[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Innue]

Yo skalla, nice to see you again.

I agree with you pretty much all the way, I think the tier system is an easier format for those who want to have more 'themed' battles

for example a swordsman fighting a swordsman, or some sort of warlock fighting a phantom with similar ability levels, and it also pushes some players to not just create demon vampire overlords who can summon meteors and do somersaults.

But its more of a optional guide than a rule, its there for people who need it.

@Dynamo Frokane

I think the tier system does the exact opposite. Not only does it make it combat seem even more excessively complicated for newcomers, it often ends up separating characters that are likely similar in power scope but due to technicalities in different tiers. I've seen that one happen quite often in tier lists (not necessarily specifically the main one RPG used).

My system was more focused on separating the types of powers by the mechanics of them. Essentially was a three tiered system with a 'bridge' between them. T1 obviously was no powers. T2 was basic magical mechanics such as low scope fire blasts/elemental manipulation, summoning, etc. T3 was manipulation of reality/high level creation magic. Obviously this is an shortened version, but provides the concept. If you wanted mainly fist combat with mild powers you'd basically use a T1.5. Higher scope magic would fall under T2.5, but doesn't extend into the construction/deconstruction of reality/the universe.

[Innue]

Maybe a useful inclusion would be to construct a simple tier system then have a thread where people could request classification of said character?

[Rilla]

Personally if they do have another PW then I think any additions should be approved by the GM and added in AFTER the fight, perhaps with some sort of training post to accompany it. So you aren't just adding moves willy nilly and then going back to fight again then adding more and continually trying.

[Rilla]

There could be a Glossary/FAQ Thread.

[Skallagrim]

Oh. Yeah. Well he uses cards for combat. For instance a demon themed deck. Each card has a different ability that has as many uses as charges. Each has a God or Goddess and a King or Queen.

Currently my main issue is to whether I have him play the cards like YGO or whether he holds and charges them before usage. Currently I have it towards the former, though the last bit may help more with defensive purposes. Another issue is his defenses as the cards are his weapons and physically he won't be much to talk about.

@Rilla

Remember the fight we had when I used Kolskagg? He used runes (the Viking rune stones) similar to the way you are thinking of using the cards.

[MelonHead]

I agree heavily though with Skall about the tier system. I feel like when they try to get constructed they end up getting too specific for certain instances while not providing the actual break in power they were designed to. I am used to a more simple system like Skall is (maybe a bit more specific), but there were effectively only a few levels of play and you could construct rules for the fight within those if needed for more specificity.

---

I used to have a character that used standard playing cards/illusion magic. It's a fun concept to play with. ^.^

@Innue

I'm inclined to agree with this, the tier system usually used by the guild seems very specific with its ten power categories, but honestly it doesn't make any sense in regards to the jumps in power. You would be better off with three very distinct but more general categories with a high-low-medium style. Because at the moment a battle between a T2 and T4 is like the difference between a medieval knight and a fighter jet. T1 and T2 might as well be in their own scrub category, because they can only fight eachother. Then when you chuck in guns and other weapons it gets even more confusing.

At that point you need T1-2 Low tech and T1-2 high tech, it just gets more and more difficult to categorize anything. This isn't a huge issue when you're having one on one battles with consent on both sides, but tournament play with a varied amount of diverse characters its a nightmare. It seems like your only real choice is between limiting the diversity of characters which can enter a continual universe or having swordsmen shot to death by gunmen because they were unlucky enough to end up in a field.

I don't have the answers though, unfortunately.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Remember the fight we had when I used Kolskagg? He used runes (the Viking rune stones) similar to the way you are thinking of using the cards.

@Skallagrim

Yeah. I do. I was actually gonna detail out the cards and have a judge do the shuffling and go from There.

[ImportantNobody]

The tier system I have in place for my own multiverse setting I'm starting up might be bad to try and get multiple people balancing characters well based off it but here it goes just in case.

