@Asta I'm sorry I can only see your race as cruel no matter how I look at them, despite your examples not one of those species (that aren't maddened) would kill and eat their own young, entire prides would starve and have and they still didn't eat their young. Tigers are incredibly maternal creatures and would and have died so that things don't eat their young. Humans are just a fucking mess so I'll give you that. Nomadic and tribal peoples in this or any other world know how to treat their land so they can always get enough sustenance to survive, even desert dwellers know how to tap a cactus or catch a lizard and I think you'll find only cannibals (which is a very small population when looked at globally) would ever consider eating people meat and children's flesh is still taboo to them (from what I've learned). Your characters therefore aren't like humans tigers or lions but more like viruses or perhaps maggots. They sound as if they can't self sustain and when out of what they perceive to be options will turn on themselves/others. Life can be sustained anywhere if a person only looks but to not look or to decide that what the earth has given you isn't enough and so consume children/flesh instead that is cruel...or lazy. At least in my opinion.

I don't know if that makes any sense, still a bit out of it on painkillers but since we're going to be roleplaying together I thought I'd put my two cents in.

Edit: Of course it might be my subconscious perspective kicking in, I AM a mother you see and only reluctantly eat meat and even then I feel guilty for every single bite and feel vilely ill after each meat based meal (again though I was a vegetarian for a long time so that might contribute). Unless your race sees itself separate from other races and thus your lion/tiger things more apt, their the predator and other bi-pedal creatures the prey? I dunno but I am trying to get it.

Edit2: I can get that they don't see themselves as cruel by the by, I just can't see how any other races in this setting and a majority of spirits/deities will not view the actions of eating people meat as cruel, not evil, just cruel.

I didn't say (or didn't mean to say, at least) that the culture of your del-korm was anything less than credible, I only meant to say that the culture itself not necessarily made them incompatible with the Prophecy afterlife. As I also explained they, due to their culture, would not harness as much... let's call it "bad karma" for doing the things their culture permits as others would, and it would be much easier for them to counteract this with deeds that earned them "good karma"; it would still be a bit of an uphill struggle for them to be prominently good and earn access to the Upper Plane, but this would only support the need for them to do as much during their lives as they could, basically to gain enough reverence from themselves and their own kind to balance out the innate revilement of the other civilizations.
Not that any of this matters if you're determined for them not to have an afterlife, I was just trying to bring the point across that it was possible to work out a compromise on their side rather than ditching the concept of eternal souls.

What creatures do not have afterlives... Well, one of two criteria has to be met for a being not to have an afterlife. The first is the most easily achievable one and was included in the very first question I asked when I learned that the del-korm would not have afterlives: faith. If a mortal firmly believes that they will not have an afterlife but has an idea of what will happen with them instead, then their own conviction will cancel the Wanderer's duty to bring them to the traditional afterlife and instead enforce the fate they believe they will meet. In other words, if the del-korm take this route they not only need to have no doubts that they will not have afterlives (they need to know it), they also need to be confident in what will happen to them instead.
The other criteria is simple and is the most common reason to beings not being entitled to an afterlife in the first place: they are not mortal. Only mortals have afterlives. Now, "mortal" in the Prophecy refers to beings that meet their own set of particular criteria, and failure to meet even one of these will land them in a different category of existence. One: they have both of the Seeds of Good and Evil; lacking either will drastically affect their psychological composition and leave them with an innate desire to satisfy the Seed they have, or no desire to do anything at all if they have neither. Two: they have independent souls composed of mortal energy, drawn from other mortals, ambient energy in Reniam and/or from the Spirit Realm during their sleep. Three: they must be bound to a living physical body, which excludes beings like ghosts and true undead (vampires, contrary to popular belief, are not counted as undead in the Prophecy, but are considered mortal)... and I think that's about it. Straying from any of those three criteria will make a being unfit for an afterlife and will render it a different existence altogether.

In regards to nature, mothers eating their own young is extremely common... Evolutionarily, a fertile grown female is often far more valuable. The offspring most likely won't survive on their own, but the female can always have a new litter next month or year if she survives. Even with most social animals, the survival of fertile adults is usually heavily favored, since it is more beneficial to the species and community as a whole.

(Lions for one *very* often eat their young. If the pride gains a new head, eating all the young cubs is nearly the first thing he will do... Almost all rodents will eat their young when they become excessively threatened... Chimpanzees, which are normally herbivores, sometimes attack other chimpanzee groupings, and when they kill someone then, they will make an exception to their diet and cannibalize. With many species of fish, the young of the same species is a very significant portion of the diet. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... Nature *is* cruel. Cannibalism and ritualistic murder were very common amongst some nature-peoples, too.)

And yeah, I don't see del-korm more evil than, say, cats or hamsters...

