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Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheEvanCat
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TheUnknowable said
His conversation skills are a bit rusty. Ok, bad pun.He's just not a good conversationalist, since he's running a program that only behaves enough like a human enough to sound human 17% of the time.


We send you to the jail for bad puns. It's your punishment.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheLonePup
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WittyReference said
Ohhh, I thought she was working the Animal Friend angle; that's why I mentioned how Scrap felt less likely to rip her head off than the others as per the perk :p


He's not an animal though >.>

But Ellie's high intelligence (even though her charisma is average, which is why she talks like a raider >.>) allowed her to realize "hey, everybody around here treats him like shit, I should be on his good side so that when te bullets tart flying or I have. Deathclaw chasing my ass he won't be worried about protectin the other asshples and will protect the only one who was nice to him"

That's why she is trying to befriend him, plus he absolutely fascinates her because she's neve seen someone THAT mutated other than the few trogs that roam around the Mill and he can at least speak so it shows he's much more intelligent (on top of the fact it's hard to be any dumber)
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by WittyReference
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Maybe they'll find a nice centaur to adopt.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by WittyReference
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I think I've extended things with Scrap's antics as much as I can until Atomic comes back. If someone else wants to make a scene though feel free and I'll react accordingly.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by WittyReference
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Double Post
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheLonePup
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WittyReference said
I think I've extended things with Scrap's antics as much as I can until Atomic comes back. If someone else wants to make a scene though feel free and I'll react accordingly.


you could reply to the robot and medic that are talking to him
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by WittyReference
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Well yeah but that would fall under the category of antics since anything I write would just be Scrap getting upset they got a second mechanic to work over his shoulder, dig? Of course that's not the case but, pretty much tired of their shit already, Scrap would see it as the humans belittling his skills.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheEvanCat
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WittyReference said
Maybe they'll find a nice centaur to adopt.


I'd nope the fuck right out of there.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheUnknowable
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I forgot to weigh in on the line we should go down first. I say the southernmost one, as I'm thinking up stuff to put in Atlanta. They'll have a bit of agriculture and a Nuka-cola plant making carbonated fruit juice as the first "city", a communist Southern Baptist Mega-church society as one, and Underground, a typical subway system city where ghouls are the only people that can go topside because everyone else would be hideously irradiated. Also, a giant Enclave base.

WittyReference said
Well yeah but that would fall under the category of antics since anything I write would just be Scrap getting upset they got a second mechanic to work over his shoulder, dig? Of course that's not the case but, pretty much tired of their shit already, Scrap would see it as the humans belittling his skills.


Not belittling. Zero knows what to salvage and has some idea where to find it, but his carry weight is so long he can't salvage anything. Also, he knows the proper way to do things, but Scrap would be better at improvisation (kind of the difference between a formal education and on the job training). The problem would be explaining that to him.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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TheLonePup said
He's not an animal though >.>But Ellie's high intelligence (even though her charisma is average, which is why she talks like a raider >.>) allowed her to realize "hey, everybody around here treats him like shit, I should be on his good side so that when te bullets tart flying or I have. Deathclaw chasing my ass he won't be worried about protectin the other asshples and will protect the only one who was nice to him"That's why she is trying to befriend him, plus he absolutely fascinates her because she's neve seen someone THAT mutated other than the few trogs that roam around the Mill and he can at least speak so it shows he's much more intelligent (on top of the fact it's hard to be any dumber)


Mechanically Intelligence only goes as far as technical knowledge with benefits to the Science skill and extra experience points gained, or additional skill points to allocate on a level up.

Outside of game mechanics high-intelligence characters doesn't mean that their IQ translates well into street smarts. You can have a really bright and sharp character, or be that type, but you could be as dumb as a rock when it comes to personal interaction and picking up on social queues. As a off-the-top-of-my-head example: Spencer Reed off of Criminal Minds would be just that. Guy's character is Einstein 2.0 but he wouldn't be able to tell if you're either teasing a person or being genuinely offensive, he's a social retard.

One might say he's "autistic" and watch him fumble with it trying to point out it's a broad mis-diagnosis and makes the insult even more fitting.

I guess ultimately in the end I can refute that statement. You could certainly make the claim but without good people skills to compliment high intelligence I don't think a person would be able to pick up on and decide to go against the direction of social shit unless they got a moral compass that says it's wrong always, period. But then that begs a whole other series of questions. I can't see a person of average social intelligence leveraging the situation like Petyr Baelish.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Terminal
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Also, a giant Enclave base.


Yeah no thanks.

