[OOC] Black Mountain Tournament: Iolanthe vs Sigurd

[MelonHead]

Probably, if he can't cut through forearm armour with his steel blade this fight would be pointless, your character would be nigh on unassailable.

[MelonHead]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying your character is doing with her shield here. She transitioned from her rightward punch (to deflect the sword) into what exactly? Holding out her left arm vertically or horizontally? I fail to see how the end result you're intending is possible from the original action of deflecting the blade. It literally requires the shield to move in the opposite direction.

[Chimera]

She's pushing the fuss of her shield under Sigurd's arm. Both steeled items were very close, she took advantage of the amount of time it'd take Sigurd to raise and lower his sword in to another slash to block his second attack at the base, his arm. She's shorter than him, making it easier for her to glue her shield to his right arm, or wedge it in to his armpit. The angle of her shield would begin diagonally, pushing his arm away, and eventually become horizontal over her head as she ducked and continued her spear-sweep - Which would've taken roughly 3 posts to land... by now. Which I'd assume gives Sigurd no time to defend against it.

[MelonHead]

Your character's spear sweep isn't actually possible, at least not the way you've written it. Sigurd is three feet away, the handle is two feet long, unless Iolanthe is literally holding her arm fully extended downwards there is no way the foot of steel past the handle can be under Sigurd's shield menacing his feet unless the five foot of steel behind it were actually plunged into the ground. -Unless- she is holding the spear behind her body, in which case I really don't think it would be possible to generate any power in a sweep.

Regardless, I highly doubt a sweep of this kind would be possible with human strength, and if it were it definitely wouldn't be cutting straight through leather boots and severing tendons. You can ask Pollen for a ruling if you want, but from my understanding of how you've written the scene it doesn't make sense.

Also bearing in mind Sigurd is still basically off to her left, leaving literally no wind-up room for the lance in the first place. I don't have an eight foot pole and a tall person with a shield to visualise it, but I highly doubt its physically possible.

[Chimera]

Iolanthe's spear sweep is possible. If you thought it was impossible from the beginning, which was what... two posts ago, why didn't you tell me about it then?

Iolanthe lowered her arm and the spear initially for a sweep, just as you assume. The power isn't coming just from the slashing motion, however, but a secondary stabbing motion she's making the minute she was able to sneak Hyperion underneath Sigurd's shield, breaching his guard. There's absolutely no way I see Sigurd blocking the spear now, since he swung his shield off idle to the side, and relied too much on his attack forcing Iolanthe's hand to retract. She'd have only needed a 1-2ft gap in the first place to make this happen. Remember, she's also slightly ducking, and the whole spear is 6ft in length! The sweep initially aimed at his feet would've been weak, yes, however it is being re-adjusted, and aimed to stab in-between his legs, thus being given new momentum, new kinetic force, and mortal danger.

There's a chance the blade's end might slash the left side of his left leg first, however since you stated Sigurd is now leading with his right, I assumed both of his legs are in the path of danger, and his left leg might actually be a whole 6ft away. Although it's a stabbing motion, she's relying on the edge of her blade, making the damage it'd deal a 'slicing' wound.

Also, the heat from her spear is strong enough to melt metal. Leather and fur might ignite, or be burned to ash with ease.

[MelonHead]

At first, I was confused as to your character's intent with the spear. You mentioned trying to tangle up Sigurd's feet, only in the most recent post did that transfer into cutting straight through his boots and severing tendons.

'Its blade is six feet long, its handle two,' so it's eight feet long.

What you'd be talking about then would be a push cut, which would only be possible if you could actually push the blade. Last I checked the end of the spear was dragging along the ground, when in actuality for this angle to be plausible it would actually have to be about two feet into the ground.

Finally, your character is pivoting away on their right foot, which is certainly conductive to retracting the spear, but not at all useful in a push cut or a sweep. A pull cut might have been possible, though once again the angle would be a massive hindrance as you're targeting an immensely low point on Sigurd's body to try and bypass the shield and Sigurd is extremely close to your character.

Ultimately, unless you're arguing your weapon has lightsaber like qualities it's not going to have sufficient force to do anything, provided it could even be manipulated into getting under Sigurd's shield, which is highly unlikely (as it is not idling as you say, but actually covering his left side while opening space for him to move his sword around.)