(Also, plants feel pain and communicate to one another, too... The chemical consistency of the other end of your law changes almost as soon as you start your lawn mower, and you won't even be anywhere near said plants yet. The "smell of freshly cut grass" is the smell of chemicals only emitted by grass plants in response to extreme stress; normally they smell different.)

Dark Jack said That aside, I'm sorry but I really need more, namely an explanation as to why they don't have afterlives.

From what you have said before, I gathered it is not impossible? And even before that, you have in several places, stated that souls do evolve over generations, too, not just physical forms? I would say it could be a "racial defect", a mutation that occurred once long ago that makes their souls fall apart after death rather than stay in a condition that would permit passing on or becoming a ghost? As in, their souls actually need bodies to stay together?
(I would, in general, suggest that everything that isn't impossible should be allowed for RP purposes, lest the process of integrating new ideas becomes grueling and starts killing motivation and hampering creativity. Didn't you yourself once say that your novels are yours only, but the RP here is the collaborative creation of us all?)

Dark Jack said For them to have anything akin to an ability to consume their opponents' voices to increase their own power, it would probably need to be explained as draining magical energy from them.

Yes, they are intended use the magical energy of those they defeat/kill... The only real question is how exactly the process of acquiring said magical energy goes.

Dark Jack said It seems like del-korm would have no moral compass with the way they work, meaning that their pursuit of "carving one's legacy into the fabric of time" could just as easily (or more easily, even) be accomplished by acts of cruelty as it could by acts of glory.

I think this is what the "reputation as currency" and related aspects are there for. Horrific acts cause hatred, and if you are hated so much, you will most likely be just killed off quite quickly.

Dark Jack said It's not something that is constantly relevant, no (in fact I did decide that the Seeds do not affect a being's personality unless one or both of them are missing, but are indeed solely a mechanic for determining afterlife and, in some cases, manifesting an aura of one alignment or the other in beings who exhibit exceptional growth of one of them), but they are there.

This is essentially what I meant with "not paying not much mind to it" when writing characters. As long as my character is alive, is not a demonspawn, and doesn't somehow get either seed (or both) removed they do not affect what my character does? Was a bit bad wording here.

What does somewhat ... puzzle me, though, is the fact that several of the gods, who are supposed to only have a seed of good each (the renegade demon lord, Rilon, excluded) are either morally questionable (Deliph) or considerably more evil than good (Frenis). [With my personal set of morals taken as a basis, granted, but the basics should overlap with quite a lot.] Greed and selfishness are quite universally considered "evil" traits. Granted, there are many evil and/or questionable gods in various mythologies, but in those gods are (as a rule) not supposed to be thoroughly benevolent...

Oh, and a point Legion did bring up: does the deity you believe in any way influence your afterlife in the canon? Assume you don't become demon/angel. (I assume most devils will just want more demon minions, though.) Do the deities have sort of regions for their specific followers that they designed (and which said followers are free to migrate out of), for instance?

Shienvien said From what you have said before, I gathered it is not impossible? And even before that, you have in several places, stated that souls do evolve over generations, too, not just physical forms? I would say it could be a "racial defect", a mutation that occurred once long ago that makes their souls fall apart after death rather than stay in a condition that would permit passing on or becoming a ghost? As in, their souls actually need bodies to stay together?

Dark Jack said That aside, I'm sorry but I really need more, namely an explanation as to why they don't have afterlives.

No, it is not impossible, and yes, souls do evolve to some degree. What I want is an explanation, as I said, which "their souls at some point developed a defect that cause them to disintegrate if they aren't bound to a body" certainly is. This would be an acceptable basis for the trait to exist. I didn't say that I would not permit them not to have an afterlife (in fact I came up with reasons that this could be and told you about them to help coming up with a justification), I simply offered an alternative that could be used or not however ASTA preferred it. This explanation, while acceptable, was not among the reasons I myself gave, that is correct... but I can't be expected to think of everything myself, can I? As you mentioned yourself and is contained in the next quote just below here, we all work together on this RP, so you need to help explain new things like this in relation to established lore. I can't do it by myself.

Shienvien said (I would, in general, suggest that everything that isn't impossible should be allowed for RP purposes, lest the process of integrating new ideas becomes grueling and starts killing motivation and hampering creativity. Didn't you yourself once say that your novels are yours only, but the RP here is the collaborative creation of us all?)

I usually allow about anything that isn't impossible and have just about done that in the past, so I don't see why you would doubt me now. That actually hurt a bit, especially coming from you, Shien... is it really too much to ask for the reason as to why a thing is to the point of seeming to discourage the implementation of non-impossible things? Eh... I... no... nevermind. I shouldn't read too much into this... but even read in a neutral tone, that one still hurts.

Shienvien said Yes, they are intended use the magical energy of those they defeat/kill... The only real question is how exactly the process of acquiring said magical energy goes.

