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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Meta
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@Meta Likewise. I had to read on some terms I hadn't heard of before.
There was a point, though, where I was going to question another thing but I decided that it would be foolish to tread on those waters. Unlike most you didn't rage in the middle of the argument and that's the best you can ask for from some person in the internet LOL


I agree. Feel free to question anything you'd like; if something is so protected that we're not open to questioning the validity of what we believe to be fact, how can we claim that we have any basis of considering it true?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bishop
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@Meta How do you know the bible wasn't written by some fantasy writer some thousands of years ago and was used by a group of people to get themselves in power by manipulating the common folk?
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@Meta How do you know the bible wasn't written by some fantasy writer some thousands of years ago and was used by a group of people to get themselves in power by manipulating the common folk?


That's a great question. Historians have several techniques for dating and determining authorship/purpose of ancient writings, which have been applied to the Bible. The "book" known as the Bible is actually a collection of 66 smaller books written by about forty authors over a period of roughly 1600 years.

I accidentally hit send so I'm going to continue this in another post.
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Despite the OT having the Law for the Hebrew (Jewish) people, it doesn't exactly give the author (Moses, except at the end, which was probably Joshua or another contemporary) all that much political power. It's also more of a historical document than it is a political one. Moses was already the leader of the Hebrew people by leading them out of slavery, so he doesn't have much of a reason to establish a government and give himself power through it. Actually, Moses never gets to see a country born at all because the Israelites were in a desert for forty years, scared of attacking the Canaanites. So, TL;DR If Moses wrote the Torah for political power that he already had, he was really bad at it. In fact, the system they set up ended up with the Hebrew leaders losing power because it established a system of judges to control the land (similar to our Supreme Court). So to summarize, the Torah (first five books of the Bible) was written by a party that had no stake in the contents, so historians generally accept what was written as uninfluenced by a desire for political gain (especially since most of it isn't even political—it's a description of historical events).

Beyond that, the rest of the Old Testament actually has authorship with zero ability to be politically motivated by their writings. Most of them were persecuted or even killed for what was written, while most of it is historical writings recounting what was said or done by the Hebrew people. While there are commandments by God (mostly to Israel as a nation in laws and traditions rather than moral guidelines, though many of these do exist) in these writings, they aren't presented in a context that would suggest some random Hebrew wants to (or even could) influence the nation as a whole. And as for their history, they've certainly been questioned about whether or not they're accurate, but in fact, most ancient historians accept the reality of those events presented. A common objection is that because we know it was written by the Hebrews, we can contend that its recountings were biased in their favor. However, two of the main tenets historians use for analyzing the credibility of a source is whether A) The source would provide information that would be an embarrassment or a disgrace to themselves, and B) Whether they would provide information that would clearly damage their credibility. The ancient Hebrew historical writings fulfill both of these—the accounts of the Jewish people show that they did incredibly horrible things and failed over and over. The authors are often common people, such as farmers or those in poverty (though there are the writings of kings and scholars). Because of these reasons and other techniques, historians generally accept the events depicted in the Old Testament (on a historical, though not necessarily miraculous level). Before I talk about the validity of the New Testament, are there any questions about this or information you would like to dispute?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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@DarkwolfX37 So, can I ask, how is anarchy better in anyway besides having less undefinable abstract variables compared to any governments today?


It:
- Fundamentally grants the most freedom to the individual
- Doesn't have corrupt social systems that can be abused
- Retains natural selection and therefor has the highest force of change and improvement
- Logically dictates that those who are detrimental to the health of the whole will be eliminated due to human predisposition towards revenge
- Has no currency system, meaning value holds no pretense of objectivity and is based on things that actually exist
- Holds no restrictions on the formation of new forms of government within it, allowing for a workable society to form as necessary
- Would reduce the population numbers to a sustainable level over time
- Forces everyone to have a certain level of intelligence in order to survive, eliminating the stupid people
- All but prevents weapons of mass destruction from being made, since natural distrust would prevent enough people from getting together to and gathering the resources necessary for them, helping the health of the planet and other species
- Doesn't have any negative factors that come with it because of its nature, other than those of nature itself
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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@Meta How do you know the bible wasn't written by some fantasy writer some thousands of years ago and was used by a group of people to get themselves in power by manipulating the common folk?


Well, we know that isn't the case because we know there were multiple writers over various time periods. It would also technically fall under "historical fiction" since much of it was exaggeration of or based loosely on actual events and people. Apollonius and Yeshua are examples of this.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bishop
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@Meta No go on. Up until now, with real world based historical events, as portrayed in the old testament based on what you said, I see no problem. Wanna hear the credibility of the other parts...

