RPGC #23: InGlorious - Discussion

[Frizan]

Feel free to direct any feedback or questions here! Please keep discussion relevant to the associated contest. All other Guild posting rules also apply.

[The Nexerus]

I've never entered one of these before. I might submit something this time around.

[Crimson Raven]

This particular subject has always been close to my heart. How does a 'hero' become a 'villain'?

Perhaps further, what is a hero? what is a villain? And what makes them so? Good and Evil are, ultimately, subjective, either the opinion of the individual, by their conscience, or dictated by a higher power, be that higher power a government or a god. What happens when the conscious of the individual clashes with those of the high power? In that situation, how does one know which is right?

All fun philosophical fodder for a story. Very easily can the line between villain and hero be blurred beyond all recognition.

I'm going to do my best to get a submission in for this one. That said, I'm also a legendary procrastinator, so take the previous statement with a grain of salt.

[Loksfjoer]

I haven't started yet, but my son had 2 weeks of easter vacation and I got very little writing done in general. There is still time and now that school started again, I have more time to write, so I will do my best to complete a story, because I do have an idea for this.

[Crimson Raven]

So I have actually finished my story. Wooo

Inspiration hit me like a truck and from there I tapped it out in a few hours.

However, I have a small issue: it’s 2,086 words. I don’t want to shorten it more, because I feel I’ll lose some of the story if I do. But I’m willing to if needed.

The Rules ask to keep it under 2,000. 86 isn’t too much over. May I submit my slightly too long story?

Edit: 2,048 and dropping.

[SleepingSilence]

You could post it, but it *really* should be disqualifying...

If not, frankly I'll throw my hands up in the air. Because I spent several days to edit my story to actually follow the rules. Longer stories tend to be fuller ones, and would have automatic advantages to ones who didn't go over the word limit. And having people not follow the length twice in a row being the reason my story suffers, would be slightly infuriating.

I'd also be immediately a thousand times more critical in analysis. Like every single word *better* be 100% needed to work. And so rarely is that the case. I'd likely read it, go "I could make this under 2000 words" and have it work. And tear it to pieces, in the same way I've done my own to get it to fit.

[Frizan]

So I have actually finished my story. Wooo

Inspiration hit me like a truck and from there I tapped it out in a few hours.

However, I have a small issue: it’s 2,086 words. I don’t want to shorten it more, because I feel I’ll lose some of the story if I do. But I’m willing to if needed.

The Rules ask to keep it under 2,000. 86 isn’t too much over. May I submit my slightly too long story?

Edit: 2,048 and dropping.

@Crimson Raven

Whittle down as far as you can, without compromising the overall story of course. Your entry is not far above the limit, but I would like all entries to be as close to 2000 words as possible.

[Loksfjoer]

I have 630 words
While the story is complete, based on other entries in this style it's not the kind of story to win any contests. I am working on a version of the same story that should be better received, but in case I can't complete that in time, the 630 word story it will be.

[BrokenPromise]

Maaaaan, it looks like we got sum entries. I'll have to make time to review them.

[Shienvien]

My timing these days is not good - saw the contest two days before it closed, during a very busy period. So, while I started writing on Tuesday, I never got back to finish it. Oh well, one for my short stories collection... Will comment on the entries once I have the time, which will probably be after weekend.

[The Nexerus]

Didn't end up submitting anything in time, but I'm glad so many people got interested. I look forward to reading the entries.

[NorthernKraken]

So like...what the helk did any of that have to do with a fallen hero? Or somebody doing wrong because they think it’s right? This feels like a story that doesn’t even remotely match the prompt in question…

It wasn’t a bad personal reflection story...but she isn’t a hero, nor the villain who thinks she's a hero. The father was her fallen hero, but he’s not a secret bad guy. She’s whiny and angst-filled, but her father died. She didn’t do anything wrong. The mother complex isn’t relevant to the story. Most of it really isn’t tied to the story which is seems to be a story about mourning a personal loss. So...I’m afraid I don’t see the connection.

@SleepingSilence

So, I appreciate the in depth critique in like, a really big way, and the time you took to look over everyone's work, but I do think you've misunderstood my, err, entire concept a little, so I figured I'd do a little explaining in order to clarify the relation to the prompt.

So yeah, her father is the fallen hero in this case. Throughout a lot of her childhood, he was the 'good parent' (where the mother complex comes in), and now that she's older he helped her a lot with more practical stuff, like rent and food money. But, he also had issues with alcohol, and was generally irresponsible - something that Jenny didn't really notice due to being a kid. This is hinted at in the section at the pub, and where she's reflecting on the differences between her father and her mother.

She didn't see these flaws because, y'know he was her dad and she thought he was great, until he killed someone in a drunk driving incident (the guy who's funeral she rather voyeuristically tags along to). Which idk seems pretty 'villainous' to me? It's about mourning a personal loss, yes, but it's also about that realisation that even the most important and influential figures in our lives are, ultimately, human beings, and capable of doing really awful things and causing profound tragedy. And not just on the large scale - but in the small scale - that feeling at the end that he let her down, too, just by not being there, when she'd always thought he would be.

