The Draw of Nation Roleplay.

[DELETEDUSER007]

>Or, rather, what is the draw? I have some guesses already, from it being a more detailed and freeform way to flesh out your nation/polity, to exploring certain ideas but in relation to others. My question at that point though is one, why not just play an empire building game? And two, why not just worldbuild a whole nation from said game or from scratch? You can worry about the exact setting later after all, or not at all if it's largely inconsequential or not the main focus, or already taken care of in the case of a grand strategy game.

>Finally, I don't bring this up out of a desire to change people's role-playing habits, merely to understand what the draw to NRP is specifically when other equally viable alternatives exist - beyond the obvious answer of, "because I wanted to," of course.

>Because one can use that for literally anything from serial killing to baking.

>I want to understand the reasoning behind the choice in other words. The reasoning behind the draw.

[BrokenPromise]

I'm by no means an expert but I have participated in one or two in the past. I'm sure the nation RP people will swing by in time to give more educated opinions. But when you RP for an entire nation you are usually writing for important groups in that nation. As an example if I were writing for a nation of fantasy elves I could write about the king/queen, an army general, a soldier in one of the general's armies, whatever passes for a police officer in their society, a mayor, and a hunter that just wants to live their life. The difference between writing from the perspective of a single character and that of a nation is that the posts in a nation RP tend to be centered more around what the nation is doing and giving you an idea of what being in that nation is like for everyone. You could technically write from a different person's perspective every post, but I think most choose to write from the same few perspectives to help round out their nation's narrative and also build some interest in the characters.

It's also not exclusively worldbuilding. When nations go to war with each other, trade with each other, or compete with each other for resources, there's opportunity for interaction and change. There are more examples I could give here but that's the gist of it. It's a bit more than just fleshing out a world.

Not all nation RPs have you playing a nation. Some nation RPs focus on smaller groups like ships filled with pirates, corporations, gangs, things like that. Though you could also go the other way and have various worlds that are watched over by various gods.

So the draw is that you can play as a large group of people from various walks of life and adress problems from various angles. In a normal fantasy setting I would have to play the hero, but now I can play as several adventurers, the merchants that supply them, the quest givers that pay them, and even the villains that challenge them. And how each of their operations can be changed by global politics. Imagine your nation has a steel shortage and is unable to procure more from their neighboring nations. The adventurers might be able to make due for a little while but what policies will the king going to put in place to ensure steel levels will return to normal? How will the merchants ensure they can still make ends meet? Will quest givers even want to hire adventurers who can't maintain their metal gear? Will wizards start demanding higher prices now that those with metal weapons are becoming more scarce? Perhaps foreign adventurers will become a more common sight as they rush to fill the void created by a lack of new local adventurers, unable to take up swords?

[BangoSkank]

>Or, rather, what is the draw? I have some guesses already, from it being a more detailed and freeform way to flesh out your nation/polity, to exploring certain ideas but in relation to others. My question at that point though is one, why not just play an empire building game? And two, why not just worldbuild a whole nation from said game or from scratch? You can worry about the exact setting later after all, or not at all if it's largely inconsequential or not the main focus, or already taken care of in the case of a grand strategy game.

So there are basically three common, or at least in my experience common, sort of genres of RP. Character, Faction and Nation.

Character Based.
Most common here and most common in most places. You write as one single character. Sometimes you write as two or three, rarely more than that. You make a Character Sheet for that one character, or one each for several characters. 1x1 usually falls into that, though it doesn't have to.
This is Doctor Murrow, the depressed doctor trying to make it through a disaster and keep as many of his fellow men alive as possible.

Faction Based.
You write as a relatively small faction. Usually without a real formal limitation but usually ranging from like 10-100. You make a Faction Sheet explaining what this group believes, why they're together, what they're after and what they're going to do to get what they're after.
This is the Followers of the Apocalypse. A bunch of survivors in the aftermath of The Big One. They're trying to take control of as many military installations as possible to prevent their weapons from being used against any survivors...but probably gradually giving in to the appeal of power themselves.

Nation RP
You write as a big fuck of a Nation. Depending on the timeline and setting hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands. Even millions if you're doing SciFi or like Peak Civilization Fantasy. Your writing is establishing your politics. Military, leadership, hopefully alternate leadership like another political party.
This is the Western Commonwealth of the United States. The states of the Pacific Northwest coming together with Texas and Arizona, moving into Nevada and Utah and looking East to expand further. Utilizing simpler weaponry and masses of transport vehicles from seized military bases to quickly push their boundaries outward.