@DarkwolfX37
-That freedom is only an illusion. You will be as free as you are now but instead of the leader putting a sheep's mask, the tyrant that you would have in anarchy would show his bloody wolf teeth for everyone to see.
-???? The one in charge can favor his family and friends. His family/friends gets into a fight with someone else-> even if his family is on the wrong he gives them right and executes the other party. A biased judge and jury.
- Change? Improvement? We are not animals or insects. It would take thousands upon thousands of years for humanity to naturally evolve through procreation. Here, in this day and age we are nearing already there. We already have developed cybernetic limbs and implants. That's the next step to human evolution. Not through natural selection, but through cybernetic enhancements.
- Yes, so it will basically be a death sentence for murderers and criminals depending on their crime. In many states that system is already in place and people still do it. People will continue to do so and being in anarchy doesn't make a single difference. The damn leader could be a murderer and a rapist but noooo, no one can touch him, only obey.
-How the hell is that good? You gotta guess if the value of what you have is worth what the other person has. Currency is there to simplify this, to put a fix value on something. That is just regressing.
-Hmmm, basically tyranny. There is only one in top of the others in anarchy. He/she decides the rules, he/she is the government along with the people that stand by him and by that I mean armed forces.
-Well that's one good point. +1 (But as far as it concerns the current generation, they won't be alive to suffer the consequences of overpopulation so it's irrelevant)
-Not the stupid people per say. But those who aren't quick and cunning enough. That's street smart. You could have millions of people with numerous other talents, geniuses, that die because they weren't cunning/good liars/have good social skills but they excelled in their respective fields none the less. Fields that probably wouldn't exist in a world with anarchy.
-Not only that, but it would prevent a lot of technological advancements.
-And lastly...ha..hahahaha No negative factors he says. Nature in it's core is going to go extinct in the next couple of thousands of years if we survive as a race that long. Earth will be shaved from every green and we will advance beyond needing that green or nature in general. We will advance beyond needing a planet. You may say that is sci-fi but even you can't deny that with enough time that will happen.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Legend
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<Snipped quote by Bishop>

Well, we know that isn't the case because we know there were multiple writers over various time periods. It would also technically fall under "historical fiction" since much of it was exaggeration of or based loosely on actual events and people. Apollonius and Yeshua are examples of this.


According to most historians, this is incorrect. The part that may be considered "fiction" by historians who do not believe in the legitimacy of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth is depictions of miracles, but the overlying accounts, as a whole, are considered reliable and accurate. Yeshua is just the Hebrew spelling of Jesus (the name "Jesus" is an English translation) and if you're referring to Apollos (as it is written in most modern versions of the name) was an early Christian at the origin of its premier as a religion. All writings about Christ directly were written by eyewitnesses, while all writings supposedly about Apollonius were written over a hundred years after his death by Philostratus and are not accepted as legitimate Christian literary canon. You cannot take gnostic or other external texts and argue against internal consistency or legitimacy as it is not part of the canon to begin with.
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@Bishop

As for the legitimacy of New Testament writings, we have the fortune of the events being so recent (less than two thousand years ago) that we have an incredible deal of information regarding the development of early Christianity and the way that the books were distributed. One of the greatest factors is that these events are not recorded by historians hundreds or even thousands of years after the original events occurred (I'll point to Alexander the Great, the earliest biography of whose was written over four hundred years after his death). In contrast, the events depicted in the New Testament were recorded within thirty years of the death of Jesus (which, in terms of ancient historical records, is nothing). (I'd also like to add that the reason they were written as late as they were instead of immediately after is because the Jewish culture was very orally-oriented, meaning that for the most part, information was passed by word of mouth and information was only documented when it was to be preserved—though the Jews took very good care in ensuring accuracy when creating these records. They were likely written near the end of the lives of the original authors who decided that they would write down their sermons, experience, or other information. They also did not collaborate in their writings, based on style, information, and date of the original creation of the documents.) While the New Testament is much more moralistic than it was historical (in contrast to the Old Testament, which is much more a collection of history that happens to shine light on the actions and nature of God), it has a great deal of history involved and several sociopolitical factors at play in the origins of its spread. The primary goal of the New Testament was not to preserve history or even religious law, but rather to show that the Jewish covenant (The Law of Moses) was now overwritten by the law of Christ, shifting the focus of the relationship with God from a traditional, action-oriented approach to one based on intention and personal interaction with God. So because of this, historians have less to argue about in terms of historical legitimacy, because several books (like many of Paul's letters) are written with religious instruction and little to no historical information (other than perhaps something along the lines of "I am writing from Galatia" or "I traveled to Damascus," which historians have no real reason to question).

Like the court of law, when historians seek to show that a document has the potential to be false, they often look for intention on the part of the author to falsify information. Perhaps this is where the misconception that the Bible could have been written for political or religious power, but unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that early Christians were very much persecuted for their beliefs, and this is well documented in extrabiblical ancient writings. In fact, the original apostles and early Christians would only have to reject their writings as falsehoods in order to escape persecution, but they held onto their statements throughout both torture and execution (which the Romans were particularly skilled at). Historians recognize that they died for their beliefs and reject the notion that they would have allowed themselves to be tortured and killed to perpetuate what they knew to be falsehood. For this reason, we know that the original apostles and early Church very much believed in what they taught. The question at that point is no longer "are they lying about their experiences," but rather "can the information presented in these documents be trusted as historically accurate?"

