[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[LeeRoy]

@Darth I said I was done, because you're too ingrained in your beliefs. I know you won't be moved, now stop. Attempting to uproot an immovable object is futile.

[Darth]

Whatever you say, sunshine.

[Divinity]

@Dazsos
No need to apologize. I am actually quite absorbed into the debate. It is a good talk to have, under cooler tempers and with open minds. I personally take whatever is thrown at me. I learned long ago that complaining rarely helps. Instead, I have compiled laundry lists of ways to deal with, and punish those who would try to defeat me in what I feel are cheap or underhanded ways.

That said, I will send my sheet to you shortly. I said I would earlier, but then this debate began turning the gears, and once they start... Well I become a lot like a newtons cradle. I need something to make me stop. Glad you saved me xD.

[LeeRoy]

@DLL Last few lines of description and he's done!

[Maquina]

The last line is what I've been saying the entire time. We're using different terminology, but it's essentially the same claim.

@Darth

I think the issue you're hitting is that folks like LeeRoy and myself who're firearm enthusiasts, both in-game and out (or at least I'm assuming, in LR's case), have been told repeatedly, often, over the course of many years, and with enormous prejudice that the use of firearms in an RP context, at any power tier, for any reason, with any character, constitutes douchebaggery of the highest order and that we're both awful players and awful people for bringing a gun to an anything-else fight. It has left folks understandably bitter, when we're so frequently told that what we love to do and what we find fun an interesting, is Literally The Bane of All RP.

It's impossible to challenge someone to a low-powered gunfight because they all assume a pistols-at-ten-paces idiot duel where everybody dies on the first post. A paintball-style run-and-gun battle with athletic parkouring soldiers using their guns, their wits, and their moxie is...well, you never see it because literally everyone assumes that if you shoot, you hit, and if you hit, the other guy dies.

Which is absolutely ludicrous, and has ruined more than three perfectly good games/game ideas.

I've been a firearms-centric player and Official Gunslinger long enough, and generally successfully enough, that people have asked me to write them guidebooks on how to make guns work in RP. I know the rules of gunfighting in the game. I know that the most important one is that people will do ANYTHING to avoid being struck by gunfire. Folks who'll cheerfully let an opponent run them through with a halberd will break character and/or resort to metagaming or powergaming to get out of the way of a .22-equivalent round. That scorn and derision for firearms and firearm users, and that intense desire to avoid EVER taking a hit from firearms, is so universal that most of the more successful gunslingers I've met/fought count on those reactions and use them to steer their enemy's actions.

That doesn't make the scorn, derision, and cries of "CHEESE NUB" any less grating. Heh...nor does it really make it easier to hear when someone states that it's blind-obvious that of course firearms are OP cheese in low-tier/mild powers - who wouldn't agree?

I would argue that it's perfectly possible to have a really engaging and entertaining dispowered/mild-powers gunfight - so long as the characters were set up for it. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of low-tier guys are set up for melee street brawling - no eagle-eyed riflemen in body armor, because an eagle-eyed rifleman in body armor is instantly and universally decried as unfair cheese and banned from the board.

Is that really fair, though? Is it impossible to see where the gunslinger fans are coming from on this issue? yeah, I prefer mid to high tier where it's not a big problem, but maybe someone really, really wants to play that eagle-eyed rifleman. How's he supposed to do that when everyone tells him he's a cheating dickbag for even contemplating the profile?

[Drifting Pollen]

Just going to drop in a comment here.

I've fought with and against guns and gun-like weapons, both on the low and high ends of the power scale, and it is possible to deal with them in all circumstances, provided you and your opponent can be reasonable about things.

One way is to have some means of blocking them. Making a character immune to bullets or fast enough to dodge them would be too strong for mild-powers fights, but there can be stuff that defends against them. An enchanted shield, for instance, could work to deflect them, while not providing an absolute defense. I had one character who was essentially a big strong lizard-man, who relied on his scaly skin for protection... his scales weren't tough enough to take bullets in most areas, but the ones on his back were far tougher and had bony plates similar to a crocodilian, and so when he went down on all fours and kept his head low, most bullets would simply ricochet off his back.