I don't like Nation RPs.

They're fun, in theory, because you can use it to tell stories in your own small world and then have occasional interactions with other folks worlds. If I'm that Southwestern States and you're Midwestern States we will eventually meet somewhere in the bordering areas.

You're likely writing as several characters. A President or Prime Minister or small Parliament. An opposing political party in your own nation. General common citizen characters. Maybe a military hero with aspirations of becoming president himself one day.

So most of the time you are either expanding, shoring up after encountering something while expanding, investing into some technology, or maybe fighting your own political battles.

They can be awesome. I just find that often the writers end up loving their main characters or entire nations too much and it becomes a convention of Mary Sues.

Conventions are a common trope in these RPs too. Annual, usually, meetings where delegations from each nation get together to meet each other and brag about what they've done. Could be really cool, could be a not particularly subtle dick measuring contest. You know, politics.

[DELETEDUSER007]

<Snipped quote>

So there are basically three common, or at least in my experience common, sort of genres of RP. Character, Faction and Nation.

Character Based.
Most common here and most common in most places. You write as one single character. Sometimes you write as two or three, rarely more than that. You make a Character Sheet for that one character, or one each for several characters. 1x1 usually falls into that, though it doesn't have to.
This is Doctor Murrow, the depressed doctor trying to make it through a disaster and keep as many of his fellow men alive as possible.

Faction Based.
You write as a relatively small faction. Usually without a real formal limitation but usually ranging from like 10-100. You make a Faction Sheet explaining what this group believes, why they're together, what they're after and what they're going to do to get what they're after.
This is the Followers of the Apocalypse. A bunch of survivors in the aftermath of The Big One. They're trying to take control of as many military installations as possible to prevent their weapons from being used against any survivors...but probably gradually giving in to the appeal of power themselves.

Nation RP
You write as a big fuck of a Nation. Depending on the timeline and setting hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands. Even millions if you're doing SciFi or like Peak Civilization Fantasy. Your writing is establishing your politics. Military, leadership, hopefully alternate leadership like another political party.
This is the Western Commonwealth of the United States. The states of the Pacific Northwest coming together with Texas and Arizona, moving into Nevada and Utah and looking East to expand further. Utilizing simpler weaponry and masses of transport vehicles from seized military bases to quickly push their boundaries outward.

I don't like Nation RPs.

They're fun, in theory, because you can use it to tell stories in your own small world and then have occasional interactions with other folks worlds. If I'm that Southwestern States and you're Midwestern States we will eventually meet somewhere in the bordering areas.

You're likely writing as several characters. A President or Prime Minister or small Parliament. An opposing political party in your own nation. General common citizen characters. Maybe a military hero with aspirations of becoming president himself one day.

So most of the time you are either expanding, shoring up after encountering something while expanding, investing into some technology, or maybe fighting your own political battles.

They can be awesome. I just find that often the writers end up loving their main characters or entire nations too much and it becomes a convention of Mary Sues.

Conventions are a common trope in these RPs too. Annual, usually, meetings where delegations from each nation get together to meet each other and brag about what they've done. Could be really cool, could be a not particularly subtle dick measuring contest. You know, politics.

@BangoSkank

>Just like real life. Though you and Broken both make good points. On the one hand, I can see how it goes beyond worldbuilding, although that's not to say you can't just worldbuild more events in the nation's future or write short stories from different characters perspectives. Yeah it takes a lot of work, but so does worldbuilding or writing any halfway compelling story. On the other, it can fall to dick measuring, and at that point I cite my grand strategy game question. If you want that level of progress in a--let's face it--usually far fairer environment, then a game with carefully balanced mechanics is probably a better way to go. And it gives the dopamine hit of progress without necessarily having to step on anyone's toes intent-wise. Or having to worry about being out-teched.

>Well... most of the time anyway.

[BangoSkank]

Yeah you definitely benefit a lot from writing/playing with folks who don't just want to be the strongest on the board.

If I were to GM one again, I haven't GMed a Nation or Faction RP in a long time I would probably include a Strengths and Weaknesses tab in each descriptor

Like Military/Politics/Economy/Science!

