[OOC] Do The Eagles Circle The Mountains? - A Eastern "Middle Ages" Fantasy RP

[Maavoimat]

@Pepperm1nts Thank you for informing me. I would rather leave that location open for other players to use. If no one claims it, I will probably invade inside the actual roleplay. I am assuming territorial gains and losses are allowed.

[Dinh AaronMk]

They're even better when done in an interesting, story-telling way. And of course no insta-grabs.



Boop

[Spoopy Scary]

I like this.

And I want to touch it with my hands.

But my plate is full. Hnnng. wat do???

[Dinh AaronMk]

I like this.

And I want to touch it with my hands.

But my plate is full. Hnnng. wat do???

@Spoopy Scary

Remove the least satisfying from your plate.

[Spoopy Scary]

Whale, I was making characters for one roleplay, though I was only joining it because I was planning a thing with my friend, you know? But she has not had time to work on it lately, so I'm wondering if that's gonna happen. There one on another forum, and another friend is doing an Edge of the Empire TT.

But this looks cool. I feel like this every time I go to a buffet.

Anyway, let's assume this happens: would it be possible to run a "corporate country" so to speak? Not a literal country for all intents and purposes, but multiple companies and businesses where the owners and CEOs are essentially faces, and are actually under the control of one secret and powerful entrepreneur. Even has black market ties and the like, and while not a country, essentially has the same power as one. Or would this not be something I'd have right off that bat and that you would rather have me build this super-corporation from the ground up? Starting as, say, a hirable spy network?

You know, in the name of capitalism.

Not sure if I made it clear yet, but hi! -Patches

[Dinh AaronMk]

I don't even know if that would be up to the scope of a medieval RP.

Of the things that come with this sort of thing, The Patriots isn't one.

[Spoopy Scary]

Ah, right. I somehow forgot big business wasn't a thing. Or something. I probably also forgot somewhere along the line in my train of thought that this was medieval. I ran away with the idea.

And hey, I never said I'd be dominating countries from the inside. The shtick was to make everyone owe me money. So I guess a country big on trade and economics would be the next best thing?

[TheSovereignGrave]

You could make a state that's essentially ruled by wealthy Merchant Princes and their ilk.

[Spoopy Scary]

That's a good one, too! I was kinda thinking of an oligarchy/plutocracy and that seems to fit pretty closely.

[Dinh AaronMk]

And then you can be in mercantile competition with Byrd. ;D

[Spoopy Scary]

I must come up with a dastardly plan to put him in financial debt. Then, next... dominating the black market.

Assuming the medieval has a black market.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I think I talked to Vilage about that once and the answer we came up with was: it didn't exist.

At least not in the fields that we know of today. There was most likely a drug trade that no one bothered with because no one cared. The use of ganja comes up a lot in things like the original Alladin. And the smoking of Hashish was fairly common in the Arab world.

[Byrd Man]

Maybe not a black market per say, but I did kind of to set up something similar to one in my nation.

[Dinh AaronMk]

The Witcher has one in their world for their drug Fisstech. So I suppose one isn't completely out of the question.

[Vilageidiotx]

Merchant states tended to be Oligarchies.

It can definitely happen in a medieval context. Most medieval style states were governed through power by land ownership, but there were some places where local land lords could not compete with the merchants in terms of practicable power. Renaissance Italy is the most famous example of this, though Germany had examples of this phenomena as well. This was especially common in Europe because of the importance of eastern trade to the European market. Theoretically, most Merchant states begin with the nobles being supplanted by the Merchants. It might not be some shady illuminati type thing, but shady illuminati type things are for people who don't understand human behavior and need to simplify it my creating singular hive minds.

If you are going to recreate a medieval version of this, you have to boil these things down to their essentials. Medieval people do not have savings accounts unless you count the coins they sew into their mattresses. High level economics centers around your ability to give out loans and your relationship with long distance trade. Insurance is the guy selling binders on the dock. Instead of a stock market, you have merchants banding together to invest in a voyage in exchange for an equal split of the profit. Banks are guys in the market writing checks that look more like IOU's than anything else, which are being purchased (with interest) by travelers afraid of being robbed and can be exchanged for money at any banker in league with the check-writer (and he has friends in ever important port, so you don't have to worry about that. If he writes too many false checks he know's he'll be stabbed by some sailor anyway, or hanged by the captain of the guard if there are actually laws in place about this sort of thing).

If you want to do a shady company style plot, I would go with the bankers. Look at the Templars, and the rise of the Medici's, to see how this is done in an old school context. Remember that this is a world devoid of Adam Smith's. There are no Free Trade Agreements, and we don't have the communication systems that make large corporations doable. It's unlikely anybody in this culture understands simple economic concepts like "inflation", considering how Rome fought their inflation by hanging coin clippers and minting more coinage because they thought the material in the previous ones must have been inferior to have depreciated in value. I am pretty sure one of the biggest parts of the Medici's rise to power is that they were an early adopter of double entry bookkeeping (to simple modern folk, medieval Quicken.) In this culture, "interest rates" aren't controlled, but are something you haggle with the town Jew over if you need a loan for a set of armor to go-a-crusading with (you'll pay him back with a loaf of sugar from the holy land when you get back because that shit is in vogue now).

I use Europe as the model because I don't really know how this worked beyond Europe and the Middle East. I would assume India worked the same way (minus a town Jew), but I don't recall ever hearing of any banking systems that were not European. I'm just spitting this shit off the top of my head though. You might need to google for the details here.

EDIT: Black markets weren't much of a thing because there wasn't enough regulation to make them practical. Simply put, you need shit that is both illegal and affordable for there to be a noticeable black market for it.