Because of the spread of the writings of the apostles after the events were recorded, we can track how they spread, when, and where rather easily. Because we know of both the culture and the time period of those who joined Christianity of that age, we don't have reason to believe that the original documents are forgeries or have false authorship, because the documents would not be accepted into early Christianity if they had. In fact, we have several case studies where early authors who did seek to gain religious authority attempted to introduce forged documents such as the Gnostic texts, which were rejected by the early Church due to the rigorous standards and methods used to determine whether the document in question was legitimate. Based on these facts, we can conclude that the documents in the New Testament are original and that the authors are who they claim to be (though nobody is aware of who wrote the book of Hebrews). Then the question becomes whether or not these accounts have been corrupted (and there were many attempts to corrupt the original New Testament books throughout the history of the early Church). However, due to the aforementioned documentation procedures by the Jewish people, it has been found that the original text of the New Testament has been preserve with 99.5 percent accuracy, with the remaining half a percent being minor variations in the spellings of names, potentially due to regional differences. However, there has been zero change in meaning or even wording in the original documents; we know this because we have found more copies of early New Testament manuscripts than any other ancient document (with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian, according to New Testament historian Ehrman, I believe).

At this point, we know that the New Testament manuscripts are authentic, unchanged, by eyewitnesses, and believed to be true by both the authors and the early Church. To outline further evidence that historians examine in order to determine the legitimacy of writings, we can turn to the same factors we looked at before: embarrassment and hurting one's own case. If the disciples wanted religious power, they would have written off a majority of their mistakes and errors when creating the texts. However, the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) as well as other New Testament books are filled with mistakes made by the apostles (and contain very little of what they actually did right). It showed them in disbelief, in lack of faith, in anger, and in other unflattering positions that would not have been brought up had they been manufacturing their experiences. In addition, the disciples also hurt their own cause by attacking their own reputations with their improper behavior, but, more importantly, through the eyewitnesses after their claims of a resurrection. They claimed that the first people who had seen the tomb of Jesus empty were two women, and according to ancient Jewish tradition, women are unreliable sources of information. There is no case in which the authors of the New Testament would have cited women as the eyewitnesses of the empty tomb and the first citing of Jesus after his death, unless they were recounting legitimate acts that had taken place (to clarify: that this account is legitimate, but this does not prove that Jesus rose from the dead in and of itself). The next most impactful evidence is that the authors of the New Testament named specific people as additional sources for some of their accounts. In this culture and style of writing, when a source is named, this means that the individual cited is still alive, well known, and can be asked to testify toward the accuracy of the claims presented. If the accounts of the New Testament had been illegitimate, there would have been disputes and qualms with naming people who did not exist, people who had died, or people who did not truly back up their claim, the writings would have been rejected and the belief discarded. This means that, if nothing else, the writings of the New Testament are historically accurate and are accepted by many historians to be accurate depictions of the world and acts of the Jewish people of that time with several external sources to support the accounts.

The only real area where legitimacy is significantly challenged is in the depictions of miracles in both the Old and New Testament, but the problem that many historians face is why the historical accounts have so much evidence to support them when (on an individual basis), the historian may not believe in miracles. So the solution for many of them is to create a naturalistic explanation for many of the events in the Bible, which the people of the time attributed to God out of ignorance. While some absolutely can be patterned to follow this trend (as Christian and Jewish theology both assert that God often utilizes both natural and supernatural occurrences to administer his will—see: the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, likely by volcano), there are far too many claims that do not have any natural analogue to be able to reduce to ad hoc explanations for natural events.

If you have any questions or disagreements, I'd be happy to address those, or I could also discuss the proposed solutions/countersolutions to this issue of historical accuracy/miraculous nature misalignment.
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It is impossible for me to continue in Digimon Dusk now that I've finally beaten it after three days of grinding because you can't fucking connect to wifi on emulator.
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<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

According to most historians, this is incorrect. The part that may be considered "fiction" by historians who do not believe in the legitimacy of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth is depictions of miracles, but the overlying accounts, as a whole, are considered reliable and accurate. Yeshua is just the Hebrew spelling of Jesus (the name "Jesus" is an English translation) and if you're referring to Apollos (as it is written in most modern versions of the name) was an early Christian at the origin of its premier as a religion. All writings about Christ directly were written by eyewitnesses, while all writings supposedly about Apollonius were written over a hundred years after his death by Philostratus and are not accepted as legitimate Christian literary canon. You cannot take gnostic or other external texts and argue against internal consistency or legitimacy as it is not part of the canon to begin with.


"You cannot take gnostic or other internal texts..." Uhm... I wasn't using them to argue against the canon, just to point out examples of characters being based on real people. If I wrote a story about Jaden Smith saving the world, it would be historical fiction.
Further, you can't claim legitimacy based on religious texts. Of course they're going to say that they're true.
Your first statement is simply false. There are two mentions of yeshua in secular sources, and the one that would give the most legitimacy to the scripture stories is widely believed to have been altered for the purposes of doing so, as there are many inaccuracies in it compared to other historical records. The other simply mentions that there was someone by that name who was crucified around the same time period as the story claims.
I'm talking about appolonius, one of the many other supposed messiahs who had people claim they performed miracles. The same miracles as yeshua is described as doing, in large part.
"Jesus" is technically a roman translation, for the record. Much like "Jahovah."
Several of the apostles' writings have been dated as written many years after the death of yeshua, and in some cases the death of the supposed apostle, including ones that claim to have been written at the time the events happened. There are several apostles and writers that have no secular confirmation of their existence.
Not once did I mention the canon of any sect of christianity. I was talking about it in terms of the way the stories were written, not whether or not christians believe them to be accurate. Beyond that, you really can't say "legitimate christian literary canon" because what is and isn't canon varies greatly between the sects and denominations. This has been a point that has been brought up between us countless times, and it's really annoying when you do that.
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@Meta No go on. Up until now, with real world based historical events, as portrayed in the old testament based on what you said, I see no problem. Wanna hear the credibility of the other parts...