Edit: Also thought it would be worth mentioning, but I did actually run the idea of a child realising their parent isn't the hero they once thought past Frizan, and whilst it did morph slightly since then, I was essentially given the go ahead.

[BrokenPromise]

@Frizan How long will the voting period be?

[Frizan]

@Frizan How long will the voting period be?

@BrokenPromise

I will be letting the voting period last until the end of the month. Lots of entries, and I want to give everyone that's interested ample time to give proper reviews.

[SleepingSilence]

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

So, I appreciate the in depth critique in like, a really big way, and the time you took to look over everyone's work, but I do think you've misunderstood my, err, entire concept a little, so I figured I'd do a little explaining in order to clarify the relation to the prompt.

So yeah, her father is the fallen hero in this case. Throughout a lot of her childhood, he was the 'good parent' (where the mother complex comes in), and now that she's older he helped her a lot with more practical stuff, like rent and food money. But, he also had issues with alcohol, and was generally irresponsible - something that Jenny didn't really notice due to being a kid. This is hinted at in the section at the pub, and where she's reflecting on the differences between her father and her mother.

She didn't see these flaws because, y'know he was her dad and she thought he was great, until he killed someone in a drunk driving incident (the guy who's funeral she rather voyeuristically tags along to). Which idk seems pretty 'villainous' to me? It's about mourning a personal loss, yes, but it's also about that realisation that even the most important and influential figures in our lives are, ultimately, human beings, and capable of doing really awful things and causing profound tragedy. And not just on the large scale - but in the small scale - that feeling at the end that he let her down, too, just by not being there, when she'd always thought he would be.

Edit: Also thought it would be worth mentioning, but I did actually run the idea of a child realising their parent isn't the hero they once thought past Frizan, and whilst it did morph slightly since then, I was essentially given the go ahead.

@NorthernKraken

So the father slowly became an alcoholic and caused an accident? Is that villainous? Sounds more like an unfortunate tragedy. A flawed character isn't really a villain who thinks he's a hero. He didn't do it on purpose and it doesn't seem like anything evil was done for a sense of self righteousness.

So, I might have missed that implication. I guess the element felt really downplayed if he was supposed to become a bad character through his alcoholism. Probably because he wasn't the focal character. It also seems like he hit someone no one cared about? (If that was just the main character's perspective, that exchange seemed like the least "good" action in the story.)

Yeah even with that explanation, that still really doesn't sound like it fits the prompt. Especially because I was under the impression that you were supposed to follow that character. And really if you wanted to show the father become the bad guy, he should have been the focal point character, so you would have been able to see the daughter's rose-tinted glasses and why the mother thought he was a manchild. And seeing that character struggle and thoughts and being from a perspective of someone going to the afterlife, it probably would've made a better focal character an angsty teen/adult. My two cents anyway.

Like I said I thought the story was fine. And to be fair you weren't the only one whose story I thought was a little loose on the prompt. So it probably won't matter too much in the end. I'm thankful that you give me feedback. Good luck. :3

[NorthernKraken]

@SleepingSilence I think the way you're defining villainy is awfully narrow. A villain is, essentially, someone who undertakes villainous actions. Getting in a car and driving whilst under the influence is at the very least illegal, and for good reason. The dad broke the law, that was a decision he made, regardless of the reasoning behind it. That doesn't make him a 'bad' person, but it does make him a person who did a bad thing.

When you start to think of villains as being irredeemably evil, with no positive qualities, nothing that would engender sympathy, then quite simply, you have a very boring character.

And that idea is... really not the story I wanted to tell, or, y'know I wouldve told that story. The whole purpose was to show how somebody's opinions can change, and how perspectives can be warped by age and circumstances. This is something that was explicitly allowed for in the prompt.

Feel free to write from the perspective of an outsider observing the main cast's actions. Explain what the average person might think about seeing someone they held so highly fall so low.

Ultimately, it was about perspective, and the impact this has on whether someone is a hero or not. The dad didn't 'sink into alcoholism'he always had issues with alcohol, Jenny's perspective just shifted in light of what happened. She's probably the only character in the story's universe who viewed him as a hero to begin with, hence why it is vitally important the story be told from her perspective, however angsty.

My story was far from perfect, and there are many things I would change were I to do further drafts - some of which you've touched on, and I do appreciate the discussion.

I do feel like you're judging people overly harshly for interpeting the prompt even slightly differently to you - which I think if everyone had done it how you wanted them to, we'd have an awful lot of very same-y entries, and I for one appreciated the diversity of takes on the theme, yours included.

