not when you're just spewing nonsense. Get a grip.

@Odin

Well if I am not there, then that's how you do it. Though I go back and look at screenshots or them trolling first hand, of course. You're taking everything I've said to an extreme, Odin. For a third time, I was simply relaying my experiences. But yes, if I have to spell it all out. I've seen J8 troll, had complaints about him, and seen screenshots as well.

I don't know why you're banned, I don't know why Sven was not. I'm not an Admin in the discord now. I'm legitimately sorry if you're frustrated, but I wasn't specifically attacking you or J8, and most of my post was agreeing with Cynder and Nyte and you, as well. Admins need to be held accountable.

[Dion]

@POOHEAD189 It's just incredibly stupid to me that you, a self proclaimed admin with experience, would base opinions on what other people have told you. Have you ever spoken to J8cob?

What if I started basing my opinions of you based on what I've been told, and I've been told a lot, that wouldn't leave you in a good light, would it? But I don't do that because I assume you're more than what I've been told.

It's an all too common problem, because that's what it is, a problem, for people on RPG to assume things about other people based on what they've heard or what they've been shown. I suppose it's just easier.

I'm not at all frustrated however. I've simply accepted that this is what RPG is - a stagnant pool of water. Like I said, it's not going anywhere and neither am I.

[POOHEAD189]

@POOHEAD189 It's just incredibly stupid to me that you, a self proclaimed admin with experience, would base opinions on what other people have told you. Have you ever spoken to J8cob?

What if I started basing my opinions of you based on what I've been told, and I've been told a lot, that wouldn't leave you in a good light, would it? But I don't do that because I assume you're more than what I've been told.

@Odin

But yes, if I have to spell it all out. I've seen J8 troll, had complaints about him, and seen screenshots as well.

@POOHEAD189

But yes, if I have to spell it all out. I've seen J8 troll, had complaints about him, and seen screenshots as well.

@POOHEAD189

But yes, if I have to spell it all out. I've seen J8 troll, had complaints about him, and seen screenshots as well.

@POOHEAD189

[Dion]

@POOHEAD189 I've not seen J8 troll once. Maybe that's because I was more active in your own server than you were, but who knows. I'm leaving this discussion with you, because it's gonna end up getting this thread closed. You wanna talk then you know where to find me.

But please, don't make an effort. I don't really wanna talk to you.