Generally speaking magical energy can only be manipulated, and thus also drained, through magic (which is a wide term in this case, basically referring to the control of energy with one's mind). Both the Xuhrl-njok and Gerald do it by touching their victim and pulling energy from it and into themselves by extending the flow of their own souls into the other's, and I honestly think that is the most feasible way to do it. I could start inventing devices that would allow extraction and transference of magical energy (much like the Chaos Engine) but that hardly seems like it would fit the del-korm at all... So if it is not an option to have them do it that way, I will need your suggestions once more.

Shienvien said What does somewhat ... puzzle me, though, is the fact that several of the gods, who are supposed to only have a seed of good each (the renegade demon lord, Rilon, excluded) are either morally questionable (Deliph) or considerably more evil than good (Frenis). Greed and selfishness are quite universally considered "evil" traits. Granted, there are many evil and/or questionable gods in various mythologies, but in those gods are (as a rule) not supposed to be thoroughly benevolent...

I think I mentioned this once before, but being innately good or evil only make them predisposed towards that alignment; it doesn't prevent them from committing acts of the opposite alignment or having a personality that fits the other more than their own. All of the gods (excluding Rilon) have an innate desire to do good, but they also have different perceptions of what "good" and "evil" is (please, oh please remember the importance of perception in this universe). Frenis may seem more evil than good to most, but that doesn't mean that he himself doesn't view his actions as benevolent. Not saying that it's morally sound on a larger scale, just that even deities (and immortals in general) may not have views that conform with the general tendency of the rest of the Planes.

Shienvien said Oh, and a point Legion did bring up: does the deity you believe in any way influence your afterlife in the canon? Assume you don't become demon/angel. (I assume most devils will just want more demon minions, though.) Do the deities have sort of regions for their specific followers that they designed (and which said followers are free to migrate out of), for instance?

Not really, no; where you geographically appear in your earned afterlife is determined partly of your geographical location in Reniam (locations in the four main Planes are somewhat loosely related) and partly by the location of any beings one once knew that may be present in the Plane you appear in, as one's soul will instinctively shy away from or be drawn towards these beings (appearing in their actual presence is rare, though, unless someone you want to see happens to be very close to the area in the afterlife that matched the place where one died). Migrating from area to area is freely permitted and easily accomplished in the Upper Plane, whereas the Lower Plane... well, freedom isn't really a concern there. Dead spirits there are hunted down no matter where they are, though, so I guess they are as free to migrate as they are to stay.
There are no domains bound to the gods in the Upper Plane, and followers of demon lords aren't going to appear in their lord's territory as a matter of course.

@Dark Jack, Shien, and ASTA:

So if the key way we see mortal beings absorbing magical energy be through a magical process, and we see that Del-korm already have rather strange soul make-up (if in fact ASTA accepts that tidbit as reasonable and well fitted for the race) then would it be too far of a stretch to say that the process that allows them to increase the power of their Echoing(magic) by way of absorbing the voice(magic) of another be something that can be attributed to a soul evolution/mutation?

If that's possible/reasonable then why not have it that, for whatever reason, Del-korm have been absorbing the magical energy of their foes for long enough that it has become more or less an inherent, and somewhat automatic, trait for them. Perhaps the trait is triggered by specific circumstances so that they can't just do it willy-nilly, but are instead required to meet those guidelines so that they can increase the power of their voice(magic/souls) via the aforementioned method. Would that be too far fetched?

Idk, I just thought I'd supply my idea since it came up while I was reading over this conversation, which as always has been quite interesting ^_^:

Well I'm bowing out of this one, its suddenly got very...chaotic I suppose is the word for it, and I'm not very capable of dealing with it right now. I briefly thought about arguing my point and the fact that I do in fact know something but ultimately I find discussing anything OOC is a pointless endeavor which is why I rarely post in the OOC anymore. I understand arguments are a part of the creative process, I also understand that the way someone has written something may not necessarily have the same meaning as the person who then reads it but I just can't deal with this right now. Sorry guys.

@Cthulu

1) Tribal societies, despite widespread misconception, are not societies that live in harmony with nature. They just use significantly less resources than developed cities and nations because they don’t have access to iPods, iPads and smart phones, and other nonsensical devices that are not required for survival. They also number far fewer than many human groups, and therefore use less resources as a result. Of course they’re going to ‘know how much to use’, which is false considering these people probably don’t even know what the definition of an ecosystem or an environment even is.

2) As Shien has pointed out, nature is not a tranquil place filled with butterflies and pixies, and where humanity is the only species on the globe that is capable of great ‘evil’ deeds. Contrary to popular belief, lions are not noble creatures that should be admired only for their strength, valor or purity; these attributes are nothing more than the idolizations of various human cultures that held great ignorance regarding how lions really conduct themselves in the wild. The animals we share our world with do not subscribe to our definition of morality, because it is simply not applicable to their mental processes, their lifestyles or their intrinsic quest to survive. The larger outside world cares little for concepts of right and wrong. Malkor-Kurz, having been written as a realistic landscape with relevant hardships (and a place that is largely devoid of human influence), is no exception to this rule.