@DarkwolfX37
-That freedom is only an illusion. You will be as free as you are now but instead of the leader putting a sheep's mask, the tyrant that you would have in anarchy would show his bloody wolf teeth for everyone to see.
-???? The one in charge can favor his family and friends. His family/friends gets into a fight with someone else-> even if his family is on the wrong he gives them right and executes the other party. A biased judge and jury.
- Change? Improvement? We are not animals or insects. It would take thousands upon thousands of years for humanity to naturally evolve through procreation. Here, in this day and age we are nearing already there. We already have developed cybernetic limbs and implants. That's the next step to human evolution. Not through natural selection, but through cybernetic enhancements.
- Yes, so it will basically be a death sentence for murderers and criminals depending on their crime. In many states that system is already in place and people still do it. People will continue to do so and being in anarchy doesn't make a single difference. The damn leader could be a murderer and a rapist but noooo, no one can touch him, only obey.
-How the hell is that good? You gotta guess if the value of what you have is worth what the other person has. Currency is there to simplify this, to put a fix value on something. That is just regressing.
-Hmmm, basically tyranny. There is only one in top of the others in anarchy. He/she decides the rules, he/she is the government along with the people that stand by him and by that I mean armed forces.
-Well that's one good point. +1 (But as far as it concerns the current generation, they won't be alive to suffer the consequences of overpopulation so it's irrelevant)
-Not the stupid people per say. But those who aren't quick and cunning enough. That's street smart. You could have millions of people with numerous other talents, geniuses, that die because they weren't cunning/good liars/have good social skills but they excelled in their respective fields none the less. Fields that probably wouldn't exist in a world with anarchy.
-Not only that, but it would prevent a lot of technological advancements.
-And lastly...ha..hahahaha No negative factors he says. Nature in it's core is going to go extinct in the next couple of thousands of years if we survive as a race that long. Earth will be shaved from every green and we will advance beyond needing that green or nature in general. We will advance beyond needing a planet. You may say that is sci-fi but even you can't deny that with enough time that will happen.


Please quote. It saves a lot of trouble. Put it in a hider if you want, but not quoting is a good way to not get me to even respond to you.

- There is no leader in an anarchy. That's pretty much the definition of it. No governance, therefor no leader. Attempted leaders, yes, but they are simply attempted leaders. If there is a leader, it is not anarchy. Your response fundamentally doesn't make any sense. Please rephrase your intent in a way that does.
- Again, there is no one in charge in an anarchy. If there is, it is no longer an anarchy and is instead a form of government. I don't see why you're trying to argue against a factor of anarchy as if anarchy is a governmental system, when it's the lack thereof. You may as well be saying that atheists gather around a priest of some sort to learn the tenets of not having a religion. It doesn't make any sense.
- We are absolutely animals. Not only is that a scientific fact, but to think otherwise requires absurd hubris and itself is a result of being an animals. Further, insects are animals as well. And lastly, none of what you said addresses what I said. Natural selection is not just about procreation. Natural selection is the process through which evolution happens, it is not interchangeable with it. And yes, it would take a long period of time for humans to evolve through natural selection. What's your point? What about that is in any way a point against anarchy? I don't see a connection there. If you're saying that the time frame means that we currently would not gain anything from it, so what? I didn't say it as something that would benefit us personally if anarchy was suddenly the situation. It's something that would benefit the species long term majorly and short term minorly.
- I really don't know where you got this idea that anarchy has a leader, but to ignore that factor... The death penalty is nothing like what happens in an anarchistic environment. The death penalty requires certain social systems that can only exist with a government system of some sort. In anarchy, if someone kills someone, those close to the victim will likely seek revenge. Murderers are not beneficial to the survival of a group, which is why nearly every species drives them out or outright kills them once they are discovered.
- Currency has no set value. No moreso than anything else does. You subjectively believe that an once of water is worth a certain amount of currency. Others can just as easily view it as worth a different amount. This is no different than if you removed currency from the equation. Further, currency is imaginary. It has no use, so no inherent value to derive a subjective "worth" from. Currency does not actually exist, it is purely conceptual, which is how the entirety of humanity has managed to become indebted to a nonexistent "other" using value that never had any basis.
- Potentially, yes, tyranny would form. Equally possible would be democracy, or socialism, or a as of yet uncreated government system. That governments might form is not an argument against anarchy, because it is self-defeating. If governments forming is a bad thing, then governments existing is equally bad, and therefor anarchy is only an even better option. Again, you don't seem to understand the definition of anarchy. You also seem to have some notion that the world is reminiscent of a pyramid in the structure of life. This is not the case. At best, you're confusing anarchy and meritocracy. At worst, you are confusing anarchy with something that not only doesn't exist but is based on non-existent factors. You mention of armed forces implies that you are confusing anarchy with stratocracy.
- We are already suffering the results of overpopulation. There are land shortages, there are food shortages, medicine and resource shortages across the planet. Overpopulation is one of the leading causes for the actions that led to climate change and the extinction of many species due to environmental change. To say that current generations wouldn't be affected by the consequences of overpopulation is to show a lack of understanding of the world as it already is. And before David says so, yes, we could solve the food shortage if humanity as a whole decided to, but the fact that humanity uses a capitalistic system makes that supremely unlikely as there is no economic incentive to solve it.
- This is a non-issue. You are confusing knowledge with intelligence. Learning capability, not learned facts. Reasoning and problem solving. People unable to learn are the "stupid" people of the world. People who ignore or reject facts and the common reality around them cannot survive without certain social structures in place to care for them. Moreover, there is no such thing as a one of a kind genius. Eventually, the same thing will be achieved by someone else, or a group of someone elses. There is no major loss to the species if someone who is not intelligent but can excel in a single field dies. The damage is temporary if it exists at all.
- That depends entirely on what social structures inevitably arise in a given location. Most technological advancement does not require the immense number of resources that military technological advancement does. Medical, perhaps, but not technological.
- That's incorrect. Currently, humanity will go extinct within less than a millennium. Perhaps less than a century. Long before it manages to get off this planet. Further, you completely ignored what I said. I said that anarchy's nature has no negative baggage that every governmental system to date has. However, there is baggage from nature itself being reintroduced. I specified this. You ignored it. That is irritating.
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- There is no leader in an anarchy. That's pretty much the definition of it. No governance, therefor no leader. Attempted leaders, yes, but they are simply attempted leaders. If there is a leader, it is not anarchy. Your response fundamentally doesn't make any sense. Please rephrase your intent in a way that does.
- Again, there is no one in charge in an anarchy. If there is, it is no longer an anarchy and is instead a form of government. I don't see why you're trying to argue against a factor of anarchy as if anarchy is a governmental system, when it's the lack thereof. You may as well be saying that atheists gather around a priest of some sort to learn the tenets of not having a religion. It doesn't make any sense.