Also, Sigurd really wasn't relying on anything, there is literally no historical precedent ever of a spear being used in that fashion in a harmful way, except for its heat magic which Sigurd is still unaware of. And a spear would be immensely more manoeuvrable than an eight foot lance. Does your character have superstrength after all? If that's the case I'd buy it, if not its humanly impossible, or at least highly improbable.

[Chimera]

I think it's more of a 'saw cut' motion. The heat from that blade, you can't ignored due to inconvenience.

The pivot indeed reduced how strong her attack would be, and in fact would make it easier for her to sneak its full length under Sigurd's shield, which is covering his left side... and not his lower left side. Also, since she's ducking, her knuckles could very well be dragging across the ground as well, however they weren't, so I didn't mention that.

The main issue here, is that the blade breached Sigurd's guard, that's what I don't see your argument denying. The second stab motion she's making is all the cut she needs to do whatever damage she can from her current position. Be that a mere flesh wound, or a grievous gash, that's up to you... or Drifting Pollen.

If it was a lightsaber, this battle would have already ended.

[MelonHead]

The blade literally hasn't breached Sigurd's guard though, I just explained how that would be impossible at the current proximity due to the length of the weapon. The fact that you just said you thought the weapon was six feet long and yet it's clearly labelled as eight feet long in the CS proves your misinterpreting the situation.

I'll happily ask Drifting Pollen to interpret the situation, honestly I can only assume I must be misreading it somehow because it's literally impossible in my mind unless your character has inhuman strength, which I'm starting to assume she must have considering she outpaced Sigurd's sword strike with a fifteen pound shield.

[Chimera]

The blade is 6ft. Hilt is 2ft. I always state the 'blade' as 6ft.

Pollen is already reading the fight... so I figure we'll hear an explanation soon.

That 15 pound shield was being aimed at Sigurd's arm before he attempted a second sword slash.

2 feet of space is between Iolanthe and Sigurd, roughly. If his left half is his farthest point, that's another 1-2 feet. The span of Iolanthe's body is another 1-2 feet, once she pivots so that her spear-held arm is practically withdrawing behind her. There's more than enough toes in that math equation.

[MelonHead]

You keep mentioning pivoting, but you only bothered to actually mention it in the most recent post. Everything that has happened before that post has been under the assumption there was no pivoting, you don't even mention the right side of her body in the previous post.

[MelonHead]

Anyway, I don't want to influence Pollen's interpretation anymore, so I'll see what they say and come back to this tomorrow.

[Drifting Pollen]

Yeah, I'd honestly have to go with Melon here...

His sword is long enough that he wouldn't even have to hold his arm out at this range, and even if he were, it wouldn't be particularly near the hoplon. Unless he was doing something crazy like raising the sword all the way over his head (which wasn't the impression I was getting), it'd be difficult to stop initially. On top of this, Sigurd is stepping forwards with the blow, adding momentum and making it more difficult to stop with the shield. Of course, even with this, the pivot combined with the shield getting in the way would be enough to get her arm out of his blade's path... except her arm has a massive freaking spear in tow, and is trying to maneuver it. Sigurd's arm would likely end up glancing off the shield, but even if it did, it would still be able to swing down far enough to get that long blade down on her forearm. I actually took the time to act out both sides of this as carefully as I could, and from what I can tell the shield hitting the arm as described simply wouldn't hinder its swing enough. Not sure it'd straight-up chop her arm off, since it'd be hard to get the angle of the blade right while practically everything involved is moving, but it'd definitely get through and do some damage, all things considered.

As for the sweep... at first, I was wondering what the issue was, since it seemed like a pretty simple move. On the other hand, upon reviewing Iolanthe's character profile, it's clear what the problem is. Hyperion is a big, long, and likely quite heavy weapon, and using it to make quick slashes at the legs is definitely not an easy feat... it's possible, yes, based on the positioning, to get it under the shield and make a quick strike at the leg, but to do that you'd need to literally drag its point across the ground, and then getting it up to the freaking thigh after that is... I guess it's possible, considering Iolanthe knows her weapon well, but it'd be carrying too little momentum by the time it made contact to really do much. Might cut in a little, and it'd certainly hurt because of the heat, but Sigurd wouldn't be getting much more than a graze/burn from that.