The other way of handling things is by considering aim. I actually got involved in a a fight recently between two unpowered humans dueling with guns in an obstacle-laden warehouse. You'd think this would be over in an instant, since whichever character caught the other out of cover first would immediately win- but my opponent and I agreed that we'd take aim into consideration: a sudden shot at long range would not hit any vital organs, and would have a chance of missing entirely. To land a lethal shot, we needed to either ambush the enemy and fire from up close, or figure out their location and line up a shot, while somehow ensuring the enemy didn't know they were being targeted.

So IMO anything can work really, so long as both players willing to bend the rules a little if necessary.

[ImportantNobody]

@Fallenreaper
Edit: Also gun-fu is the tightest shit in the history of shit and the fact that it is literally non-existent in the Arena is the most disappointing thing I've ever seen.

@LeeRoy

I have a gun-fu character. She's granted me my official win and wins before we were keeping track. Funny how my gun character wins all the time.

Sure, for realistic humans if you don't have a gun then you can beat someone with a gun if you're able to outmaneuver and out think your opponent in an environment that favors you. However, your choice of not using a gun gives you 0 advantage other than for the fun. You can only negate your disadvantages if you outplay your opponent, and if you're able to defeat them without one you could have defeated them with one far easier. The gun has the advantage at every distance. Put two people within swinging distance. The gun user just has to move their finger while the melee weapon user must swing their whole arm. Go one step further and put them with the sword point pressed against the gun user's chest. The gun user can still fire off a bullet quicker than the sword could travel through their chest, and continue firing while the melee weapon is inside them, while the melee weapon can't repeatedly stab or slash nearly as quickly as any modern gun so they better hope their first strike hits true to stop them from unloading their entire clip into you at point blank range. And of course at long range the advantages are even more ridiculous over the melee weapon. So yes, the no gun person still can win, but without any advantage outside of the roleplayer not fighting them outright and just playing a lot better. We should all be able to admit it's not really balanced, but can still be fun if you're into it.

[Maquina]

*Sigh*

Right. Nevamind. It's so lovely when "that might be okay if you're into that sort of thing" is the best that can be said after something like four pages of discussion.

Whelp, can't be helped, I suppose. Gunslingers wouldn't know what to do with themselves if everyone who wasn't a gunslinger didn't heap systemic abuse on them at every given opportunity.

ANYWAYS. @LeeRoy - am I starting a thread or what?!

[ImportantNobody]

*Sigh*

Right. Nevamind. It's so lovely when "that might be okay if you're into that sort of thing" is the best that can be said after something like four pages of discussion.

Whelp, can't be helped, I suppose. Gunslingers wouldn't know what to do with themselves if everyone who wasn't a gunslinger didn't heap systemic abuse on them at every given opportunity.

ANYWAYS. @LeeRoy - am I starting a thread or what?!

@DLL

That's all that really can be said. Personally I'll never again fight a low tier battle with a non gun user versus a gun user in a ranked battle unless they use a musket or something. I might do it for fun or use another gun user. My win ratio will thank me if I learn my lesson early.

[Divinity]

Four pages of discussion is not a gauge for the effectiveness of the argument. I also don't think what's happening here is systemic abuse in any quantity. Multiple people have all agreed that guns outside of high tier fights are intrinsically unfair against any character not totally prepared/outfitted for them, save you are severely nerfing bullet-speed for the sake of fairness, which I admittedly dont see many people do.

This is also not an attack but an outside observation. I have fought gunslingers and spell-guns aplenty and I personally have no real qualm with it provided my every post blocking/evading is not nitpicked to cheese a win because 'but bullet Su fast! Yew can't dodge!' That has happened more times than I care to count, not that it effected the outcome.

I think Dark and Nobody made very good points for their case, however. There were very few actual-scenario defenses provided by the gun slinging side to empower their argument that weren't entirely hinged on characters being prepared beforehand or some kind of deal being struck, or other circumstantial/convenient factor.

Just my two cents.

[Fallenreaper]

<Snipped quote by DLL>

That's all that really can be said. Personally I'll never again fight a low tier battle with a non gun user versus a gun user in a ranked battle unless they use a musket or something. I might do it for fun or use another gun user. My win ratio will thank me if I learn my lesson early.

@ImportantNobody

I won't fight with a human tier vs a gunslinger human tier in an open field, starting at least twenty paces apart... :p I think we all can at least laugh and agree that is a bad idea, right?