I'm sorry but you seem to have the wrong misconception that if in the start there is anarchy, it will go on as so. But as seen by human history all the way from the beginning, they always have someone in the lead, a leader. Now, I was hypothesizing how that leader got into a position of power and I said the most likely scenario was using hired guns, armed personnel to get every common folk in order under him. And that's the most primitive way, gain the leadership through a showcasing of your powers and capabilities. But now, that leader could as well be a tyrant. So in the end, anarchy will never stay, there will always from governing systems.

Potentially, yes, tyranny would form. Equally possible would be democracy, or socialism, or a as of yet uncreated government system. That governments might form is not an argument against anarchy, because it is self-defeating. If governments forming is a bad thing, then governments existing is equally bad, and therefor anarchy is only an even better option. Again, you don't seem to understand the definition of anarchy. You also seem to have some notion that the world is reminiscent of a pyramid in the structure of life. This is not the case. At best, you're confusing anarchy and meritocracy. At worst, you are confusing anarchy with something that not only doesn't exist but is based on non-existent factors. You mention of armed forces implies that you are confusing anarchy with stratocracy.


I'm not confusing anything. Governing systems would definitely form. And most of them would be tyranny, one ultimate leader. Isn't that the way of nature? The strongest rises above all others?

We are absolutely animals. Not only is that a scientific fact, but to think otherwise requires absurd hubris and itself is a result of being an animals. Further, insects are animals as well. And lastly, none of what you said addresses what I said. Natural selection is not just about procreation. Natural selection is the process through which evolution happens, it is not interchangeable with it. And yes, it would take a long period of time for humans to evolve through natural selection. What's your point? What about that is in any way a point against anarchy? I don't see a connection there. If you're saying that the time frame means that we currently would not gain anything from it, so what? I didn't say it as something that would benefit us personally if anarchy was suddenly the situation. It's something that would benefit the species long term majorly and short term minorly.


My bad, I can't seem to stick with only using the words for their dictionary meaning. We are animals but we are above every other creature on the planet and as so you can't compare how they live to how we live and the systems we have developed.

My point with this was to make clear that evolution through natural selection is old, primitive, takes a lot of time. Evolution through science on the other hand, freely being able to change the traits that you leave to the next generation is the next step. Even just focusing on cybernetic enhancements to improve the human as a whole is a better way compared to the age long process of evolution through natural selection. And how would it benefit the species long term? As far as we have gone, as humans, it is not just about surviving or procreating anymore, it is about improvement and exploration of the unknown. You type about a world where surviving and evolution through natural selection are all humans need like some common non sentient animal with only those prime directives forged into its DNA.

I really don't know where you got this idea that anarchy has a leader, but to ignore that factor... The death penalty is nothing like what happens in an anarchistic environment. The death penalty requires certain social systems that can only exist with a government system of some sort. In anarchy, if someone kills someone, those close to the victim will likely seek revenge. Murderers are not beneficial to the survival of a group, which is why nearly every species drives them out or outright kills them once they are discovered.


Yeah, small scale wars between formed communities and clans. Great way of killing off most of the population. You don't know the shit that people would start a war about, especially when it's between families in a place where there is no governing system to set matters straight. That other person also has people, it is a never ending cycle unless you kill all of their clan to end it.