3) Del-korm can sustain themselves, but they are competing with other predators for food—including one another. Resources are limited and time is finite. This is no different than when humans compete with one another for a single open job position at a newly-opened firm. One person will get this job, while the others will be forced to look elsewhere for work. The job hunt at large can become absolutely menacing and bloodthirsty when positions (food) in a city or town (forest, plains or mountains) are limited due to a stagnant economy (a set amount of prey creatures present in a given radius).

4) Ritualistic cannibalism is taboo in many human societies, but not all. Are these people evil for practicing their religious beliefs? Are the ancient Inca and Aztec civilizations worthy of damnation because they practiced human sacrifice to pay homage to their deities? What about people in Asia who consume dogs? Are they evil for eating a creature that Americans consider “Man’s Best Friend”?

5) In regards to the maggot/virus statement—that can very easily be used to describe deer, grey wolves or humans. Other ‘pest’ creatures, like rats or mice or even cockroaches, come to mind. Any animal that has reproductive capability can become a destructive burden on the surrounding land that it occupies if given the chance. Like I’ve said, the Earth is huge and has a lot of food, water and raw materials to sustain the human species for a [set] around of time, but even presently, there isn’t enough of everything to go around for everyone without extremely adverse environmental or economical consequences occurring. I mean, could you imagine if all seven billion of us had access to an automobile?

6) No, del-korm are not one-hundred percent loyal to one another. Humans aren’t either. The only time this changes is when Malkor-Kurz (or the del-korm race as a whole) faces invasion or extermination from an external (or internal) threat, because now it’s a battle between literal species, not like-minded peoples of vaguely-similar societies that share similar physical appearances.

@Yosuha

Perhaps. That depends on what Dark says, though I should maybe note that the only two del-korm in existence that can use magic are Aeon and Claw. If such an ability did come to pass, it would only be in possession of Claw and his mother.

@Dark

Well, in that case, I guess they could simply believe that an afterlife doesn't exist. It would add more depth and content to some of their philosophical, religious and ideological beliefs anyway.

Also Cthulu, no one's arguing, and the discussion isn't chaotic. I'm actually enjoying this talk, because it's introducing me to different viewpoints. These are the kind of things I want to see happen in the IC thread too.

It's healthy is what I'm saying, if that makes sense.

@ASTA:

Dark Jack said "Their souls at some point developed a defect that cause them to disintegrate if they aren't bound to a body" certainly is [an explanation]]. This would be an acceptable basis for the trait to exist.

Citing it in case you missed it. Basically, both faith-related reasons (which would be somewhat unreliable) and their souls being different (which would more or less ensure none of them would ever have an afterlife) would work.

Dark Jack said Generally speaking magical energy can only be manipulated, and thus also drained, through magic (which is a wide term in this case, basically referring to the control of energy with one's mind). Both the Xuhrl-njok and Gerald do it by touching their victim and pulling energy from it and into themselves by extending the flow of their own souls into the other's, and I honestly think that is the most feasible way to do it.

yoshua171 said So if the key way we see mortal beings absorbing magical energy be through a magical process, and we see that Del-korm already have rather strange soul make-up [...] then would it be too far of a stretch to say that the process that allows them to increase the power of their Echoing(magic) by way of absorbing the voice(magic) of another be something that can be attributed to a soul evolution/mutation?

Seeing how his mother and him share the trait, making it another mutation could work, perhaps (as far as I am aware). ASTA considered it interesting, from what I know.

Dark Jack said All of the gods (excluding Rilon) have an innate desire to do good, but they also have different perceptions of what "good" and "evil" is. Frenis may seem more evil than good to most, but that doesn't mean that he himself doesn't view his actions as benevolent.

How is the drive to do good orientated? Solely according to the specific individual's understanding of good and evil? (With deities getting a pass from the usual consequences of being judged by others, since their alignment is predetermined ... meaning that they can have rather twisted perception of good and evil with little repercussions aside of the disdain of fellow deities.)
- I recall you described Rilon as not understanding good (?), and being unable to act good no matter what he wanted (though it could be just the drive to do evil overpowering his conscious thinking).

(Random: what creatures do get an afterlife? Do all at least somewhat intelligent animals get one? (Animals who are intelligent enough to like or dislike certain individuals, for example?) What about plants (or, at least, poor Anaxim)?)

And I see about the deities not affecting their followers' location more specifically, and there being no division to regions present. I take that canonically, what specific deity you believe in has little effect on what your afterlife would be like?

Shienvien said Seeing how his mother and him share the trait, making it another mutation could work, perhaps (as far as I am aware). ASTA considered it interesting, from what I know.