[Chapatrap]

I've been very lazy. I've hit a bit of a writers block, I think.

I'm sorry Byrd/Aaron/Mihndar for not posting in this/FoE/PoW/Civilisations.

[Dinh AaronMk]

@Vilageidiotx
When it comes to the east the Chinese have an operating banking system that managed things like loan, borrowing, saving, and interest rates. However the nature of Chinese banks were different from the western style of banking you'd see in Europe later on. Namely they focused on lending out to people they had closer relationships with like family or friends who may own a business. Or just the local village or town maybe.

The general inherent weaknesses of traditional Chinese Law at the time discouraged larger-reaching and more complex banking because it was just unstable or not very viable. So you'd see a lot of depositing for the long-term, short term shit, and floating.

And the two major systems the Chinese had didn't try to compete like Goldman-Sachs and... Whoever else. In the Chinese environment they just sort of bounced off of each other. But then again this probably lends to Chinese law not being a great environment to what we see as western banking and they did it to maintain each other's Shanxi and Yangxi based banks so they exchange Song paper notes with Mongolian sheep pelts or whatever the Vietnamese traded in; lizards I guess.

Wiki shit I just blatantly ripped this from.

And in India there's parts of the Vedas that detail and discuss unethical money lending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_India#History

But that's about as far as I can get while trying to pay half-attention in class.

But most likely given the "primitive" way the land is organized and connected the sort of European model of "Dude A writes IOU to dude B with interest who later turns it into Dude C who pays him what the IOU is worth" would be more than workable. We could assume the Visha - in their supposed enlightenment - had a better understanding born out of the centralization of their realm. But the details or proper understanding of the methods left the world with their automatons when their world caved in.

[Vilageidiotx]

So it's very similar, but without the added impetus of overseas trade or long distance military expeditions.

EDIT: And the Vietnamese no doubt traded in Pho. There isn't another culture on this earth that can make a broth that stands up to Vietnamese broth.

[Dinh AaronMk]

So it's very similar, but without the added impetus of overseas trade or long distance military expeditions.

EDIT: And the Vietnamese no doubt traded in Pho. There isn't another culture on this earth that can make a broth that stands up to Vietnamese broth.

@Vilageidiotx

Probably more to the tune of, "How can we pay off the Mongols and Jurchens to keep them from climbing our walls!"

[Spoopy Scary]

Merchant states tended to be Oligarchies.

It can definitely happen in a medieval context. Most medieval style states were governed through power by land ownership, but there were some places where local land lords could not compete with the merchants in terms of practicable power. Renaissance Italy is the most famous example of this, though Germany had examples of this phenomena as well. This was especially common in Europe because of the importance of eastern trade to the European market. Theoretically, most Merchant states begin with the nobles being supplanted by the Merchants. It might not be some shady illuminati type thing, but shady illuminati type things are for people who don't understand human behavior and need to simplify it my creating singular hive minds.

If you are going to recreate a medieval version of this, you have to boil these things down to their essentials. Medieval people do not have savings accounts unless you count the coins they sew into their mattresses. High level economics centers around your ability to give out loans and your relationship with long distance trade. Insurance is the guy selling binders on the dock. Instead of a stock market, you have merchants banding together to invest in a voyage in exchange for an equal split of the profit. Banks are guys in the market writing checks that look more like IOU's than anything else, which are being purchased (with interest) by travelers afraid of being robbed and can be exchanged for money at any banker in league with the check-writer (and he has friends in ever important port, so you don't have to worry about that. If he writes too many false checks he know's he'll be stabbed by some sailor anyway, or hanged by the captain of the guard if there are actually laws in place about this sort of thing).

If you want to do a shady company style plot, I would go with the bankers. Look at the Templars, and the rise of the Medici's, to see how this is done in an old school context. Remember that this is a world devoid of Adam Smith's. There are no Free Trade Agreements, and we don't have the communication systems that make large corporations doable. It's unlikely anybody in this culture understands simple economic concepts like "inflation", considering how Rome fought their inflation by hanging coin clippers and minting more coinage because they thought the material in the previous ones must have been inferior to have depreciated in value. I am pretty sure one of the biggest parts of the Medici's rise to power is that they were an early adopter of double entry bookkeeping (to simple modern folk, medieval Quicken.) In this culture, "interest rates" aren't controlled, but are something you haggle with the town Jew over if you need a loan for a set of armor to go-a-crusading with (you'll pay him back with a loaf of sugar from the holy land when you get back because that shit is in vogue now).

I use Europe as the model because I don't really know how this worked beyond Europe and the Middle East. I would assume India worked the same way (minus a town Jew), but I don't recall ever hearing of any banking systems that were not European. I'm just spitting this shit off the top of my head though. You might need to google for the details here.

EDIT: Black markets weren't much of a thing because there wasn't enough regulation to make them practical. Simply put, you need shit that is both illegal and affordable for there to be a noticeable black market for it.

@Vilageidiotx

This is very cool and helpful information, so thanks for that. The banking seems like a good practice, especially if that banker has a far and wide influence, and would be good for a merchant after they got their career off the ground. But assuming the merchant is already wealthy: wouldn't it also be viable to go around and place investments in small private businesses? To get those businesses what they need and off the ground in exchange for a share of their profits. Going around and doing that for multiple merchants eventually leads to you earning income from all over the place. You hire a guy with a wagon to pick up the cash and some mercenaries to escort him, they come back, pay them, and now you have a pile of currency in your basement. Eventually, especially for viable business ideas, you can buy them out.

A corporation might not work well, because like you said, there's a lack of effective communication. But you can still own plenty of different shops and whatnot, also act as an investor, and monopolize an area of trade in particular regions.