We are already suffering the results of overpopulation. There are land shortages, there are food shortages, medicine and resource shortages across the planet. Overpopulation is one of the leading causes for the actions that led to climate change and the extinction of many species due to environmental change. To say that current generations wouldn't be affected by the consequences of overpopulation is to show a lack of understanding of the world as it already is. And before David says so, yes, we could solve the food shortage if humanity as a whole decided to, but the fact that humanity uses a capitalistic system makes that supremely unlikely as there is no economic incentive to solve it.


I entirely agree with that. I, again, didn't express myself correctly. What I meant to say was that, for the current generation, for those people who aren't suffering the blunt end of this phenomena, like you(i presume?) and me, how does it drastically affect our daily lives? For city folk, how does it affect their daily job, when they meet with friends, when they go to a movie? Why should they care if it doesn't affect them when they obviously don't care about the next generation? The earth is suffering, humanity as a whole is suffering but most individuals who aren't, don't give a rat's arse. That's what I meant by "current generation".

- Currency has no set value. No moreso than anything else does. You subjectively believe that an once of water is worth a certain amount of currency. Others can just as easily view it as worth a different amount. This is no different than if you removed currency from the equation. Further, currency is imaginary. It has no use, so no inherent value to derive a subjective "worth" from. Currency does not actually exist, it is purely conceptual, which is how the entirety of humanity has managed to become indebted to a nonexistent "other" using value that never had any basis.


What's the point of establishing that it doesn't exist? It makes transaction of objects between people easier. If everything has a fixed value, even if that value is abstract and doesn't exist, it makes trading a lot more efficient. And even without it, if you were to trade without currency, the comparison of values between 2 objects for trade would be subjective. So in the end it is the same but with currency that object has a price tag on it showing exactly how much the owner values it out front. However you look at it, currency is the most practical solution.

-This is a non-issue. You are confusing knowledge with intelligence. Learning capability, not learned facts. Reasoning and problem solving. People unable to learn are the "stupid" people of the world. People who ignore or reject facts and the common reality around them cannot survive without certain social structures in place to care for them. Moreover, there is no such thing as a one of a kind genius. Eventually, the same thing will be achieved by someone else, or a group of someone elses. There is no major loss to the species if someone who is not intelligent but can excel in a single field dies. The damage is temporary if it exists at all.
- That depends entirely on what social structures inevitably arise in a given location. Most technological advancement does not require the immense number of resources that military technological advancement does. Medical, perhaps, but not technological.


In anarchy no, there isn't. An autistic person who is extraordinary on a certain field of science, that person has no place in anarchy.
And you can't argue that research on every single field whatever it may be would be severely hindered. People are divided into numerous small factions. In a nation, you have the greatest minds come together to research that field, how would that work in anarchy?

- That's incorrect. Currently, humanity will go extinct within less than a millennium. Perhaps less than a century. Long before it manages to get off this planet. Further, you completely ignored what I said. I said that anarchy's nature has no negative baggage that every governmental system to date has. However, there is baggage from nature itself being reintroduced. I specified this. You ignored it. That is irritating.


I didn't ignore it. I just said that nature itself would be irrelevant if we reach a certain point in our evolution through science. Basically "cheating nature" to skip a step.
And if we happen to go extinct by our own hands, then we probably wouldn't deserve to exist at all. No matter how you look at it, if people would want to change something, you can forget the laws and governing systems, they would get that change. But the most you get are some people gathered in a protest while the others basically don't give 2 shits about the future.
You might say"why should humanity, the good part of it, the talented people, suffer because of most humans not caring and being mindless?"
"Well why should humanity be saved just because of that small percentage of people when most are brainless baboons?"
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@Meta Well, my take on all that you said is that it could be all masterfully planned. The people cited as backup to approve of it being legitimate we part of it. The disciples used their own mistakes to sell their story, show that they are human, be believable. And that Jesus who performed all those miracles was the greatest con artist to ever walk this water. I know it is far fetched but even if the chances of it being so are 0.000000000001% wouldn't you think that the idea is plausible?

Also you seem to believe in hell. What fuels that belief?
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<Snipped quote by Legend>

"You cannot take gnostic or other internal texts..." Uhm... I wasn't using them to argue against the canon, just to point out examples of characters being based on real people. If I wrote a story about Jaden Smith saving the world, it would be historical fiction.
Further, you can't claim legitimacy based on religious texts. Of course they're going to say that they're true.
Your first statement is simply false. There are two mentions of yeshua in secular sources, and the one that would give the most legitimacy to the scripture stories is widely believed to have been altered for the purposes of doing so, as there are many inaccuracies in it compared to other historical records. The other simply mentions that there was someone by that name who was crucified around the same time period as the story claims.
I'm talking about appolonius, one of the many other supposed messiahs who had people claim they performed miracles. The same miracles as yeshua is described as doing, in large part.
"Jesus" is technically a roman translation, for the record. Much like "Jahovah."
Several of the apostles' writings have been dated as written many years after the death of yeshua, and in some cases the death of the supposed apostle, including ones that claim to have been written at the time the events happened. There are several apostles and writers that have no secular confirmation of their existence.
Not once did I mention the canon of any sect of christianity. I was talking about it in terms of the way the stories were written, not whether or not christians believe them to be accurate. Beyond that, you really can't say "legitimate christian literary canon" because what is and isn't canon varies greatly between the sects and denominations. This has been a point that has been brought up between us countless times, and it's really annoying when you do that.