We already spoke about this earlier in the thread, and I can agree that it is entirely possible for the Enclave to have isolated pockets of small bunkers and facilities scattered about in remote locations, with the possibility of there being actual bases to the North in Canada. But after the events of the Fallout games, the main Enclave bases of operation across East, Central, and Western America have been stomped flat and their primary leadership candidates obliterated. As was demonstrated in New Vegas, most organized forces - the NCR, the Brotherhood of Steel, etcetera - all have shoot on sight policies regarding Enclave. Finally, recordings by Enclave technicians in the Divide show that there are no remaining active bases responding to radio hails during the events of Broken Steel and afterwards.

I don't mind there being individual scattered Enclave Remnants. There were at least eight in New Vegas alone. I do object to the presence of a 'Giant Enclave Base' on the grounds that it's patently improbable, and also because the Enclave in general are a massive plot tumor who don't have a place in a story like this one. :/

On the other hand, if someone can tell me why it might be possible for aforementioned giant base to exist, I suppose I could grudgingly go along with it.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheUnknowable
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Terminal said
Yeah no thanks.We already spoke about this earlier in the thread, and I can agree that it is entirely possible for the Enclave to have isolated pockets of small bunkers and facilities scattered about in remote locations, with the possibility of there being actual bases to the North in Canada. But after the events of the Fallout games, the main Enclave bases of operation across East, Central, and Western America have been stomped flat and their primary leadership candidates obliterated. As was demonstrated in New Vegas, most organized forces - the NCR, the Brotherhood of Steel, etcetera - all have shoot on sight policies regarding Enclave. Finally, recordings by Enclave technicians in the Divide show that there are no remaining active bases responding to radio hails during the events of Broken Steel and afterwards.I don't mind there being individual scattered Enclave Remnants. There were at least eight in New Vegas alone. I do object to the presence of a 'Giant Enclave Base' on the grounds that it's patently improbable, and also because the Enclave in general are a massive plot tumor who don't have a place in a story like this one. :/On the other hand, if someone can tell me why it might be possible for aforementioned giant base to exist, I suppose I could grudgingly go along with it.


I never heard of any of that.
I need a base there as it's a part of my bio, but I can make it a small group of survivors trying to rebuild. Maybe they're teamed up with the commu-baptists or something.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheEvanCat
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TheUnknowable said
I never heard of any of that.I need a base there as it's a part of my bio, but I can make it a small group of survivors trying to rebuild. Maybe they're teamed up with the commu-baptists or something.


Enclave wouldn't team up with the Commies. They're the continuation of the US Government, so that'll naturally result in a hatred of Communism.

I haven't brought it up here but Fox embodied this when he consistently called Kiril a "Commie Russian" as an insult.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheLonePup
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Dinh AaronMk said
Mechanically Intelligence only goes as far as technical knowledge with benefits to the Science skill and extra experience points gained, or additional skill points to allocate on a level up.Outside of game mechanics high-intelligence characters doesn't mean that their IQ translates well into street smarts. You can have a really bright and sharp character, or be that type, but you could be as dumb as a rock when it comes to personal interaction and picking up on social queues. As a off-the-top-of-my-head example: Spencer Reed off of Criminal Minds would be just that. Guy's character is Einstein 2.0 but he wouldn't be able to tell if you're either teasing a person or being genuinely offensive, he's a social retard.One might say he's "autistic" and watch him fumble with it trying to point out it's a broad mis-diagnosis and makes the insult even more fitting.I guess ultimately in the end I can refute that statement. You could certainly make the claim but without good people skills to compliment high intelligence I don't think a person would be able to pick up on and decide to go against the direction of social shit unless they got a moral compass that says it's wrong always, period. But then that begs a whole other series of questions. I can't see a person of average social intelligence leveraging the situation like Petyr Baelish.


She doesn't have horrible Charisma, so she wouldn't be autistic, and the fact she's a raider would translate the intelligence into street smarts.

Since there is no wisdom stat we can't go into the argument "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it into a fruit salad" and Intelligence would have to count for both.

Now if I had tanked her charisma stat like I had intended to, then she would have been unable to relate to anybody and would speak like a machine: "Just focus on something other than the pain and you'll be fine, we do not have the med-X to spare, I apologize"

rather than "Suck it the fuck up ya' pussy I'm almost done, I ain't wasting Med-X on your dumb ass."

Plus there's a lot of other factors besides just stats. There's upbringing and culture to take into account. While the NCR with it's actual production of supplies has plenty of resources and is a widespread, developed group they would be much more formal than my character from the Pitt, seeing as even though it's been about 20 years, they're still more than refined raiders all concentrated in one area.

