[OOC] Divinity Vs Dazsos!

[Starfall]

Don't mind me, just shit posting.

[Dazsos]

[Rilla]

Personally, so long as they had a judge, no matter how loosely around, and agreed, then it's ranked. What rules and stuff they go by, as I have maintained, is entirely up to them.

I would love a uniform set of rules, which would make things much easier, but some folks don't like some rules, or understand them, or what have you. Then every other month we are arguing over them, and a new ruleset, etc.

Obviously there are flaws based on this, as any two people can get a third ringer and pad their points.

[MelonHead]

Personally, so long as they had a judge, no matter how loosely around, and agreed, then it's ranked. What rules and stuff they go by, as I have maintained, is entirely up to them.

I would love a uniform set of rules, which would make things much easier, but some folks don't like some rules, or understand them, or what have you. Then every other month we are arguing over them, and a new ruleset, etc.

Obviously there are flaws based on this, as any two people can get a third ringer and pad their points.

@Rilla

If both had to agree on a ruleset for this to count as ranked then this match is already disqualified by your quantifiers, because they evidently did not.

We already have a uniform set of rules, there are plenty of things you just -don't do- in Arena, for example forced hits and attacks that can't be interacted with in any fashion.

Or, as has happened here, people can just insult their opponent until they leave and win that way. Which is frankly quite ridiculous, no one should be rewarded for that sort of conduct in any ranking system.

I'm petitioning that a general rule-set is required for ranked fights from here on out, it doesn't necessarily have to include the balancing method, that can be decided upon by the competitors. But is should definitely include other parts of T1E, such as no force hitting, no attacks that can't be interacted with (for example, flawless mind-control, death auras, other stupid shit like that) no complete immunities to forms of harm (logic permitting, a robot with no blood obviously can't be poisoned) etc.

And outside of that, a fight must have an impartial ranked judge, and if that judge is called into question then that can also be reviewed, by Rilla or by three other members of the ranked community. The character sheets must be sent in full to said Judge with no powers obfuscated or otherwise vague, and the -exact- rules under which the fight is to be carried out should be decided upon by both competitors. If a competitor leaves of forfeits before a fight is over the reason why they left should be taken into account before rewarding their opponent. Rewarding being a bully is not what a ranked system should be about.

If we can't adhere to even the basest form of consistency, then the ranked system is just meaningless numbers.

[MelonHead]

Dazos, you've built up a strawman so high I think it's probably scaring birds away in a ten mile radius.

The fight was to be regulated by a judge, not T1EA, which wasn't mentioned until later. Say I didn't know anything about T1EA (you probably will say that), so I don't have a specific named ruleset to point at when I say I wanna' play a ranked match. This is wrong, it indicates that you can only fight in a ranked setting if you know about T1EA, or another mechanical version of rules, which isn't mentioned as being mandatory. Surely that's elitist, if it's not required but enforced anyways.

@Dazsos

How was it going to be regulated by a judge, if there were no rules?

It's elitist to say you can only fight in a ranked setting if you know the rules? I literally face palmed, here's an analogy to point out how wrong this is.

'It's elitist to say I can't participate in this football tournament just because I don't know how to play football and started punching people in the face and throwing the ball into the net rather than kicking it.' No it isn't, it's common sense. If you don't know the rules of a game, you can't fucking play it. I don't care if people play conkers with their chess pieces in unranked, but if ranked play is to mean a damned thing then the people participating (at least in the same damn match) have to be using a common rule-set or it's not a competition any more, it's just 'doing shit.'

You've only proven how T1EA isn't perfectly fair or catered to the unique, so why should I want to accept the rules of something that can be seen as illogical, or has mechanical glitches that nobody is willing to rework at this current date in time?

No shit, but T1E is still the best that exists, because it covers loads of other issues, for example stopping Corban from instantly killing your character, despite his power-set reasonably allowing him to do just that. I don't see you complaining that Corban couldn't instantly kill you, not to mention it was T1E that allowed you to request to see his sheets powers, even after you accepted it being vague at first.