I'm going to need your sources because these statements are false. Yeshua = Jesus and Apollonius = Apollos, an early apostle that has (I believe one) source that wrote about him outside of the Bible and isn't considered reliable. But if you want to argue against the existence of Jesus in the first place, you have an uphill battle because that fact is widely accepted by historians. I'll quote this webpage that has dozens of sources listed:

"Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is more probable than not,[4][5][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][15]:168–173 While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed."
Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_o…

I mentioned that Jesus is a translation of Yeshua. Same as Yahweh or Jehovah, as you noted.
The four gospels were written within thirty years of the death of Jesus, which, from a historical perspective, is a remarkably short time period (I remarked on all of this and more in my long section). None of the texts attributed to the apostles have any evidence that they were written by anyone other than who is thought to have written them.
Finally, if it's annoying, let us settle it. You have a misconception that the canon varies wildly from sect to sect. However, the core canon of 66 books (which was widely accepted by the early Church as the biblical text with very little variation, save books such as James and Revelation) is widely accepted among virtually every denomination and with perhaps one or two additional texts that are considered by some to also be a part of scripture (and by very few individuals as well—you may point to the Apocrypha, but that's even sectioned off in many Bibles that contain it as a "Hey, we aren't sure about this" book). This notion that the biblical canon is not well established is ludicrous and has no foundation when taking Christian theology into question.
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@Bishop

Super fair question. The main issue with the trickster hypothesis (I made up that name) is that, save perhaps one or two fringe cases I am not aware of, nobody will willingly die for what they know to be a lie. When the apostles are being hunted or tortured to death by the Romans, they still contend that what they say is true. They could have escaped persecution by admitting their own lie or (if they are telling the truth) lying and say that what they wrote is false. But the fact that they never gave it up shows that they have a deep conviction that what they write is accurate. To answer the question regarding them using their own flaws to appear human, the issue is that the Bible is extremely negative about some of the acts and thoughts of the apostles. The reason that this is such a widely accepted method by historians is because they did significantly more harm to their own case through both their faults and the way they said events occurred (such as the women at the tomb) than any help that they could have gained from this is overshadowed by the damage that would be done. Plus, people in this day and age weren't exactly too keen on human psychology, so it would have been difficult to be that cunning.

That being said, it leaves two real possibilities. Either the apostles were totally crazy, as well as everyone cited as sources, and anyone who was also an eyewitness as well (the Jesus=elite hypnotist idea), or they were telling the truth. But the issue with the idea that Jesus was the real fraud behind it all is that he also died for what he taught, more severely than any of the others. So is Jesus some super-magician who can hypnotize thousands of people into seeing things that weren't there and then being tortured to death for what he knows to be false (something that nobody does) or is totally crazy himself but is at the same time cunning enough to commit this huge ruse? Perhaps, but it's also a complex and unnecessarily more intricate explanation with a thousand points of failure than accepting the historicity of the New Testament (even if you reject the miracles). Plus, the uber-magician hypothesis ends up collapsing under scrutiny when you consider all of the people who never met Jesus or any of the apostles directly but were still able to verify the non-miraculous events (since you have to be an eyewitness to affirm these) as they are depicted.



The answer to this question is much shorter. I believe in Hell because I believe the Bible is true.
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<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

I'm going to need your sources because these statements are false. Yeshua = Jesus and Apollonius = Apollos, an early apostle that has (I believe one) source that wrote about him outside of the Bible and isn't considered reliable. But if you want to argue against the existence of Jesus in the first place, you have an uphill battle because that fact is widely accepted by historians. I'll quote this webpage that has dozens of sources listed:

"Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is more probable than not,[4][5][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][15]:168–173 While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed."
Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_o…

I mentioned that Jesus is a translation of Yeshua. Same as Yahweh or Jehovah, as you noted.
The four gospels were written within thirty years of the death of Jesus, which, from a historical perspective, is a remarkably short time period (I remarked on all of this and more in my long section). None of the texts attributed to the apostles have any evidence that they were written by anyone other than who is thought to have written them.
Finally, if it's annoying, let us settle it. You have a misconception that the canon varies wildly from sect to sect. However, the core canon of 66 books (which was widely accepted by the early Church as the biblical text with very little variation, save books such as James and Revelation) is widely accepted among virtually every denomination and with perhaps one or two additional texts that are considered by some to also be a part of scripture (and by very few individuals as well—you may point to the Apocrypha, but that's even sectioned off in many Bibles that contain it as a "Hey, we aren't sure about this" book). This notion that the biblical canon is not well established is ludicrous and has no foundation when taking Christian theology into question.