[ImportantNobody]

Four pages of discussion is not a gauge for the effectiveness of the argument. I also don't think what's happening here is systemic abuse in any quantity. Multiple people have all agreed that guns outside of high tier fights are intrinsically unfair against any character not totally prepared/outfitted for them, save you are severely nerfing bullet-speed for the sake of fairness, which I admittedly dont see many people do.

This is also not an attack but an outside observation. I have fought gunslingers and spell-guns aplenty and I personally have no real qualm with it provided my every post blocking/evading is not nitpicked to cheese a win because 'but bullet Su fast! Yew can't dodge!' That has happened more times than I care to count, not that it effected the outcome.

I think Dark and Nobody made very good points for their case, however. There were very few actual-scenario defenses provided by the gun slinging side to empower their argument that weren't entirely hinged on characters being prepared beforehand or some kind of deal being struck, or other circumstantial/convenient factor.

Just my two cents.

@Divinity

Agreed. It's not abuse to question what tier guns are best balanced for.

Nerfing bullet speed in a tournament didn't end well for a lot of people, from past experience.

In one of my cases it was against a computer system that gave the gun perfect accuracy so I can't say everyone with a gun would claim to be perfectly accuracy. My fault for agreeing to a battle against it. However, like you mention, a lot of this is trust/deals, so some random person you're up against could very well claim that their gun should always hit if they have a line of sight to the target and do lethal damage because they are a great shot. Some of you guys may be able to build my trust in guns to make me comfortable in saying, "no, that missed" or "even though it hit my chest I keep going" without starting a fight. I would feel bad if they kept shooting and me saying their bullets are not really doing much at all because of the possibility that is the case, so why not make it so. I wouldn't know how far I could take it without the trust because I might worry about going overboard and just let any bullet drop me like a fly.

<Snipped quote by ImportantNobody>

I won't fight with a human tier vs a gunslinger human tier in an open field, starting at least twenty paces apart... :p I think we all can at least laugh and agree with that is a bad idea, right?

@Fallenreaper

Yeah. Bad idea. XD

[Maquina]

The 'Systemic Abuse' isn't in the last four pages so much as it is what gunslingers in general have been dealing with for the last however-many-years-we've-been-doing-this. And to be fair: people in here are mostly comparing it to a particularly squicky bedroom fetish: "Well, if you like that sort of thing, I guess that's okay...y'know, so long as you do it off somewhere me and the rest of civilized roleplaying can't see it. I mean, it's only polite."

is it really any wonder folks like LR and myself might get just a li'l tired of dealing with that sort of attitude?

Anyways. Doesn't really matter in the long run, as infuriating as it is to deal with in the short term. Discussion went all kinds of weird anyways, prolly not the thread for this. Apologies for the threadjack. I'm going to assume LR wants me to start a thread and get writing until/unless he says otherwise.

[LeeRoy]

@DLLyou go ahead and start

[Divinity]

[last comment on the topic. I swear >_>]

I didn't read any of what was said to you in the condescending tone you're taking it. I dont think there's some hidden social consciousness here where we all secretly hate you and all other gunslingers. I like guns, myself.

I think its less an ad hominem against your preference, and more out of respect for the tier. They feel it simply doesn't belong for various reasons given in their counter-arguments. I can't speak for them, but I really dont think they're telling you to go 'fuck off if you wanna do the noob gun shit', but saying if you're that into it, and its really your thing, then do it with those who feel like you do. Like Lee. But bringing a gun to a fight with others here may not bode so well, is all I think they'd like you to understand. And not because its nooby, or cheap, but because they feel guns are just too versatile, and maybe unfair to their characters.

K. Rant end. Happy posting.

[Fallenreaper]

I gave Jacer a gun, but put my own twist on it because honestly I thought it was rather neat to use a bit of gunslinger. If I wasn't one bit curious or interested in playing a fighter with a gun, after reading SKallagrim's gun tutorial, I wouldn't have bothered really and stuck to melee. Especially if I hated it or felt it never belonged in the arena at all. *shrugs* We're all allowed our assumptions I believe and those are my last words on the topic.