You can abandon it if you want, but you have to replace it with -something- that is fair. You can't expect an opponent to accept you having a special rule-set that isn't balanced in the slightest. All you had to do to avoid this was decide on a ruleset in the first damned place. What were you doing? Divinity obviously felt that T1E was the default, what did you think you were fighting under? Magic Dazsos rules?

I'd rather get rid of it all together from my life, and instead entrust judgment to someone who is catering their own time to reading over my fight, someone I know and trust to make a solid decision.

That's nice, I have no fucking idea how you expect a judge to make that judgement without any rules to go by other than some vague idea of 'logic rules lolol but no instant killz plz m8' not to mention you completely fucking ignored Innue's 'ruling' and continued to insult your opponent.

It was a judged ranked fight. There's a flaming icon saying 'ranked' next to this topic's title, and someone willing to say they'll judge who wins.

That's great, but you didn't decide on any rules, so your judge was worthless. Not to mention anyone can say a fight is ranked, it only becomes ranked when Rilla decides who wins, that's how Mahz made it so that's how it works.

I hope you enjoyed this condescending experience, I no longer feel any lingering respect for you from defeating Lyzan long ago to humour your shitty debating, so you get the full Melon experience.

[Enki]

Lol @ T1E is the best that exists. That's opinion not fact.

Edit: on my phone and at work is not great combinations to elaborate.

But there are certain things that everyone agrees on. No auto hitting, posts following a logical order etc...

T1E is basically set up to be a gaming system. Those systems can be broken and do not allow for a lot of fun mechanics. This is true with them all not just T1E.

The problem is some people grip to systems and proclaim it to be the best. The truth is there is always issues with whatever you use and there is no best system. Just personal preference.

[MelonHead]

I never said 'T1E is objectively the best system ever devised on god's green earth'. Everything I've said has been my opinion. Did you go to Dazsos' strawman school of debate? If that's all you had to add, feel free to walk back out the way you came, Enki.

That being said, every other form of combat balance I've seen has been exceedingly poor. Only T1E completely negates power creep, balancing out fights without the need for dice rolls or coin flips. It is in my opinion the best method of control for a ranked (AKA a competitive) setting. Cool-downs are unbalanced for fighting because the penalty comes after the pay-off, it's like the difference between solar beam and hyper beam, one is objectively better than the other. If you kill your opponent it doesn't matter if you have to wait a turn to charge afterwords, if you have to wait around and do nothing for a turn before-hand your opponent can see it coming and get a hit in first, better balancing the fact that your ability is OP.

Mana pools have the same issue. People seem to expect fights to last forever and badly balance their mana so that they're really never at any risk of running out.

There's a reason, I presume, why T1E has lasted for ten years and still sees regular use. Not to mention, if it's the most restrictive system and I still kill -everyone- using it, god knows how easy it would be for me to ruin people when I wasn't restricting myself by using it.

[Divinity]

My only concern in any of this, is how Myron's character had an 'advantage'. The damage dealt was only more so because of shoddy rule placement. Following the logic present when I took damage from your attack, you too would have been forced to take more damage from my railgun. This is all incredibly subjective at the end of the day. I say a draw be settled and we continue this in another match at a later date with proper rules, judges, and what have you if you're still feeling froggy. This is my final word in the topic. Whatever Rilla decides I'm cool with.

[Dazsos]

I'd keep this up with my comical grin, but you don't respect me anymore, do you, Melon? See, I respect everyone I debate with, even divas such as yourself and Divinity. You have to respect your opponents, or you'll underestimate them, you'll never see from their point of view, and you'll be too ignorant and self absorbed in the idea of promoting your opinions. I've played my role of equal respect from the get go, so if you want none, that's fine, it actually just means I'll begin to ignore everything you have to say. You've defended someone who was just as insulting towards me as I was towards them, as if they did nothing to merit even-handedness. I don't see you as a neutral member of this debate, perhaps it'd be best to leave now, before a possible loss of an argument hurts your feelings.