I'm not saying that he didn't, just that there's only one real source that he did in any way even similar to the stories, ie being a religious teacher and not just some random guy who was sympathetic enough in the public to be made into the main focus after the fact.
That's just false. Several of the apostles don't even have evidence that they wrote anything. The major ones in the bible do, I'm pretty sure Luke, John, and two other of the major ones actually have more evidence of existing than yeshua did, but a couple really don't.
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that the canon isn't well established. You're right that around 50-70 books are incredibly common, but several of them as well as several that you wouldn't consider canon, the Apacrypha being a good example yes, are considered canon to a good number of sects. Then there's the "non-biblical" books, the ones considered canon by a sect even though they aren't printed as a part of the bible as a book. You also say "early church" but I don't think you're referring to that correctly. The "common" books were compiled together and given canon status relatively recently, and there were at least two major events since then that have notably changed things. Keep in mind that a huge chunk of christians use the KJV, and it was specifically re-translated, altered, and in some spots recompiled in order to be better sounding and easier to sell to people. Your thought that somehow all christians have this same pool they use just isn't right. Much of it is the same across all sects, you'd be hard pressed to find a christian who doesn't consider John to be canon, at least for the most part. But even with the common books, interpretations, and therefor what the canon is for all intents and purposes, varies WIDELY. If you want to talk specifically about the physical books in terms of canon, yes, you are about 90% correct. There are about 60ish books that will show up almost every time. If you want to talk about what they follow as canon, which is generally what I refer to, then there's a wide bell-curve to keep in mind.
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@Meta I really don't care about the parts where no unexplained phenomena is involved they could as well be completely true as long as I care. I doubt the miracle parts and the reason why you believe them. You are a logical person, what pushes you to believe parts of the bible that depict these wonders? They could easily be staged, to fool anyone. You have thousands of shows/magic performances/etc that full the audience doing crazy stuff. And the apostles were devoted followers of Jesus. They could be fanatic to the cause for whatever motif. You have spies that are trained to resist torture. You have zealots who would do the same, their sheer will power fueled by the believe in their cause could make them unyielding to torture.

Hell, Jesus could be an extraterrestrial being with powers or someone from the future with knowledge and abilities to perform said miracles. That is way more believable that the existence of God who created everything and hell where everyone goes to get punishment. I mean, is it reasonable to condemn someone to eternal torture just because of that time that he sinned once, didn't pray to god or ask for forgiveness during life? I mean, it is a sin but according to who? As we earlier discussed. In the bible, who decides what is a sin, who wrote them on behalf of whom?
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<Snipped quote by Meta>

I'm not saying that he didn't, just that there's only one real source that he did in any way even similar to the stories, ie being a religious teacher and not just some random guy who was sympathetic enough in the public to be made into the main focus after the fact.
That's just false. Several of the apostles don't even have evidence that they wrote anything. The major ones in the bible do, I'm pretty sure Luke, John, and two other of the major ones actually have more evidence of existing than yeshua did, but a couple really don't.
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that the canon isn't well established. You're right that around 50-70 books are incredibly common, but several of them as well as several that you wouldn't consider canon, the Apacrypha being a good example yes, are considered canon to a good number of sects. Then there's the "non-biblical" books, the ones considered canon by a sect even though they aren't printed as a part of the bible as a book. You also say "early church" but I don't think you're referring to that correctly. The "common" books were compiled together and given canon status relatively recently, and there were at least two major events since then that have notably changed things. Keep in mind that a huge chunk of christians use the KJV, and it was specifically re-translated, altered, and in some spots recompiled in order to be better sounding and easier to sell to people. Your thought that somehow all christians have this same pool they use just isn't right. Much of it is the same across all sects, you'd be hard pressed to find a christian who doesn't consider John to be canon, at least for the most part. But even with the common books, interpretations, and therefor what the canon is for all intents and purposes, varies WIDELY. If you want to talk specifically about the physical books in terms of canon, yes, you are about 90% correct. There are about 60ish books that will show up almost every time. If you want to talk about what they follow as canon, which is generally what I refer to, then there's a wide bell-curve to keep in mind.


I'm not arguing that we know who wrote every book. It's only really relevant in the four gospels, and we do know who wrote those as you mentioned. I'm not saying that all of them wrote something either. We have evidence of authorship in "the major ones in the Bible," and the ones in the Bible are the only ones in referring to. It seems as though you think I'm referring to external authors.
Now we're getting somewhere. I'll argue that the breadth of disputed books is much narrower than 20 books—it's closer to a cap of 5 with some fringe sects believing otherwise. The main 66 are well established and widely adopted, and the significance of the disputed books is minimal.
If we're going to talk about translation, however, I totally agree that KJV is not an authoritative source of accuracy. I do believe that you are overstating the significance of the disparacies between that version and the original, but keep in mind that this was the first translation of the Latin scripture into English, so the process wasn't exactly as ideal as it is now. But when compared to ESV (widely regarded as one of the most accurate translations), there aren't particularly any theological differences. Fortunately, we have access to extremely early texts and thousands of samples to determine that the original writings were not corrupted over time.
You seem to be referring to what many believers read as "Bible books," even if they're not part of the actual scripture (which is what your statement regarding what they follow as canon seems to get across). Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but the difference is that I'm not exactly interested in sources the layman will follow outside of the main biblical text because those aren't sources of the main theology.
Finally, when I refer to the "early Church," I mean before the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire or even the Catholic Church itself. At this time, believers were referred to as followers of "The Way" until they were initially called Christians at Antioch. Even before the Council of Nicaea, these early Christians had already established amongst themselves what would be considered literary canon (save discussions on books like James and Revelation, as previously mentioned).
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