[SleepingSilence]

@NorthernKraken Obviously it's just my perspective. Not trying to influence anyone's mind per say. I guess like I said, even from an outsiders perspective it felt like it focused on odd elements to me. But it's fair to say you don't have to be so overblown with it. Hopefully others are bound to share their feelings on it. Though in fiction, villains you can love to hate are the most popular recognizable figures in stories. Like consider Disney, or maybe horror stories, and many of their failed attempts to remake them by making a more sympathetic/grey villain. I'll admit the prompt almost seems to beg for going a little more over the top, where yours is quite subtle in comparison to everyone else's. If you think that's fair to say. Not even calling it a good or bad thing. (Personally thought it worked for the story it tried to tell. And just to note that whether stories followed the rules or how strongly it connected to the prompt didn't effect my personal ratings enough to be significant.) Guess it's just a difference of opinion how well it falls into the category.

And no story is perfect. But I hope you'll join another contest/write another story sometime. :3

[MsMorningstar]

@SleepingSilence

But you are trying to influence people's minds. Why else would you spend...I don't know, at least an hour reading and rewriting everybody's works? If you weren't trying to change people's minds and convince them that what they wrote wasn't correct (even if it's just in your opinion, as you say) then what was your aim?

I was checking up on the threads and found myself drawn to the discussion happening in this one. Hope you don't mind me butting in. Of course, no review is perfect. But I hope you continue to work on your critiques/write another in the future. UwU

[SleepingSilence]

@MsMorningstar I'm a masochist. And I have too much free time. ;D Well I'm trying to show each individual how one may see or interpret their story, or at least why I thought the way I did.

It's long because I want to explain it in a way that isn't a hollow praise that fails to point out mistakes because they obviously didn't read it. Or a vague and unspecified critique for the same reasons. What's the point of reviewing something and not doing it at least somewhat in-depth? Especially if you read something with effort, where I feel obligated to show the same courtesy. Or such lack thereof, I want to pick it apart because it's the only way to expose it to the writer. (Best disinfectant is sunlight, so they say.)

So that anyone who cares will be able to write better in the future. It also helps me learn to be a better editor and reader with practice.

And appreciate the sentiment, I do try my best...

[Loksfjoer]

It's good the voting period will last until the end of the month, because I haven't read the entries yet. But I will.

@SleepingSilence Thanks for your feedback
I will explain some things, but I will put it in a hider in case someone wants to review my story without the explanation in mind.

My reaction

What I had in mind for my story is that it could be told by someone, either by someone who witnessed it or someone who heard about the events and tells the tale to an audience. This is why the story is not told from the viewpoint of the Herovillain and why the filler pauses are there. And this is also why it starts with the city layout and the history and the people, the teller wants to situate the audience first. 'This is the city, this is how it got rich, and here is the one we will be talking about'.

I know that Pickpockets, Purse snatchers and Thieves are pretty much the same thing, but they all steal in a different way. This is more to illustrate that pockets were picked, purses were cut and things being stolen. And I thought it gave it more of a 'told story feeling'.

"is this the most eventful part of your character's life?" "If no, why aren't you showing that."
Becoming a city guard and defeating barbarians is probably a highlight of sir Morgon's life, but the purpose of the tale is more to discuss morals, do people agree or disagree with sir Morgon, do they think he did good or evil. Is he still a hero or is he a villain?
Which is why I stopped before the story would turn into a rebellion against him and him probably being killed at the end for his misdeeds against the people he was supposed to protect.

The Rebellion of Ostagon would be another story, or part 2 of the Tale of Ostagon, where it's shown that regardless of the opinions of the audience, the citizens considered him evil.

And then part 3 could look at the results of the rebellion: will it benefit the city or will they succumb to theft and murder and the lawlessness sir Morgon thought would happen? And the story in which the future of sir Morgon arrives would focus on different morals than what we needed for this competition: what is and isn't allowed to do when you are trying to survive.

Anyway, back to your review.

The 'it' when referring to the boy was intentional. Showing, as you said, the dehumanizing sir Morgon goes through. They are criminals, not people, and he will not stand for lawlessness.

It's great you liked the last sentence, I'm pleased with the ending myself. I usually don't do endings well, I've had feedback before stating 'if you had stopped here it would have been a more powerful ending', which is another reason why I didn't elaborate on the events after that. I wanted to end strong.

That being said, I would like to talk about your edit if that's okay, feedback on your version of my story if you will :)

You wrote "the main streets were filled with tailors, goldsmiths, glassblower, artists, pastry bakers and everyone had ample choice (...)", it gives the impression there are tailors, goldsmiths, etc, walking on the street, instead of being in shops located at the main streets.

And with your suggestion to remove 'at' and 'itself' from "At the junction itself was the oldest inn of the city," you will get "the junction was the oldest inn of the city", which you incorporated in your suggested edit. But, it suggests the name of the inn is the junction. Using 'at' places the inn at the junction.

Your suggestion of "The good people of Ostagon had fewer travelling there and trading or buying goods" feels a bit off, and Grammarly also gave it a red line, with the explanation: "Incorrect quantifier with uncountable noun: it appears that the quantifier fewer does not fit with the uncountable noun travelling. Consider changing it."
I think fewer people would be better in this case, but I'm by no means a grammar expert (I actually had less first, but then I learned it had to be fewer instead)

That being said, I will consider all the changes you suggested and I thank you for your detailed feedback. Some of the suggestions you made are definitely an improvement.