It's entirely up to us if we want specific rules, or don't want specific rules. Even then, there are unspoken rules every role-player must use and adhere to, and if you break them, you're out... they don't have to be stated beforehand, and they are proof that there is always a means of ruling and judging a fight. No autohitting. No godmodding. There are even less mechanically specific ones, such as the requirement of some kind of sense & logic. If it makes no sense, no logic, and otherwise based on the fundamental laws of physics and the skill-sets given in a character's sheet, if it's impossible, that's where the lines are marked. You're asking us to state rules from the perspective of someone whipped by T1EA, it's easy for you to point in a direction and say "that's my god, he may not be perfect, but I'll do whatever it says." If people don't know or don't want to play by T1EA, they default to the smart man's alternative, which is basic common sense and the badasseryness of motherfucking science. It isn't mandatory for us to say "Hey yeah, let's uh... have gravity on in this fight." Before beginning. Even magic can be forced to adhere to science, as long as it's well explained, and if it breaks physics, it better say how. The whole process of accepting each other's profiles is practically setting up of the rules, "this is what your character can and cannot do." It's so simple.

I have no doubt that I'll only egg you on more, Melon, and I really don't care. In the end, like you say, it's up to Rilla, right? So don't mind if I do just confirm this with him, regardless of your repetitive stake in this argument. I already can assume the next 5 posts you'll make will tell the same boring story. Even your insults are repetitive, they don't even tickle me at this point. (Queue Melon's next attempt to tickle me with an insult.)

So, @Rilla. Divinity did quit, and stated that he wouldn't be making a comeback, this fight is over. Though he mentioned working on a post where Corban forfeits or flees, I doubt he'll want to continue writing, and I wouldn't hold it to him. We're not exactly the best of friends right now. How would we go about judging at this point? Will you or Innue decide the victor based on how the fight progressed so far? Or is it an automatic win due to forfeiture?

EDIT: Oh, well there's @Divinity. I guess you didn't see that whole spectacle where I was finding ways to have Myron's abilities work in T1EA? I've been willing to continue this battle, so I figured forfeiture would be your loss, regardless of advantages or standpoints.

'Proper judges,' now you're insulting a judge we both agreed upon, and Rilla always has the right to judge any fight, so there's always proper judges. I'm the one you have beef with, not the judges, nor the default ruleset of common sense, I'm the one spitting all over T1EA.

[MelonHead]

I didn't respect you as a person, mainly because I didn't even know you but particularly since your little spat with Tasuke years back where you did exactly this, but I respected your achievement defeating Lyzan and assumed you must have at least -some- idea what you were doing.

What I realise now, with more experience in debate, is that the fallacies you fill your arguments with really just speak for themselves. So no Dazsos, I have no intention of 'tickling you' with any more insults, I think your words speak for themselves, and I suspect anyone who does look through this thread can come to their own conclusions. I wring my hands of it.

[Innue]

I'm not sure how you would get a more proper judge. I'm one of the three that is listed officially on the Ranking Headquarters.

And Rilla has strongly reinforced my thoughts (some of which were stated) in that it is up to you guys to agree to the set of specific rules you want. Some do not want, or need, a strict set of rules to complete a ranked match and really only need a judge to make determinations based on their sensibilities. Some also may not want to apply T1EA, as it may not work with the system they are using (AKA my fight with Tuuj that used a psuedo-formal system that is technique embedded).

Abandoning or forfeiture of a fight has historically given victory to the one who did not do that providing that there was actual combat that had taken place. In this instance, I would state that it has.

Here are your options:
- Agree upon a set of rules for enforcement and continue the fight with them
- Continue the fight with the understanding that any issue arising will be my judgment and it may not be strict T1EA
- Agree to a tie and both walk away
- Someone forfeits and grants the other a victory

[Divinity]

@Dazsos Again with the strawmen. I have never insulted the judge. I said 'proper', as in decided from the start alongside a set of rules. None of this has been proper since the beginning.