WittyReference said
Well yeah but that would fall under the category of antics since anything I write would just be Scrap getting upset they got a second mechanic to work over his shoulder, dig? Of course that's not the case but, pretty much tired of their shit already, Scrap would see it as the humans belittling his skills.


Well then do that so I'm not stuck waiting for him to answer my question -.-
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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TheLonePup said
She doesn't have horrible Charisma, so she wouldn't be autistic, and the fact she's a raider would translate the intelligence into street smarts. Since there is no wisdom stat we can't go into the argument "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it into a fruit salad" and Intelligence would have to count for both.Now if I had tanked her charisma stat like I had intended to, then she would have been unable to relate to anybody and would speak like a machine: "Just focus on something other than the pain and you'll be fine, we do not have the med-X to spare, I apologize" rather than "Suck it the fuck up ya' pussy I'm almost done, I ain't wasting Med-X on your dumb ass."Plus there's a lot of other factors besides just stats. There's upbringing and culture to take into account. While the NCR with it's actual production of supplies has plenty of resources and is a widespread, developed group they would be much more formal than my character from the Pitt, seeing as even though it's been about 20 years, they're still more than refined raiders all concentrated in one area.


Of course, but when stats are pointed out in regards to this I can't help but point out that intelligence =/= sociability. Even in Fallout intelligence doesn't get one to pass speech checks, unless otherwise tagged; but that's to pass a speech check with the character's natural scientific knowledge.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheEvanCat
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TheLonePup said
She doesn't have horrible Charisma, so she wouldn't be autistic, and the fact she's a raider would translate the intelligence into street smarts. Since there is no wisdom stat we can't go into the argument "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it into a fruit salad" and Intelligence would have to count for both.Now if I had tanked her charisma stat like I had intended to, then she would have been unable to relate to anybody and would speak like a machine: "Just focus on something other than the pain and you'll be fine, we do not have the med-X to spare, I apologize" rather than "Suck it the fuck up ya' pussy I'm almost done, I ain't wasting Med-X on your dumb ass."Plus there's a lot of other factors besides just stats. There's upbringing and culture to take into account. While the NCR with it's actual production of supplies has plenty of resources and is a widespread, developed group they would be much more formal than my character from the Pitt, seeing as even though it's been about 20 years, they're still more than refined raiders all concentrated in one area.Well then do that so I'm not stuck waiting for him to answer my question -.-


Or how about we stop going based on stats and just write the damn character according to what you want to write.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by WittyReference
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TheEvanCat said
Or how about we stop going based on stats and just write the damn character according to what you want to write.


Paging Dinh AaronMk
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheLonePup
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Dinh AaronMk said
Of course, but when stats are pointed out in regards to this I can't help but point out that intelligence =/= sociability. Even in Fallout intelligence doesn't get one to pass speech checks, unless otherwise tagged; but that's to pass a speech check with the character's natural scientific knowledge.


I'm not arguing that intelligence had anything to do with her people skills. I said it had to do with how she decided to take a liking to the mutant and try to stay on his good side. she has an average charisma, so she's not awesome with people, but neither is she horrible.

TheEvanCat said
Or how about we stop going based on stats and just write the damn character according to what you want to write.


I want to write god.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by TheUnknowable
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TheEvanCat said
Enclave wouldn't team up with the Commies. They're the continuation of the US Government, so that'll naturally result in a hatred of Communism.I haven't brought it up here but Fox embodied this when he consistently called Kiril a "Commie Russian" as an insult.


Isn't the enclave basically fascists? Anyway, I was thinking more of that they conquered them, then let them run themselves in exchange for "taxes." Of course, they would have to be pretty weak to get conquered, but they are pretty much a cult without fighters except a few security people loyal to the leader. They expand through bringing in people and brainwashing them, not through military strength or by simply defending their own and naturally growing. (think fundamentalist Mormon compounds)
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Terminal
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In my personal opinion, attribute and skill systems are things that are only used in order to make a game playable - They have no purpose to exist, except to facilitate the instance of playing the game. Since one presumes when playing a game that it was designed with a difficulty and balance curve, this means there must be limits placed upon both any existing attribute and skill system. This is no less true in a game like Dungeons and Dragons or what you have.

There are two notable problems with such an arrangement. In real life, there is considerable variation amongst human 'attributes' to the degree that it is, in fact, entirely impossible to constrain the notion of human intelligence within the confines of a 10 point scale. It simply doesn't work, because intelligence in particular is a relative term. If we define it simply as capability to understand, integrate, and adapt to new ideas and concepts, then many people who might be considered reasonably intelligent otherwise become gibbering morons, and drooling imbeciles are ranked as geniuses because they can accept things that a reasonable person would have trouble accepting. If we define intelligence through I.Q., or a general aptitude test that ranks intellect based on visual recognition skills, mathematical ability, situational awareness, etcetera, then conventionally intelligent people become the new dumb compared to everyone with extenuating circumstances who excel in particular areas and blah blah blah blah

The point being that intelligence is a series of hills and valleys that people walk through and while it can be statistically measured in terms of variances or agreed upon measurements, a single point score in an attribute system cannot begin to even approximate the concept.

