[OOC] Blood Act I~ Ghosts of the Past

[Freeshooter92]

Either we should weaken Psychomancy or make it MUCH more taxing on the blood in its current 'nothing resists this shit' incarnation. The biggest issue is the fact that the power-to-cost ratio is severely fucked. As for tweaks, simple suggestions include:

Range: Line of sight isn't good enough, 'range: if I can see them.' Is still silly since nothing else works in that manner. Make minimum range something like ten feet, and for everything beyond ten feet there gets to be a 'delay' in the spell. Each extra five to ten feet after the first add a second between casting the spell, and the spell actually happening.

Delay: Delay is just a good concept in general that removes the 'instant ranged effect' issue. Perhaps certain spells already come with a delay?

Focus: Perhaps Psychomancy spells require sustained focus for a time to take effect? Anything more advanced than telepathic messaging should have a casting time.

Wards are a pain in the ass to deal with. I don't like it mechanically, or in flavor. It's saying that the only defense against magic is magic, which is blatantly untrue. Wards should be altered to extra defense on top of active resistance (Get out of my head!) and sheer willpower. Instead, the defense of these two natural things should be changed to improve the delay between a psychomantic attack being cast and happening, rather than just allowing a no-sell like wards currently do. Wards should now boost delay more, to potentially make the effort of breaking down the defense not being worth it, instead of the standard 'fuck you, you lose'. This

These Make Psychomancy in line with everything else, whilst also letting them keep their handy utility benefits and and just make everything more consistent than the all-or-nothing approach to defense we have now.

But it should be noted that Psychomancy should not be better at fighting than Pyromancy or Electromancy... It should be worse, actually. Why? Because those are combat bloods, and unlike them Psychomancy comes with a fucking BOUNTY of utility effects like telepathic conversation, invisibility and the like. The thought that a Psychomancer should be more effective than them in combat and one hundred times more effective out of it is silly. Besides, their role should be emphasized not towards combat but manipulating things outside of it.

[EliteCommander]

I disagree with you entirely. It seems like you are way overestimating the abilities of psychomancers. There is no other Blood with the same kinds of counters. Just because you don't like wards, that doesn't mean they aren't an appropriate counter. Anyone can learn them, it won't detract much from your character's own magical learning, and they can block any major attacks. Because of wards, psychomancy is comparatively the weakest form of magic against nonmages. Think about it, what can the average guy do against an experienced pyromancer? Saying they don't just happen to have some counter pyromancy runes, there is nothing really they can do. In this world, mages that are experienced tend to dominate non-mages, that's just how it is. The same isn't true for psychomancers, as even non-mages can pick up wards. If you just keep piling on defenses, it will make the blood useless.

Edit: To clarify, I don't think you intend to bring down psychomancy to such a degree, but I don't think you are considering all of the factors that go into its balancing compared to other bloods. I think you may also be underestimating the comparative effectiveness of other bloods.

[Freeshooter92]

He can move is what he can do. Pyromancy doesn't automatically hit. You could say that master Pyromancer can hit everything, which is true. A master Psychomancer wouldn't have trouble dealing with that guy either. Psychomancy gives you a hell of alot at low levels over everyone else.

[EliteCommander]

He can move is what he can do. Pyromancy doesn't automatically hit. You could say that master Pyromancer can hit everything, which is true. A master Psychomancer wouldn't have trouble dealing with that guy either. Psychomancy gives you a hell of alot at low levels over everyone else.

@Freeshooter92

You say that he can move, which is technically true, but how often is someone really going to be able to dodge an experienced mage? After years of experience, it's not like a mage is going to be incapable of aiming. A pyromancer could shoot an exploding fireball at their feet, an herbamancer can change the direction of vines on the fly, an electromancer has really fast moving projectiles, an aeromancer can just use the air around them. Dodging is a possibility, but there are a lot of abilities which really aren't that hard to aim.

You point out that psychomancy is a guaranteed hit, which is fair, but you also need to consider that a ward is a guaranteed defense For as long as you can maintain the ward, it will work against major psychomantic attacks. A ward can be broken, but as long as it is up, it has a 100% success rate. Trying to dodge a lightning bolt isn't anywhere near as certain.

[Freeshooter92]

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You say that he can move, which is technically true, but how often is someone really going to be able to dodge an experienced mage? After years of experience, it's not like a mage is going to be incapable of aiming. A pyromancer could shoot an exploding fireball at their feet, an herbamancer can change the direction of vines on the fly, an electromancer has really fast moving projectiles, an aeromancer can just use the air around them. Dodging is a possibility, but there are a lot of abilities which really aren't that hard to aim.