A score of 1 represents the fighting power of a normal human. Each rank is 8 times more powerful then the last rank. Lets say Bruce Lee is as good of a fighter to take on 10 normal humans (you could make an argument that he could fight more but that's besides the point for the example). This would put him into E rank (the ranks found below with how many normal humans they could take on). There are three numbers in each rank to offer further distinction. The first number is just E rank, the next E+, and the last E++. Bruce Lee would be a simple E rank due to not being able to fight at least 16 normal humans. There are special ranks above S for legendary, gods, etc. Of course an A rank compared to an F rank being able to be roughly 33,000, these numbers seem to loose purpose after a certain point but still pretty good in knowing that they can fight around 8 B ranks.

F- 1, 2, 4
E- 8, 16, 32
D- 64, 128, 256
C- 512, 1024, 2048
B- 4096, 8192, 16384
A- 32768, 65536, 131072
S-262144, 524288, 1048576

[MelonHead]

The tier system I have in place for my own multiverse setting I'm starting up might be bad to try and get multiple people balancing characters well based off it but here it goes just in case.

A score of 1 represents the fighting power of a normal human. Each rank is 8 times more powerful then the next rank. Lets say Bruce Lee is as good of a fighter to take on 10 normal humans (you could make an argument that he could fight more but that's besides the point for the example). This would put him into E rank (the ranks found below with how many normal humans they could take on). There are three numbers in each rank to offer further distinction. The first number is just E rank, the next E+, and the last E++. Bruce Lee would be a simple E rank due to not being able to fight at least 16 normal humans. There are special ranks above S for legendary, gods, etc. Of course an A rank compared to an F rank being able to be roughly 33,000, these numbers seem to loose purpose after a certain point but still pretty good in knowing that they can fight around 8 B ranks.

F- 1, 2, 4
E- 8, 16, 32
D- 64, 128, 256
C- 512, 1024, 2048
B- 4096, 8192, 16384
A- 32768, 65536, 131072
S-262144, 524288, 1048576

@ImportantNobody

I was trying to work around a system something like this at one point, but I had to abandon it past a certain point because it began to mean less and less. Ultimately, there is no limit to the amount of ordinary humans even a fairly mid-tier character could kill, if it's a fist fight, it just doesn't work properly as a method of categorization. (In my opinion.)

At lower tiers it does make some sense, though I preferred to gauge it by the strength and whatnot of an ordinary human.

[ImportantNobody]

<Snipped quote by ImportantNobody>

I was trying to work around a system something like this at one point, but I had to abandon it past a certain point because it began to mean less and less. Ultimately, there is no limit to the amount of ordinary humans even a fairly mid-tier character could kill, if it's a fist fight, it just doesn't work properly as a method of categorization. (In my opinion.)

@MelonHead

That point is brought up in the web comic I'm thinking of ideas for. The main heroes are S rank and basically wipe out (non-lethally) the normal soldiers as if they were butterflies. They wonder why this bad guy group ever thought of doing the plan that the heroes thought the bad guys were up to with soldiers of that caliber due to the odds of them winning were practically 0%. Of course these soldiers weren't really in on it and the bad guys had far more powerful people under their command. Mid tier is about D for this multiverse even if not in the middle of the numbers, which people fall into much more rarely.

[MelonHead]

Of course, the most complicated and debate inducing factor spitting in the face of any tier system is magic, and all its many unwholesome and impossible to categorize effects. What tier is a fireball? How about illusions? Is my assault rifle toting soldier equal to your fireball throwing mage? Who the hell knows.

[Innue]

I would have to agree with Melon on that.

[ImportantNobody]

My main problem with the used tier system was that someone can shoot a machinegun at a lower tier, but if someone wants to use magic to create the exact same effect they would have to be at a much higher tier. Basically, technology trumps everything besides high tier magic.

[Innue]

Of course, the most complicated and debate inducing factor spitting in the face of any tier system is magic, and all its many unwholesome and impossible to categorize effects. What tier is a fireball? How about illusions? Is my assault rifle toting soldier equal to your fireball throwing mage? Who the hell knows.