It could perhaps be feasible to say that whatever condition causes the souls of the del-korm to disintegrate upon becoming disconnected from their body would also allow them to cause partial (since if they went around and consumed the entire souls of beings, I sincerely doubt they would be left alone for long) disintegration of others' souls and be capable of assimilating them into themselves. If that is the route taken, all that would really be left would be to determine how - and when - this ability is used in practice.

Shienvien said How is the drive to do good orientated? Solely according to the specific individual's understanding of good and evil? (With deities getting a pass from the usual consequences of being judged by others, since their alignment is predetermined ... meaning that they can have rather twisted perception of good and evil with little repercussions aside of the disdain of fellow deities.)

A being driven to do good or evil are driven to do so based on their own perception of what those things imply, yes. A god or angel can easily be perceived as evil by others, and as a matter of fact a demon can actually also be considered good. To say that there are no repurcssions from being judged by others' view on what good and evil are would be inaccurate, though... they do not possess the Seed opposite to their own alignment, which means that this cannot store the "karmic energy" generated by their actions... but this "energy" (in lack of a better term) is still generated. I'll refer to a phenomenon mentioned a long time ago called the Flood Effect, and leave it at that.

Shienvien said - I recall you described Rilon as not understanding good (?), and being unable to act good no matter what he wanted (though it could be just the drive to do evil overpowering his conscious thinking).

Beings innately bound to one alignment and excluded from the other are incapable of comprehending the very concept of their opposite, and are generally confused by arguments based on things like that. Granted, what the opposite of their alignment entails is still determined by their personality so the good that Rilon can't understand might not be the same as a demon can't understand. Eh, it's pretty circumstancial, really, but a pure-aligned being will always try to explain others' actions based on its own moral perception, and it will be confused and potentially enraged by actions that it cannot fit into its own school of thinking (which is also why demons and gods and angels almost inevitably fight one another whenever they meet). They are incapable also incapable of acting according to their opposite morality because they have no idea how to do it, and because their instincts will usually guide them in the opposite direction.

Shienvien said (Random: what creatures do get an afterlife? Do all at least somewhat intelligent animals get one? (Animals who are intelligent enough to like or dislike certain individuals, for example?) What about plants (or, at least, poor Anaxim)?)

Any being that meet the criteria for being classified as "mortal" - which includes just about every animal and monster in Reniam, not just the civilized species - is sorted into the two afterlives unless they are convinced that there is a different fate in wait for them. Plants - even Anaxim, regrettably - do not qualify as mortals and are not granted afterlives; their energy, memories and self simply disperses upon death to be recycled and reused by other plants, or by greedy liches or Xuhrl-njok that happen to be nearby... the two latter of which will erase their memories and selves upon consumption, whereas the former will allow them to continue existing as part of themselves.

Shienvien said And I see about the deities not affecting their followers' location more specifically, and there being no division to regions present. I take that canonically, what specific deity you believe in has little effect on what your afterlife would be like?

Normally it won't no... well, not in a big way, at least. Someone who was a Favored One to a god during their life might be greeted by an angel in service to that god upon arriving there, and someone who reached the rank of either high priest or knight-paladin could even be lucky enough to be welcomed by the god itself, but beyond that it is the choice of the dead themselves how much they want to hinge their afterlives on their past religion. In the Lower Plane people who worshipped a demon lord will usually be tracked down much faster than others by the lord's demon minions and be... enthusiastically encouraged to become demon minions to that same lord themselves. And again, someone who was a high priest or knight-paladin to a demon lord might be greeted by the lord itself, for it to personally extend the offer to become a demon and join its legions. Small things, really.

Man, time flies. I do some things here and there, procrastinate others, and before I knew it, weeks went by. What I'm trying to say is, I've been both somewhat preoccupied, but also honestly neglecting the RP these last uh, roughly a week or two? And I don't think that that's really okay on my part, but it is what it is. I guess having to wait a week or two for a post from me is almost nothing extraordinary anymore at this point, but here's to hoping I can turn that around one of these days; I really do take too much time on average. That said, I'll get my post up real soon, aiming for tomorrow, possibly early morning.

Edit: Guess it was evening.

I'm still writing Claw's sheet. Real-life and other obligations (as well as other RPs) are getting in the way, however.

Hrm... I think I am still a bit confused over what makes demons tendenced to generally (though not always) obtain mindset that might fit the general perception of evil, and gods one that might fit the general perception of good. Their instincts, which you referred to? Something about how the seeds were made by the respective spirits? If their drive makes them more likely to do things of a specific kind, then the drive probably has some kind of preset?

Do mortals get their seeds of the opposite alignment expunged when they get turned into demons or angels?

Why do plants not qualify as mortals? I recall their souls are typically more placid, and that in this world a plant-soul can reach over multiple individual plants (though wouldn't it make them one person, rather than not mortal? what about colonial animals, especially the lesser ones?). Real-life plants typically communicate chemically (and while some of them work together, even across species, they more commonly try to kill one another off). The changes of a plant's chemical composition can also be insanely fast.