That make sense to you both?

[Chimera]

If the shield is being jammed under his arm, wouldn't he still have to wrestle it's weight before being able to make that chop? She's literally forcing her shield in to him, while keeping her right side as far away as she can from him. In one post, she'd lead with her left, then continue pivoting in the current post. I think the two-post mark for most of my movements should be enough. I'm aware that Iolanthe has some bulk on her, but many of her attacks have taken multiple turns to execute. It took 2 just to try and sneak the spear under that shield.

Is the ruling really that Iolanthe must lose a hand? I'd figure bashing his funny bone would be enough. The full length of his sword shouldn't even be getting close.

I say this because - he's wielding the sword in his right arm, and the shield is in Iolanthe's left. He's leading with his right, she's leading with her left. The closes points between them are Iolanthe's shield, and Sigurd's sword. I don't see her defense faltering here, it's just so simple...

EDIT: Also, the fact her shield and his sword already clashed means they're incredibly close. He never made an attempt to side-step a second time, to avoid how close that sword still should be to her hoplon.

[Drifting Pollen]

Is the ruling really that Iolanthe must lose a hand? I'd figure bashing his funny bone would be enough. The full length of his sword shouldn't even be getting close.

I say this because - he's wielding the sword in his right arm, and the shield is in Iolanthe's left. He's leading with his right, she's leading with her left. The closest points between them are Iolanthe's shield, and Sigurd's sword. I don't see her defense faltering here, it's just so simple...

@Chimera

Not so simple as that. Also, as I said, you might not lose the hand.

If you'll recall, when I last left you two, Sigurd's swordpoint was left somewhere just over Iolanthe's right shoulder. It's effectively already past the shield. Additionally, the arm is pretty flexible, and a smack like that simply wouldn't be enough to stop it, especially not with the angles you described... might have been better to just try and get it in the way of his sword.

Sword is not so close. She freaking bashed it out of the way.

EDIT: Look, I didn't budge for Melon, and I won't budge here either. I've been through the posts with as fine a comb as I can muster, spent ages double-checking details on the characters and weapons, and literally acted out the scenarios to make sure the positioning was possible.

Maybe you see things differently, and maybe from your point of view, I am wrong. However, these fights ultimately come down to writing. As an impartial observer, I read carefully over both the posts, and came to the conclusions I did, led there only by what I read. If my interpretation differed from yours, perhaps it would be best to make sure you're expressing yourself clearly.

Tldr; I'm working based on what both players wrote IC, not on arguments made here.

[Chimera]

So a valid result would likely be:

Iolanthe takes a slice to her forearm, cutting a bit in to her bracer.

Sigurd takes a slice to one of his legs, which would be immediately cauterized.

?

@Drifting Pollen

EDIT: Before any edits need to be made IC, or a final conclusion is met, I'd like a few last questions clarified.

1. What will have happened to Iolanthe's shield bash? Where do you imagine it's location? From how I saw it, she was covering herself from the sword blow, whilst simultaneously trying to thrust Sigurd's forearm-sword guard region away. Mentioning there might be a clash of steel where Iolanthe's shield might meet the guard or fuller base of his sword means I'm imagining their positioning different than everyone else.

2. Iolanthe's has inhuman leg strength, meaning her pivot should be a lot faster than we're imagining a normal woman is capable of. Regardless of her giant freaking spear, would this be enough to save her forearm?

3. How heavy do you imagine Hyperion is? This is a mistake on my part not to mention its weight in the initial profile, however I did not imagine it being as heavy as a steel weapon of that size would be. Originally I had it in my mind that the lance would be about 15lbs max.

[MelonHead]

The weights are pretty much the crux of my argument, another debilitating factor is that the shield is also exceedingly heavy, (it should definitely be heavier than 15 pounds that you state, but 15 pounds is still weighty.) so gravity would actually be against you in trying to stop the downwards momentum of the sword strike.

I'm happy to accept that either she suffers some form of fracture (weakening the wrist/arm) or the blade cuts through the armour but only enough to cause a pretty painful bleeding wound, not enough to completely disable the forearm/wrist but enough that the damage is felt.