You point out that psychomancy is a guaranteed hit, which is fair, but you also need to consider that a ward is a guaranteed defense For as long as you can maintain the ward, it will work against major psychomantic attacks. A ward can be broken, but as long as it is up, it has a 100% success rate. Trying to dodge a lightning bolt isn't anywhere near as certain.

@EliteCommander

That isn't fair either. 'All or nothing' defense is not fun in any way to deal with. A more accessible but more easily broken defense would easily make up all of this nonsense. Any asshole with legs can avoid something with some luck, but if you don't have a ward, you're fucked. And if it's so easy to get a waard, then everyone at the college will get one and Enemy Psychomancy will be entirely useless. The ward system as a counter is just... bad.

[Freeshooter92]

Also, Rtron, check out this hilarious new Tau battlesuit. It's a fucking Metal Gear.

Every missile ever

[EliteCommander]

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That isn't fair either. 'All or nothing' defense is not fun in any way to deal with. A more accessible but more easily broken defense would easily make up all of this nonsense. Any asshole with legs can avoid something with some luck, but if you don't have a ward, you're fucked. And if it's so easy to get a waard, then everyone at the college will get one and Enemy Psychomancy will be entirely useless. The ward system as a counter is just... bad.

@Freeshooter92

I respectfully disagree. It makes for a solid defense against a potentially potent form of magic. A "willpower" system is much more hazy, and I honestly would not like it. Honestly, I'm surprised more people don't have wards. The whole challenge of fighting a psychomancer is managing to kill them before they can break through your wards.

[Freeshooter92]

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I respectfully disagree. It makes for a solid defense against a potentially potent form of magic. A "willpower" system is much more hazy, and I honestly would not like it. Honestly, I'm surprised more people don't have wards. The whole challenge of fighting a psychomancer is managing to kill them before they can break through your wards.

@EliteCommander

IF. YOU. HAVE IT. If you don't, you're fucked. and it's more reasonable to assume one doesn't if in doubt. And if they don't? There is literally nothing one can do. Even if you don't have armor you can still try to avoid sword slashes, you aren't completely out of options if you don't have the one, ONLY defense like in Psychomancy.

[Rtron]

Honestly, I'm surprised more people don't have wards. The whole challenge of fighting a psychomancer is managing to kill them before they can break through your wards.

@EliteCommander

Althalus is just because he doesn't trust Satori or one of her students to not do something reminiscent of the first dinner. If Ssarak offered, he'd accept.

Aramir, Aramir is just terrified of letting someone into her head.

[Rtron]

<Snipped quote by EliteCommander>

IF. YOU. HAVE IT. If you don't, you're fucked. and it's more reasonable to assume one doesn't if in doubt. And if they don't? There is literally nothing one can do. Even if you don't have armor you can still try to avoid sword slashes, you aren't completely out of options if you don't have the one, ONLY defense like in Psychomancy.

@Freeshooter92

Easy now.

[Freeshooter92]

<Snipped quote by Freeshooter92>

Easy now.

@Rtron

He's not listening. It's a bit silly to only have one option in the face of this threat. He says that 'anyone can get it', but that isn't true. The only source is someone that is widely reviled, it takes time, and is not available to the public.

And if it is as easy to get one, what's even the point of Psychomancers? Wards need to be made more common and more consistent.

[Fallenreaper]

In my years of experience with tabletop gaming let me tell you this: 'Overbalance' is the complaint of one annoyed that an exploit he had been using no longer works. Let me tell you what's hurtful. Ssarak can functionally do everything Alaira can do except 'Lightning explosion' (which I've only done once), and unlike Alaira there are no heavy penalties or costs. He is an extremely skilled combatant, He can fly, he can disable opponents at range with Psychomancy, which is like lightning but he cannot miss.

In combat my character is basically useless in comparison since five or six lightning bolts is nowhere NEAR as useful and he's just as potent physically.

@Freeshooter92

This isn't tabletop though. Some aspects don't quite apply due to the fact they don't have the same elements to help balance things out. Tabletop usually has streamline description (aka, mainly focusing on the action usually), rely on dice luck and number balance to achieve balance. Something we have to do through description, trust and wording. Tabletop doesn't account for creativity outside a strategy that seems pretty much straight forward, to me anyways.

If I was hunting Ssarak, who in this example is at level of a master, I already know how my rules would limit him as it would be no different than any other blood.