@Innue
-I tried this, you see where it got us.
-I would take this option if I actually knew what reasoning, system, or structure was going into it, provided i fin them fair. What are the laws governing preps?
-I've offered this option as well. Dazsos' pride will not allow him to call it a draw, since he is so certain he could defeat me.
-This is probably the only option available that allows things to end at least somewhat amicably. I personally don't care for Dazsos, or this fight enough to continue against my better judgment. The win is his if he wants it.

[Innue]

Actually, it has been proper. We don't have a mandated structure on here. You opted to not clarify where you two stood on certain principles prior to it beginning (this isn't uncommon). This is still on you two for turning it into this mess.

What you tried doesn't matter. What you decide is what does.

My reasoning would be that yes, potentially multiple spells (up to a capacity dependent on the complexity of the spells being used at the time) could be charged at once, however, there is a maximum amount of energy that can be transferred to them each turn. So charging only one spell benefits you in boosting its strength greater than preparing one spell. So, while either of you could actually prepare multiple spells, you are hedging your bets vs actually fully boosting the strength of a spell. You'd assume both characters, unless otherwise stated, have similar energy outputs per turn.

[LeeRoy]

Oh gosh, an argument that I missed out on!?

Boo.

[Divinity]

This all sounds good on paper until it is applied to the reality of the situation that to make multi-prepping a rule this late in the game would without a doubt put my character at a distinct disadvantage, which both I and Melon expounded upon earlier.

Again, if that is the rule this would be operating under, then I'll gladly suffer a forfeit loss.

[Innue]

You are entirely capable of doing the same thing as him.

It is your choice whether or not to continue. I've already outlined the options.

[Divinity]

Telling me that I can do something does not make that something fair if the opponent has already been doing that something. I'll repeat it again, that I and Melon expounded on exactly why even if Corban could multiprep, he'd still be at a distinct disadvantage currently.

But regardless, my decision remains what it is. Forfeiture.

[Dazsos]

In response to the options.

1st - My opinions about T1EA have degraded over this debate; If we continue, I'd rather not play by the strict version of those rules. Using them adds additional limits to Myron's spellpower and spellcast times, which I've already given variables. If Corban is really built around T1EA, that's not my issue, we can work on certain buffs for him to break these limitations? If giving you some extra oomph lets me forget about Eden Era, I'm all for it.

2nd - I trust Innue; even if we find his judgment a bit off, we can always call in the opinions of the other two judges, and have them all spar for our amusement.

3rd - Actually I've considered a draw before, but I mean... you've called me stupid so many times, you've made me feel as if we really are enemies, destined to see this rivalry through till the end. I'm quite prone to vengeance, you see, and I've got nothing to lose from this that I haven't already.

4th - I mean if you just offer me a win if I 'want it,' I'd totally take it, dude. Don't expect me to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Divinity]

1. Didn't we already do something like this with Myron? Scaling, I think, isn't the answer. Unless you're talking mechanical changes to the rules that would give Corban workarounds, in which case I am more than willing to strike a compromise.

2. I'm actually not familiar with the other two judges. I'd imagine they are Rilla and Skallagrim, both of whom are rarely around if I've read correctly.

3. We have both been nothing but aggressive and immature with one another since shortly after this kicked off. I'm still willing to end in a draw. As unsatisfied as I am with this, I don't really have any I'll will toward you as a person. Just an rp'er. But I'm sure we're well beyond just sweeping it under the rug and calling it a day, which is also fine.

4. The thing is, I offered it because I don't care if you take it or leave it. If you want to work something out that we've discussed earlier in the list then that's fine. But if not, then it's all good, too. No skin off my nose.

[Rilla]

I am rarely around. Mostly because of work and a kid and Melon's refusal to FB message me. Hahah