Have folks explain either to the group or at least to the GM what they can see going wrong or what would cripple them, and come to an understanding with them that if they get too powerful issues will start popping up.

Done that a few times.

Political betrayal, appearance of Tunnelers (Fallout series monster), looming threat of a huge GM controlled army that was poking around at one border.

Can be fun to create a bit of a back and forth between the GMs and the players too.

Example

Faction not Nation but...

Sunshine State. A Fallout RP.
IIRC threats were Original Mean Greedy Fuck Brotherhood of Steel coming from Georgia to claim all tech. Supermutants in the middle. Bayou Lizard things in the South. A farming conglomerate trying to monopolize the market in the middle.

All the groups except the Brotherhood were player controlled, and I used BoS to create a sort of driving threat moving North to South and then occasionally along the coastline.

Just like in Character Based RPs the fun comes from seeing good writers develop their ideas and characters and this develop their writing. Sometimes Nation RPs last a looooooong ass time too. There was one here that lasted I want to say a year or two and still gets started over or little sequels every so often. War, war never changes.

[Yam I Am]

>My question at that point though is one, why not just play an empire building game?

@Zyx

If you wanna RP as an anime knight, why not just play Final Fantasy 14?

If you wanna RP as an action movie crime lord, why not just play Saint's Row or GTA Online?

If you wanna RP as a sports star sensation, why not just play Madden or FIFA?

If you wanna RP as a fantasy adventuring rogue, why not just play Skyrim?

If you wanna RP as a country, culture, language, and history that you have to create and do a bunch of research for, why not just write a book?

On the other, it can fall to dick measuring, and at that point I cite my grand strategy game question. If you want that level of progress in a--let's face it--usually far fairer environment, then a game with carefully balanced mechanics is probably a better way to go. And it gives the dopamine hit of progress without necessarily having to step on anyone's toes intent-wise.

@Zyx

Two key points here, one per statement:

1) Dick-measuring contests are the stuff that politics and plots are made of. It's all dick-measuring. If there weren't any, and everyone was smart and rational and nobody was stupid or petty or incompetent or jealous, then it'd be a really boring state of affairs. The best part about dick-measuring contests is that usually what ends up happening is that nobody ends up actually pulling out their dick, out of fear that their opponent actually has the bigger dick - just like in real life. Getting your toes stepped on is just part of politicking: It's how you deal with your boo-boos that drive the plots forward, and it's easy to forget that sometimes. You will rarely ever be able to get all that you want, and its part of the development of the plot - goals, aims, dreams, ambitions, all crashing headlong into reality as you have to face the inconvenient truth and decide how you want any of this to be incorporated...if it even can. But it's all those wants and desires - and why we can't have them - that make plots. And plots make for stories.

2) Strategy games aren't balanced, even by their developers' own admission. Why? Because nations aren't balanced. Perfectly-balanced nations isn't even a desirable goal by any stretch of the imagination: All that really tends to do is leave a staleness that makes it difficult to really maneuver around. A country like Bulgaria or Syria, no matter how hard they try, just aren't going to out-punch someone in industry or economy or military might like China or the USA. So they have to get crafty and use what they've got. Start using connections and find out just that little competitive edge that they have that they can use as leverage, maybe get a few good friends on the side. Maybe some of those friends don't like some of your other friends, so you have to play a game of negotiation and placation, and compromise with all of them until either you reach some sort of agreement or you just have to get on one side of the fence or the other.

The overarching theme here is that it's all give-and-take.

You know, it's really funny seeing all of the points of conflict in NRP being brought up: They're all beginner's traps of Nation RP. Superpower Gary Stu nation? Pure beginner's trap - it's pretty common assumption that it's way better to make a country that is, at the start of the game, undergoing some manner of instability, crisis, or is otherwise in some undesirable situation and work towards it.

Let's just start this all up - think of this as kindergarden of NRP basics. Nation RP is easily the most detail-oriented type of RP you can do. There's so many moving parts to any organization that it can get mind-bogglingly complex that you could never reasonably hope to get any or all of it completely on your CS before you start writing posts. And some people never even get that far. And it usually comes down to research: A whole lotta research. And for a lot of people, doing that much legwork isn't something they're really into. Keep in mind, it's perfectly normal for the nation to not be 100% developed before the game starts, but as situations and ideas come up, you gradually do more and more research, tack on ideas here and there, and really flesh it out more and more as you think about things you didn't have to earlier.