I'll happily accept some burning, though I don't believe the blade could be moved fast enough to cut because of the pivot coupled with the burning factor it may make it through the tough leather of the boot to burn the skin (I've watched some videos on test cuts, you'd be surprised the difference something as seemingly weak as cloth makes on a cut, tough leather would probably be ample protection if the blade wasn't magic) though it would only be a surface wound IMO and not nearly as debilitating as the longsword strike.

Also, for an object like Hyperion, 15 pounds would still be a serious amount of weight. An ordinary spear is what, around 2-3kg at most? If you're looking at three times the weight of a wooden spear roughly that would be an exceedingly difficult weapon to swing.

Dunno, is that a fair trade-off? Pollen, Chimera?

[Drifting Pollen]

@Chimera I'm going to have to ask you two to work those details out between yourselves, if you can? I'm fine with stepping in when you get stuck on a major disagreement, but I'm not here to referee every minuscule detail of the fight.

@MelonHead Seems fair enough to me. As I mentioned above, though, Chimera's the one you'd want to work things out with.

Tldr; I'm here if you need me, but honestly a lot of this stuff should be fairly simple for both of you to figure out and/or compromise on.

[MelonHead]

You'd think so, but usually when someone writes something they write it because they're certain it will work. So confronting someone on something they're sure of is pretty difficult, it's like how often do you think you've managed to debate someone successfully enough to change their opinion on something? It's hard as hell. Judging from a third party is just fairer and takes the bite out of OOC arguments and whatnot.

[Drifting Pollen]

You'd think so, but usually when someone writes something they write it because they're certain it will work. So confronting someone on something they're sure of is pretty difficult, it's like how often do you think you've managed to debate someone successfully enough to change their opinion on something? It's hard as hell. Judging from a third party is just fairer and takes the bite out of OOC arguments and whatnot.

@MelonHead

Then how do so many fights in the Arena proceed without a judge's intervention?

How did Doc Doctor and DJAtomika finish their fight without ever needing me to step in?

How have I myself been able to work out differences with my opponents in similarly technical and competitive fights?

As I said, I understand it is helpful to have a third party around to decide things sometimes. But you should at least freaking try to understand where the opponent is coming from, and cite what is written in the fight (or in outside sources) if you feel they may need convincing.

If you insist

This entire action required Iolanthe continue pivoting her right leg behind her left, so that once again, she fully lead with her hoplon. She leaned back a bit, to give the side of her shield closest to her head room to thrust up, and would begin ducking under her shield afterwards.

@Chimera

There's the shield.

"a straight double-edged blade of around 85 to 110 cm (33 to 43 in)" - Wikipedia page on longswords.

2 feet of space is between Iolanthe and Sigurd, roughly. The span of Iolanthe's body is another 1-2 feet, once she pivots so that her spear-held arm is practically withdrawing behind her.

@Chimera

Sigurd's arm will take up some of the two feet between them, and assuming the sword is average length for a longsword, that would put it at over three feet long. The pivot, no matter how fast, probably wouldn't get Iolanthe's forearm out of reach.

And 15 lbs is a reasonable weight, Melon agrees that it's heavy. No problem there.

As for the trade-off, I already said it seems pretty fair, based on the ruling and circumstances. Dunno if Chimera will take issue with it or not, but honestly I don't see anything wrong there...

[Chimera]

I know 15lbs for a lance is heavy, however steel of that weight and size would be at least 50lbs, since it's more like a supersized greatsword. I have weights that go well past 15lbs, it's really really not that heavy if you're used to swinging it around. Also much of Hyperion's weight is at the very base of the blade, making it easier to position, as opposed to it being at the very end.

So far it seems like Pollen wants to come to conclusions in the middle of both arguments. Iolanthe's spear breaches Sigurd's guard, warming up his buttcrack a bit, but at the same time his sword's tip will leave a slice in her bracer. I won't write it being a fracture, or a very large wound either, because she's pushing his arm slightly, and pressuring it away, that'll at least count for something.

Wait a moment, and I'll edit in a small cut. I'll be busy the rest of the day and all of Saturday, however...