@Nessa: Your turn in the collab?

Shienvien said Hrm... I think I am still a bit confused over what makes demons tendenced to generally (though not always) obtain mindset that might fit the general perception of evil, and gods one that might fit the general perception of good. Their instincts, which you referred to? Something about how the seeds were made by the respective spirits? If their drive makes them more likely to do things of a specific kind, then the drive probably has some kind of preset?

Ah, there's actually something like a story to why that is on top of an explanation. If you recall the ancient history of the Planes and how the immortals first came to be, it all started with the Grand Master of Evil, the first immortal and demon lord, a being that was not created by the Spirits and the ideal that laid the foundation for the creation of the other (original) demon lords. When Ismyel decided to try to replicate the Grand Master she forged completely new Seeds of Evil to richly infuse with her essence until she forced the occurrence of powerful immortal life; these demons were created entirely by Ismyel's design and shared her view on what evil was, and thus there was not much variation among them in terms of personality. This is why most of the demon lords seem archetypically evil rather than evil per an individual definition of the term, although some of the lords that came later on, such as Valderoth and Kreshtaat, and the eternal exception of the Grand Master all go by their own unique perception.
After Ismyel had created the demon lords and discarded them as being less than equal to the Grand Master, however, these demon lords went about to increase their own numbers, and they did so by hunting down mortals and ripping the Seeds of Good from their hearts, only to then infuse them with demonic energy; this was all before the afterlives had been introduced, and thus it could be done. The result of this was not more demon lords, though (clearly one demon lord cannot form another), but the first lesser and greater demons. To counter the demon lords the Spirit of Good then went and collected a number of the discarded Seeds of Good ripped from the mortals-turned-demons and infused these with its essence until they became the original gods, which then went out to turn the remaining torn-out Seeds into angels. See, while the original demon lords were created entirely by Ismyel's will, all gods that ever existed were always made from fragments of existing beings, which is why there is much greater difference between their perceptions of the alignments than with the original demon lords as they inherited parts of the being their fragments came from.
Is there a common preset between these? With some of them; the original demon lords shared the preset that was Ismyel's perception of evil, but beyond that they all inherited their perception from their origins. Under greater scrutiny you would probably have a hard time finding a god that adhered completely to the general consensus on what is "good", and it would be equally challenging to find a demon lord not among the originals - or even among those - that suited the popular opinion of what was evil perfectly, either. If any such preset exists, it would be in the form that Spirit-born deities also inherit part of the Spirit who made them, but as soon as they have components to them that did not come directly from the Spirits of Union they immediately deviate from that preset.

Shienvien said Do mortals get their seeds of the opposite alignment expunged when they get turned into demons or angels?

In a sense they do, although the process is not as simple as the deity facilitating the transformation just erasing the unwanted Seed. The Seeds of Good and Evil cannot just be destroyed by any normal means, you see, and even if a Seed was removed from the being it belonged in, it would continue to exist on its own in some manner or form (they can degenerate over time if left on their own like that, though, but that's another story). Rather than removing one Seed from dead spirits desiring to ascend to immortality, it is more a matter of their Seeds being fused together into one, which, as is so often the case, the two opposites cancelling each other out upon fusion and annihilating each other to an equal degree. The Seed that has been grown more is always the one to survive this fusion, since by the time it has completely cancelled out its counterpart it will still have some unfused growth left, though typically far less than it had before the fusion. The energy released due to the annihilation of the Seeds is part of what feeds the increased power of an immortal compared to a dead spirit or mortal, though this energy can only be contained in an amount proportional to the uncancelled growth of the newly ascended immortal's remaining Seed, meaning that the more good/evil they were before ascending, the more power they will be able to harness from the process.
Demons usually leave it at that (which is why their demonic manifestation and power-level is usually a product of how evil they were before ascending), whereas among angels the gods tend to gift them whatever power they lack so that they can manifest in accordance with the most fitting personality-archetype among the angels rather than in accordance with how good they were. There are always exceptions, though... there are demons that were so evil before ascending that they evolve into unique entities rather than manifesting as known types of demons (these are the ones termed "greater demons", which refers to demons of orlgarhi-level power and above), and contrary to what most mortals in Reniam think it is not only demons that are divided into three tiers like that (lesser demon, greater demon and demon lord); angels also have individuals so good that their initial amount of power from the fusion of Seeds is even greater than that of other angels after having been gifted additional power by their god, and these angels are the ones that fill the tier between regular angels and gods; archangels. Eh... but I digress.

Shienvien said Why do plants not qualify as mortals? I recall their souls are typically more placid, and that in this world a plant-soul can reach over multiple individual plants (though wouldn't it make them one person, rather than not mortal? what about colonial animals, especially the lesser ones?). Real-life plants typically communicate chemically (and while some of them work together, even across species, they more commonly try to kill one another off). The changes of a plant's chemical composition can also be insanely fast.