You know...kinda like a regular character RP.

Which is kind of the elephant in the room anytime NRP gets brought up. People seem to forget that Nation Roleplays...are roleplays. Just because you slap "nation" on it and maybe expand the scope of what you're writing doesn't just slap away all of the other problems that you can encounter anywhere else: In basically any other kind of roleplaying, you'll get all these same problems - undependable posters, Mary Sue/OP characters, drama, unreasonable demands, lore disputes, et cetera.

But the concept of the entire country at play offers a whole level of creative freedom and possibility for interaction that i've never been able to get in any other kind of roleplay.

And when all that legwork finally all comes together and you and your RP group are filling out ideas, and it's all now in motion...just a sudden spark of imagination sets off a chain of ideas - ideas that turn into whole plots, motivations, intrigues, and you spend the next 2 hours talking over just the possibilities alone. You know how character RPs can utterly sparkle when you finally get to delve deep into their psychologies? Nation RP does that - but for sociology, history, military science, art, architecture, music, and so, so so much more.

And when that all happens, the world you've spent so much time together creating with you and your friends just completely comes alive. It's like turning the lights on in your basement and you find an old Christmas present that your parents just forgot to take up one year, and you unwrap it and like you somehow forgot, you re-discover what it means to let your imagination run wild. You get completely lost in it, where it almost seems real. And even with all of this coming together - a country's culture, it's people, it's art, what they eat for breakfast, how they look at the news in the morning, and all those people living, breathing, being in this own space sets off something in the back of your mind, like it's a dream that's just too vivid to ever forget.

It's time when you are master of the universe. As you staying ageless and motionless before your computer, flying untouched over human frenzy, where cities rise and crumble under my thumb, tiny people ran hurriedly to their lives and deaths on the roads you built, and time flew and froze at your command.

Then it all stopped, and you have to become one of those running specks. They call it life.

And that feeling is so good, so great, so utterly fucking wonderfully intoxicatingly Kafkaesque that you will bitch and moan and fight and argue over and over and over again with 100 different groups over 10 years over the most minute details...just to get there again. And it's the best feeling in the whole fucking world.

[DELETEDUSER007]

If you wanna RP as an anime knight, why not just play Final Fantasy 14?

If you wanna RP as an action movie crime lord, why not just play Saint's Row or GTA Online?

If you wanna RP as a sports star sensation, why not just play Madden or FIFA?

If you wanna RP as a fantasy adventuring rogue, why not just play Skyrim?

If you wanna RP as a country, culture, language, and history that you have to create and do a bunch of research for, why not just write a book?

Yam I Am

>To address these questions, this is exactly what I do. Well aside from Madden as I just don't like EA. But generally I do just play a game, such as Skyrim as has been mentioned, or make up stories in my head or worldbuild. And arguably I get more progress doing that than I would roleplaying as roleplays--due to their nature--have a habit of either dying or becoming a source of lost motivation. That and for the last question I'd prefer that personally because it would give me more ability to pursue whatever my vision is without stepping on other people's toes.

>These are the reasons why I myself don't do NRP, and have only barely gotten back into character RP outside of 1x1's. Because it's often more creatively freeing if I either write it all myself or play a game and then write a story or lore or AU myself. But I do see what you mean, and how RP serves as an outlet for some when things such as games or solo projects simply won't or can't do according to personal preference.

>Moving on to the second part, I see what you mean. And while I can't say I necessarily agree with some parts of it, I am not here to start disputes but to receive reasonings and I must say that yours are quite enlightening as to the draw for NRP. And that yes, NRP is just a roleplay like any other, though just like any other those questions I've asked still exist. They just didn't get brought to the forefront of my mind since I already know the reasons as to why people play them. Which I couldn't say for NRP beyond a few inklings until now.

[Yam I Am]

>To address these questions, this is exactly what I do. Well aside from Madden as I just don't like EA. But generally I do just play a game, such as Skyrim as has been mentioned, or make up stories in my head or worldbuild. And arguably I get more progress doing that than I would roleplaying as roleplays--due to their nature--have a habit of either dying or becoming a source of lost motivation. That and for the last question I'd prefer that personally because it would give me more ability to pursue whatever my vision is without stepping on other people's toes.