A similar problem presents itself with charisma (are we pretty or simply eloquent? Perhaps we're a hideous mutant with powerful aphrodisiac pheromones? Maybe people like us for our sunny disposition? Perhaps our INTELLECT is what makes us charismatic?), endurance (endurance, stamina, vigor, willpower, hardiness, resilience, toughness, fitness, etcet), and in fact every other attribute.

If you're still with me, I am now getting to the point. :P

In Fallout, the Attribute system does literally nothing but allow you to pass a few speech checks, determines starting skill points, and adds bonus points to particular skills, full stop. That is literally all they do (barring 'accessory' functions like how many implants you can receive in New Vegas). The Skill system is massively biased towards high intelligence since that means more skill points, but ultimately even a low-performance autistic with an intelligence of 1 can still max out skill scores.

If one entirely ignores the attribute system and ONLY looks at skills, things seem to make a lot more sense. The skills themselves do not raise any of the same conflicting questions that the Attribute scores do. "How can I have maxed out speech and barter if I have an intelligence and charisma skills of one?" The answer is: Attributes do not reflect who you are. They reflect how difficult it was for you to become who you are.

In Development Psychology there is a term called 'Canalization,' accompanied with the metaphor of a ball bearing rolling down an inclination or a groove on a hill. Because of gravity and the shape of the groove, there is very strong pressure or influence for the ball to travel in that one direction. Despite this, there always exists the possibility that the ball will roll in an unexpected way, because shit happens yo? Different facets of the human conditions are canalized to different degrees. Rooting behavior in infants, for example, is very highly canalized. Fear of darkness and the unknown is canalized to a fairly high degree, as is fear of heights, spiders, and snakes. Susceptibility to PTSD is canalized to an extent (higher stress levels and a greater physiological response to stress means enhanced reflexes), intelligence is variably canalized, the list goes on. The point is, of course, that everything is canalized and variable, and thus everything can be either harder or easier to achieve between individuals.

If we take this metaphor and apply it to the Attribute System, that means a person with a score of 10 in intelligence has a very easy time learning new things (improving skills) and is, in a general sense, more likely to pursue activities associated with high intelligence (since they are more likely to succeed in initial attempts). The metaphor breaks down slightly if we apply it to attributes like strength (since damage done with melee weapons and unarmed strikes is based both on your skills score in those areas AND your attribute score in either strength or endurance), but ultimately the result isn't that two martial artists with unarmed tagged and different endurance scores are inferior/superior to each other. It simply means one has to try harder, perhaps practice more to get the same results.

In other words: Attributes kind of suck and are generally only worth considering for the purpose of gameplay considerations. I want a lot of skill points, so better dump everything into intelligence - but that doesn't stop me from putting points into melee weapons, even with just a strength score of 5. On a personal note, I don't believe in the concept of luck - I believe in chance and statistical probability, but not Luck. So Luck is always my dump stat whenever I play Fallout. All in all, I ONLY CONCERN MYSELF WITH ATTRIBUTE SCORES TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY INFLUENCE SKILL SCORES, and otherwise I simply don't give a damn.

With that in mind, I feel free to define my character through their skills. "This guy is really smart, but he doesn't have very high skill scores in anything except barter because he doesn't have a lot of practical experience." "This guy is really, really ugly AND stupid, but he has a high speech and science score because he has a background in filing research articles."

'-'

So uh

Yeah sorry about that.

Words just happened and stuff.

EDIT: Also, to capture the idea of 'skills' in the sense of accomplishments not covered by the tag and skills system of Fallout (perception requirements to spot traps for example - I based whether or not Dallas/Sabin would spot Poe's grenade prank on their Perception scores), one presumes that there are 'unlisted' skills that cannot normally be trained in the manner most skills are, such as spatial awareness - which would be more likely to improve or deteriorate across long periods of time due to stimuli rather than experiences, no? In which case the Attribute that assigns your starting points in these unlisted skills becomes an important factor of consideration, ala Poe's grenade prank. I may have run an attribute check past Dallas and Sabin, but if somebody else with a high spatial awareness skill score came along who could demonstrate such even if they had a low perception score, I probably would have let it pass.
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