1. Range limit: getting out of the 500 ft range, no magic effects work including Psychomancy. This means Ssarak, or any other Psychomancer, can't read Alaira's mind at all or influence it in any way though sadly as a mage, nor can hers. However there's numerous long range weapons that can... And since an arrow hasn't an mind, how can he sense it coming?
2. Sight. If they can't see, through eyes or other means, they can't cast accurate magic, period. Which means if someone tries to mind control and you get behind a rock, smoke bomb, etc and out of sight, guess what? That spell can't be casted since they lost their target.
3. Doing many tasks/spell/actions at once. This lowers your chances of dodging or damage worth, mainly because dodging takes effort and awareness. To cast a spell, those two aspects lowers and the more you're doing determines the damage result. You do up to 4-6 things, you're going to get seriously hurt and likely killed because best you can likely do is sidestep in place.
4. Natural vs Manipulation, you're rewriting what has been there since birth. It takes some time which gives an opponent some time to react and stop the source before the spell is complete.

Another factor you might not have realized, Free, is that the mind is also influenced by electricity in the brain. I assume, though Lucius might want to correct me, that if a electromancer, which this is well in the range of one, can alter and sort of shock their brain out of the effects. This would make it hard for a psychomancer to retain control as they need to be familiar with the mind set they are latching into. Much like vitamncy needs a wide, detailed knowledge of anatomy to be used else you risk killing otherwise hitting the wrong stuff, potently causing more trouble then intended. Especially in healing. In addition, because of rule 4 which goes for all bloods, the targeted player has short time depending on the level (even a master has several seconds) to counter/stop the attack in a way they think is fitting. Which then involves rule concerning the points of focus or dodge, meaning their spell lessens in power due to having to shift focus briefly. This can even prevent the spell from being casted at all.

Any normal character, especially one not trained for combat, will have a hard time against mages of any sufficient level at least. A civilian would just panic and die, even against a trained soldier realistically. However someone trained to deal with combative situations can stay calm and cool, then use that time to either sent a fast attack into the mage or at least break the focus causing the spell to be either weaker (aka taking more time to activate and lessens power) or not be casted at all.

I hope this helps some.

[EliteCommander]

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IF. YOU. HAVE IT. If you don't, you're fucked. and it's more reasonable to assume one doesn't if in doubt. And if they don't? There is literally nothing one can do. Even if you don't have armor you can still try to avoid sword slashes, you aren't completely out of options if you don't have the one, ONLY defense like in Psychomancy.

@Freeshooter92

If you're not an agile individual, then in a practical sense, you're not going to be dodging a mage's magic. In order to counter any magic, you have to have the skills to do so. Being mages in the college, I would say that it is reasonable that most students would want to pick up wards.

Also consider that to really manipulate someone's mind, you have to be pretty high level. A successful psychomantic attack will not kill like with other bloods.

[Freeshooter92]

500 feet is hardly a weakness. Most fights won't occur at such ranges with ANY kind of magic anyhow. Remember that a weakness is not a weakness if it never comes into play.

Line of sight would be great, but because Psychomancy's effects are instant that means you can't think 'oh shit, better duck behind a rock'.

Limiting it with penalties for multiple actions at once matters little: They only need to affect one person to get you.

Making it take time to affect is exactly what I'm pushing for.

Psychomancy has been given a large amount of power against the unwarded in the hopes of making it feel stronger and avoiding making one feel useless. I can guarantee I've felt useless a lot more often than Elite has, and a great amount of my frustration comes from how 'easy' Psychomancy seems. Even if he doesn't abuse it, the knowledge that Ssarak or any Psychomancer CAN abuse Psychomancy while I have no such thing feels awful. We need to make Psychomancy FEEl less frustrating to fight against.

I can imagine making someone have Seizures with electromancy but the amount of control required to 'zap' immunity into herself without breaking things would take more training and detailed knowledge of the biology of her brain than Alaira is reasonably capable of.

[Freeshooter92]

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If you're not an agile individual, then in a practical sense, you're not going to be dodging a mage's magic. In order to counter any magic, you have to have the skills to do so. Being mages in the college, I would say that it is reasonable that most students would want to pick up wards.

Also consider that to really manipulate someone's mind, you have to be pretty high level. A successful psychomantic attack will not kill like with other bloods.

@EliteCommander

You don't need much to kill someone if you've got something Physical (And easily obtainable) to do the actual killing blow... Like, say, a dagger. Any moron can stab someone. Anyone can move aside and avoid something with a little luck. The big problem is that if you don't have a ward there is literally nothing you can do, no last hope. You lose.