>These are the reasons why I myself don't do NRP, and have only barely gotten back into character RP outside of 1x1's. Because it's often more creatively freeing if I either write it all myself or play a game and then write a story or lore or AU myself. But I do see what you mean, and how RP serves as an outlet for some when things such as games or solo projects simply won't or can't do according to personal preference.

@Zyx

...this is more just a statement on the fundamentals of what makes roleplaying as a hobby enjoyable than any specific statement on Nation RP. Like, it's all about cooperation - give and take, like I said earlier. If that just doesn't mesh or if you feel like it's a hassle to how your creative process works, nobody's gonna judge you on that. But cooperating with other players isn't anything unique to NRP...that's just Roleplaying Basics 101. And if that's just something you don't want to deal with for one reason or another, then that's fine.

NRPs go and die just like casual or advanced or 1x1 RPs do, and there's no magical sticking point that will just make players stay around just because there's "nation" or "advanced" attached to it.

[DELETEDUSER007]

<Snipped quote by Zyx>

...this is more just a statement on the fundamentals of what makes roleplaying as a hobby enjoyable than any specific statement on Nation RP. Like, it's all about cooperation - give and take, like I said earlier. If that just doesn't mesh or if you feel like it's a hassle to how your creative process works, nobody's gonna judge you on that. But cooperating with other players isn't anything unique to NRP...that's just Roleplaying Basics 101. And if that's just something you don't want to deal with for one reason or another, then that's fine.

NRPs go and die just like casual or advanced or 1x1 RPs do, and there's no magical sticking point that will just make players stay around just because there's "nation" or "advanced" attached to it.

@Yam I Am

>I see.

>I would say more, but I'm not sure what more needs to be said on my behalf at this juncture. Other than that I suppose I assumed more cooperation given the nature of the roleplay. It seems to be one thing to make a character and plan out events in advance, but another to essentially take several disconnected and individual nation concepts and then write them all in a single setting, while also ensuring they mesh well. It reminded me of collaborative worldbuilding more than RP I guess.

[BangoSkank]

There needs to be a level of cooperation in order for competition to be interesting, at least to me.

Poor two second analogy, but I have to be willing to admit you hit me in the head. I didn't block it. I didnt tense me neck muscles at just the right time to absorb the force. I didn't open my mouth and bite your fist at the last second. I'm not actually a master of the Iron Jaw technique and therefore you didn't actually just break your own fist in my face.

You got me. It hurt. I'm probably bleeding. My bell is a little rung. I'm gonna have to adapt. I wasn't ready for that. Fucking ouch man. Damn.

[DELETEDUSER007]

There needs to be a level of cooperation in order for competition to be interesting, at least to me.

Poor two second analogy, but I have to be willing to admit you hit me in the head. I didn't block it. I didnt tense me neck muscles at just the right time to absorb the force. I didn't open my mouth and bite your fist at the last second. I'm not actually a master of the Iron Jaw technique and therefore you didn't actually just break your own fist in my face.

You got me. It hurt. I'm probably bleeding. My bell is a little rung. I'm gonna have to adapt. I wasn't ready for that. Fucking ouch man. Damn.

@BangoSkank

>True, although I do think having a plan for scenes on top of that would help as well. That way you actually know which way the plot is going to go rather than just making up in the moment.

[Sierra]

There needs to be a level of cooperation in order for competition to be interesting, at least to me.

Poor two second analogy, but I have to be willing to admit you hit me in the head. I didn't block it. I didnt tense me neck muscles at just the right time to absorb the force. I didn't open my mouth and bite your fist at the last second. I'm not actually a master of the Iron Jaw technique and therefore you didn't actually just break your own fist in my face.

You got me. It hurt. I'm probably bleeding. My bell is a little rung. I'm gonna have to adapt. I wasn't ready for that. Fucking ouch man. Damn.

@BangoSkank

A concept oft' forgotten in non dice-driven roleplaying, and in my limited experience even moreso in nation roleplay. Characters are the lovechild of their creators and we typically desire to protect them, this extending to even falling into one's own little nationalism for their fictitious world. Even I am not immune from faltering as such, and I don't look back on some of my older writing fondly for precisely that reason.

Its pertinent to remember that the goals of the players should never be in opposition, even if the goals of nations or factions or characters are. The goal of the players is always to tell a compelling story and that means the outcome of conflict should be whatever option drives the narrative in the most compelling way.