Plants do not qualify as mortals because they fail to meet two of the three criteria that determine what a mortal is. Plants do not have Seeds of Good and Evil, which is also one of the main reasons why they are considered firmly under Gaia's domain as the Spirit of Neutrality; the only kind of alignment they can have manifests when they merge with Living Woods, and even then they do not have Seeds, but only a "memory" of the Seeds of the mortals whose energy facilitated their ascendance. The other failed criteria is that they do not have independent souls, but rather share one big, organically fluctuating soul with other plants in the area. Even though plants do have awareness and are capable of communicating, and when becoming Living Woods can even be considered equal to or greater than typical mortals, they are not mortals. Eh... well, to be fair I suppose they could be considered as adhering to that second criteria by citing that all ambient energy is technically an extension of their soul, but that would mean that the soul of plants is actually the soul of the Plane of Reniam itself rather than just plants, which would be a justifiable way of looking at it, since ambient energy in Reniam always carries some memory of the plants it has been through. It's start to get really philosophical from there, but suffice to say that whatever plants are, especially if they are the soul of Reniam itself, it is not mortal.
As for colonial animals... if they have any kind of awareness and capacity for fundamental thought at all, they qualify as mortal with all the perks that come with it. Generally speaking things like amobea and bacteria and such won't be included in that due to their inability to have independent awareness and are, in this universe, actually counted as part of the same soul-structure as plants rather than being considered mortals.

Changed some things about Iridiel's CS. The cooldown on the Lightning Bolt is about an hour.

Any other questions, feel free to ask! :D

Hey, Jack. Do you want me to replace Salas' s current CS with the one from the old guild?

Hmm... I believe I indeed see about the deities' perception of good and evil, about about the process of becoming an angel of demon. That was a good explanation, for both of those questions.
(I imagine the original - very first - mortals were a bit less diverse in their beliefs than nowadays' mortals, too, due to being formed directly by the spirits according to their respective perceptions? How diverse you imagine Reniam in general to be? You made a couple of fairly strong statements about how the 'civilized races' would perceive something where I would have imagined very mixed opinions at best...)

And yeah ... according to the story of creation (now that I am actually trying to recall it), plants indeed do not have seeds of good and evil, as they were created by Gaia alone. (Horse chestnuts are evil. Not only dominant - as many plants are -, but downright evil. Rather decorative, though... And some other plants are nice and friendly.)
- It feels strange, though, plants sharing a soul, as in real life plants existing in any sort of harmony is an exception, not the rule. Mostly, they try to very decidedly eliminate other plants in their vicinity by launching a deprivation and chemical war on them, though some will try to "flee". (It can be interesting seeing the same plant pop up a handful of inches from where you last saw it each spring...) How can beings which typically spend their entire lives brutally and relentlessly (if somewhat slowly) murdering one another share a soul?

How come that mind control (and to an extent illusion magic?) and making one's body decay, both of which have been described to work with 'regular', non-favored magic, are not barred by the law of magic that states you cannot directly alter living beings? (As mind control should logically drastically alter the ongoing processes in the brain, and decay is the direct breaking down and altering the consistency of the body. Normal decay only happens due to various bacteria and other flesh-eaters - remove all bacteria, and it would simply stay completely fresh indefinitely ... or eventually simply dry up, if it is in a dry enough room. Time won't cut it.) Or is it just a matter of perception?

Re@Legion's character (since you cannot see the Skype conversations, and hence some of the potential questions may already have been answered; Legion correct me if I misunderstood something, as by the time I left yesterday - well, earlier today - I was already quite tired indeed): Iridiel doesn't have any magical abilities besides her favored powers; the Éireannach simply tend to group all people with magical abilities together, no matter whether it is their own magical prowess or something a deity lends them at prayer. She also did not have her current powers at birth, but was rather 'only' marked by the deity at first. (Sulis occasionally marks people who are meant - or destined - to become her more notable favored at birth; I'd imagine it would work quite well, since the surrounding people are wont to take note of it and start facilitating the idea of being chosen by the goddess early on?) It was only after a long time of dedicated prayers (Legion noted that Sulis is quite big on people routinely praying at her every day, even when they don't necessarily use the favored powers) that she gained the favored powers she has now ... which the officials soon picked up upon, and that did not go well as can be seen.
- The ability to call lightning has a 'cooldown' mostly for balance reasons - it is meant to be the occasional strategic weapon to take out some single important figure (that isn't somehow shielded from magic and/or lightning), but not to be called upon many times in a row to potentially singlehandedly take out an army. (Now when I think of it, being indoors or the opponent having allies very close to them would probably make using it too dangerous for her and/or her allies.) As for what the IC explanation for the cooldown would be, I figure Sulis as a deity is quite free to lend her powers as she as she pleases and may simply not allow using the ability all that often? ("...No. You just asked to use that but moments ago. You do not squander my more destructive powers.")
(Also, we will finally have a proper healer again! Aemoten can go back to just stopping the occasional severe bleeding that can't wait long instead of bearing the brunt of mending everyone's injuries at whatever cost they take.)