[EliteCommander]

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You don't need much to kill someone if you've got something Physical (And easily obtainable) to do the actual killing blow... Like, say, a dagger. Any moron can stab someone. Anyone can move aside and avoid something with a little luck. The big problem is that if you don't have a ward there is literally nothing you can do, no last hope. You lose.

@Freeshooter92

Fallen just described a few counters without wards, actually.

[Lucius Cypher]

I'm open to ideas of alternative defenses against Psychomancy, Freeshooter, but it's not going to be fair for current players who have psychomancy and future players who may want Psychomancy if wards become a freely available thing. Take for example, the bridge fight with the enemy Psychomancer and Ssarak. Sure everyone else had difficulties dealing with the Psychomancer because they lacked wards, but when you do? No amount of illusions can protect you from that rock coming in your direction, or an axe being swung at your chest.

If everyone had wards, that's a lot different then merely giving everyone a chance to resist. That's a free counter, even if it's just a novice level ward, as a novice level ward will be able to withstand at least one master level attack.

And working off from Fallen's ideas, there are ways to defend from it utilizing one's own magic. I can't say for certain the electricity thing, but a Geomancer capable of moving the ground around him could shield his body with an earthen barrier. No line of sight = No effect. I'm current revamping Telepathy that, even as a passive effect, one still needs to be aware of the target's location in order to maintain the telepathy. A focused concentration would allow you to stick with them as long as they haven't gone too far, but then you're focused on that one person, which means less focus on the area around you.

Let's say I trick the guy into thinking I'm somewhere else, right? A simple thing, SURELY not equal to a wizard hurling a boulder at him? Well, now that I've done that, I simply walk around and stab him in the back. No dramatic fight, no defense, he's down, I win. If I were the boulder guy, he could have dodged. After all, how can you fight someone like that? It's totally impossible. And since he doesn't have the special training (Didn't go to the college) I can do that to him with complete impunity, since no natural defense to Psychomancy actually exists.

@Freeshooter92

As frustrating as it may sound, that is the sort of fighting style one would need to use with Psychomancy. Like a backstabbing rogue, doing things that are straight forward and predictable means that you'd die. Psychomancy, after gaining more ability in it, is all about shutting down key targets and making it easier to defeat them through other conventional methods. Or distracting multiple targets with illusions to make it easier to do things conventionally. Now I can agree that Psychomancy should take more time to do, but it will fall into a similar vain of being lit on fire: It may not be immediate, but if you don't stop it quickly you will die, one way or another.

[Rtron]

Line of sight would be great, but because Psychomancy's effects are instant that means you can't think 'oh shit, better duck behind a rock'.

@Freeshooter92

You can with the time affect.

Limiting it with penalties for multiple actions at once matters little: They only need to affect one person to get you.

@Freeshooter92

Well, most people aren't going to stand around and wait for their opponent to make the first move. Much less if they're fighting mages. In the time it takes for the spell to go off, Psychomancers will have to be dodging or get axed in the face.

Making it take time to affect is exactly what I'm pushing for.

@Freeshooter92

It exists. It's a mechanic in the RP.

Psychomancy has been given a large amount of power against the unwarded in the hopes of making it feel stronger and avoiding making one feel useless. I can guarantee I've felt useless a lot more often than Elite has, and a great amount of my frustration comes from how 'easy' Psychomancy seems. Even if he doesn't abuse it, the knowledge that Ssarak or any Psychomancer CAN abuse Psychomancy while I have no such thing feels awful. We need to make Psychomancy FEEl less frustrating to fight against.

@Freeshooter92

You do have a point there. Unless you know the Psychomancer is a psychomancer, have Wards, or are fast enough to get in close and keeping being close to said Psychomancer, there's really no defense.

[Freeshooter92]

But if the attack is instant, like it currently is, one cannot react.
Edit: If that's been there, people have been ignoring it.

[Lucius Cypher]

There's also a level of creativity that has to go into using Psychomancy. Using my robed psychomancer from before, he didn't immediately reveal himself to be a Psychomancer. He tried to pose as a Demonomancer first and summoned "Demons", which were suppose to distract you while his actual soldiers killed you all. Of course that didn't pan out after Ssarak made it clear the demons didn't exist, but even if he didn't someone may realize that they aren't what they seem if blows doesn't hit anything solid and even if they slashed at you, you wouldn't feel the hit. Personal effects like invisibility are more useful because then you aren't trying to trick anyone, just making sure they don't see you. And even then it's taxing to keep it up for long.