[Darth]

@DLL

I understand that being told something along the lines of "hurr durr you're shit because you use guns" is grating, but here's the thing: that's not what I'm saying, so while I agree that it's entirely unfair for someone to have that attitude, I don't think it has much of anything to do with what I've been saying in my posts. I've never dismissed guns as an entertaining and legitimate tool for characters to use, all I've said -- for the entirety of my posts -- is that, given the way they operate, they're not fair for mild powers play. So, while I sympathize with people getting shat on just because they like playing with firearms, that's not really what's happening in my posts. I don't possess or promote that attitude. Never have.

Is it possible to have a mild powered gun fight? Yes. Is it possible to gear and tool two mild powered characters specifically to have some kind of running gun-fight? Sure. Both of these things are entirely possible. I would even encourage people to do so, if that's what they want to do.

That's not how we dictate when something is or isn't fair, though. It's not a question of possibility or probability. I come from a community that cohered strongly around tournaments, so I'll use that as an example, but you can apply the same reasoning to entire communities:

Let's say I'm running a mild-poweres tournament. Thirty-odd people submit character profiles for the event. Chances are, I already have a fair gauge of where the community plays at, and now I have access to their profiles. If I look through them and I see that 28 out of 32 characters are in no way, shape, or form equipped to reasonably deal with gunfire, then I can draw the conclusion that firearms wouldn't be a fair inclusion for the tier of power the tournament is playing at. When I said "reasonably deal with", what I'm really looking at is how much of an advantage the firearm will provide, and in mild powers, a firearm is really an ability-set that can fire projectiles without a cooldown or prep, so it's a little too advantageous. It'd be like someone's profile saying they can shoot 200mph fireballs every turn for ten turns in a row. I wouldn't think that's acceptable at mild powers any more than I would consider firearms balanced.

The same thing goes for communities at a macro level, and that's where the issue comes from: most characters in that community might not be equipped to reasonably deal with firearms at that level of power. That doesn't mean it's not possible to gear a character specifically for that purpose. It doesn't mean that you can't make it work. When you're discussing if something is fair or balanced, it's more a question of how it's going to function against most characters, not against a few who fit into a specific niche. In the majority of communities I've seen where mild powers is de rigueur for fighting, the characters aren't really built to handle a gun-fight. They're built, as you said, to handle a magic-duel-street-brawl sort of rumble.

Every tier of power is like that. Once you go high enough in power, most of the characters in lower tiers become more or less inconsequential. On the reverse, the lower in power you go, the more effective certain powers and pieces of equipment are.

Again, it's not that firearms are impossible to use at mild powers, it's that they're going to be too much of an advantage against a majority of characters, at least in a specific community. So while I can appreciate that people are a little tired of the condescendingly dismissive attitude that they get from some people, I also don't think it has much bearing on what I'm saying because there's been nothing insulting in my arguments, and it's not systemic abuse for people who play at a specific tier of power to disallow items that give too much of an advantage at that tier.

If two people get together and said "We're going to have a mild powers gunfight" and they set-up their characters for it, or if someone wanted to run a tournament where it was mild powers + guns under the premise that participating characters are designed for that niche, then more power to them. I'd support the latter -- I pretty much support any tournament that's run with an eye for detail. Both of those things are well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that people have valid, understandable reasons for keeping firearms outside of mild powers.

On that note, even though I'm busy with my own project: if someone does want to run a tournament centered around characters who are designed to fit the mild powers niche with the addition of gunplay in order to let people play with the idea, I'd be up for helping hammer out the rules and/or provide some brainstorming on what kind of characters could work in that niche. Just because I think firearms are inbalanced for most mild powers characters doesn't mean I'm not happy to see someone play with the specific niche where they can work. I'm basically all-for any kind of competitive event provided it's operated properly.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by Darth>

A paintball-style run-and-gun battle with athletic parkouring soldiers using their guns, their wits, and their moxie is...well, you never see it because literally everyone assumes that if you shoot, you hit, and if you hit, the other guy dies.

@DLL

My second fight ever was exactly that, a duel between two assassins with firearms, cover and parkour galore. Ask ImportantNobody about it, it was their tournament.

[LeeRoy]

It really irks the fuck out of me when folks keep on about Mild powers when I was talking about Human Level non-powered. You know, it really proves that they didn't actually read a fucking word I said.

[Starfall]

@Darth

My character is a gun and he shoots fists. Am I in yet?