@MelonHead

This is partially why tier lists have irked me in the past - they try to account for all of these eventualities (and while I get why) and just making it messier and messier.

At some point it just has to be a judgment call of the individuals participating. Using a very simple system and then having people construct specific rules for their own individual battle that are then agreed upon is probably a good way to consider going.

[ImportantNobody]

My mutliverse gets away with sword users beating gun users is that guns don't care how powerful the person is who's shooting, it still only fires with the same bullet power. Someone with the strength of a dragon using a sword would demolish a target with far more power. Plus they have "shields" made of their energy so that they can survive getting knocked through walls and yes, bullets to some extent.

[Little Bird]

I've always gravitated towards the ten-tier system that the old guild used to use, even so far as to apply it to setting up my own arenas. And It's never really seemed problematic to me how different a tier 2 vs tier 4 is. Granted I've never seen a battle like that play out, and frankly, I would never enter a battle without my character being equal to or, at worse, one tier under my opponents. Though it does seem that the key to running that system evenly is slotting tiers for each of a character's combat items (IE having strength at Tier 2, Speed at Tier 1, but technology/weapons at Tier 3. I think the guild folks actually took to that for a little while.

A facet that I've seen that might be of use to establishing where to draw lines with powers is the less-with-more vs. more-with-less. A character, say, with a list of twenty spells, should be somewhat inflexible with what each individual spell can actually accomplish. While their spells might serve a variety of functions, their power would be a bit toned down. On the flip side, a character might be given one or two overarching abilities that can offer higher levels of power.

As for a PW/Multiverse/Continuum, I've always insisted that recreating and mapping out a world specifically for an arena continuum made things more complicated and difficult to actually maintain. The longest lasting continuum that I've seen was simply established through a collective of battles that were, on the agreement of the players, tied into the histories of their characters. An arena-based PW can be something so simple as saying that Battle B is happening in continuity of Battle A, and so on. Naturally, this system would need its rules established, and for people to manufacture an inciting incident that establishes it.

We could pretty much establish lore and whatnot as we move along, save for whatever locale/force stands at the center of the PW, whether it be some event or cosmic anomaly that somehow facilitates the converging of characters from multiple universes.

[ShidenBlades]

I took the time to read over the posts and get the general censous that people are unhappy with the Tier Systems and how poorly the reflect characters and are more hindering than they are helpful. Working off of that idea, why not simply ebolish the Tier System or any Ranking System for that matter?

It will be impossible to come up with an all encomposing system, and less is usually more anyways. I think it would be wise to simply point out the banned abilities. Time Manipulation, Self Healing, Battlefield Teleporting and anything else the powers that be decide.

Put a maximum power limit and let anything under that be made. Give some examples of what is possible, the speed at which things move, the destructive capability of some spells. It will limit some characters, and thats unavoidable regardless of which system you come up with.

Also, I think that the best way to temper character abilities is by having a team of people responsible for checking over characters and essentially giving it a thumbs up or down.

You could also then tie it to a setting. Maybe the setting restrics, limits, or straight up removes abilities. Then people could play the super power characters they've had for years and have 'some reason' as to why they can no longer blow up planets. Everyone would be brought to a relative equal playing field where writing skill will matter more than powers. All that is needed is a reason for people to want to fight.

I'm rambling at this point...but thats my two cents.

[Skallagrim]

Shiden that is what the original T1 did. Realistic,enhanced and powered. That was it. Then any additional rules were agreed upon. No character in a set was inherently more powerful than another because of the way T1 is structured.

[ShidenBlades]

It's similiar, yes, but not the same. You are labeling 3 different power levels. I am suggesting having 0. Just an upper limit.

[Rilla]

I wouldn't mind a return to that, so to speak, but I think it would be slightly difficult in a MV setting.

Also for challenges it would help, though either both would have to agree on each others characters, or have a judge come in and agree on them. My first priority however is to hash out the ranked/challenges stuff so Mahz can start that - even If I can't participate