Hmm... I believe it is Jack in Zerul and Jillian's party, and Nessa again with the collab? Or does Olan or Jaelnec have something to say?
Edit: And now that Jack's posted, it is Merc/Rhae and Ink/Ashgan respectively (and still Nessa with the collab). Also, Aemoten and Gerald (well, mostly Gerald) already concluded the Withering was demonic back at the gazzeral church' ruins? Guess confirmations can't hurt, though.

Floor is yours, Merc. :P

Shienvien said Hmm... I believe it is Jack in Zerul and Jillian's party, and Nessa again with the collab? Or does Olan or Jaelnec have something to say?
Edit: And now that Jack's posted, it is Merc/Rhae and Ink/Ashgan respectively (and still Nessa with the collab). Also, Aemoten and Gerald (well, mostly Gerald) already concluded the Withering was demonic back at the gazzeral church' ruins? Guess confirmations can't hurt, though.

Olan won't want to interrupt what is going on or jostle Thaler, but Jaelnec might very briefly point out that yes, he is indeed okay, so there's nothing major for me to post in the collab about (though I really am wondering whether there is any real purpose to separating the collab from the rest of the RP since the lower post-quality and faster posting we anticipated isn't really showing that much). Gerald did have the thought before, although up until now it has only been a theory that he suspected might have some truth to it, but which now has much more credibility than before.

Shienvien said (I imagine the original - very first - mortals were a bit less diverse in their beliefs than nowadays' mortals, too, due to being formed directly by the spirits according to their respective perceptions? How diverse you imagine Reniam in general to be? You made a couple of fairly strong statements about how the 'civilized races' would perceive something where I would have imagined very mixed opinions at best...)

When I refer to the 'civilized races', I mostly mean the ones immediately relevant to the region the story takes place in; truth be told Reniam is far more diverse than that area gives the impression of. Not only is there also civilizations to the far south, many more to the west and southwest, and even a couple to the east and southeast, but there are also a plethora of more-or-less isolated islands around Kirirak and (thus far unconfirmed but insistently assured by the seafaring Melenians) at least one other continent in the world. Not all peoples are like Rodoria and its surrounding countries... and I can pretty much guarantee that these remote lands also have their own trouble to deal with in their own way, which Rodorians will likely not learn about for centuries.
And the 'very first' mortals... well, yes, they were a lot less diverse than mortals are now, although their nature (and the circumstances under which they were created) caused them to attain diversity extremely fast, relatively speaking.

Shienvien said And yeah ... according to the story of creation (now that I am actually trying to recall it), plants indeed do not have seeds of good and evil, as they were created by Gaia alone. (Horse chestnuts are evil. Not only dominant - as many plants are -, but downright evil. Rather decorative, though... And some other plants are nice and friendly.)
- It feels strange, though, plants sharing a soul, as in real life plants existing in any sort of harmony is an exception, not the rule. Mostly, they try to very decidedly eliminate other plants in their vicinity by launching a deprivation and chemical war on them, though some will try to "flee". (It can be interesting seeing the same plant pop up a handful of inches from where you last saw it each spring...) How can beings which typically spend their entire lives brutally and relentlessly (if somewhat slowly) murdering one another share a soul?

Although Reniam plants share a soul in the sense of the word, it should be stressed that the ambient energy that connects them isn't quite the same as what a soul is for mortals or even immortals. While plants may obtain remnants of memories and feelings from other plants through the flow of magical energy, they won't actually share a consciousness unless one particular plant has grown advanced enough to force its fledging mind on others, in which case we're dealing with a Living Wood, which is a separate matter altogether. Using the word "share" perhaps also paints their relationship with the soul and each other in a misleadingly idyllic light... It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are mutually dependent on it. The ambient magical energy of Reniam is a somewhat continuously renewed yet limited resource that they require in order to live and stay healthy, much like sunlight, water and various types of nourishment from the soil, so rather than uniting them (excepting once again Living Woods and fledging Living Woods) it's really just one more thing for them to compete over.

Shienvien said How come that mind control (and to an extent illusion magic?) and making one's body decay, both of which have been described to work with 'regular', non-favored magic, are not barred by the law of magic that states you cannot directly alter living beings? (As mind control should logically drastically alter the ongoing processes in the brain, and decay is the direct breaking down and altering the consistency of the body. Normal decay only happens due to various bacteria and other flesh-eaters - remove all bacteria, and it would simply stay completely fresh indefinitely ... or eventually simply dry up, if it is in a dry enough room. Time won't cut it.) Or is it just a matter of perception?

I don't remember having described it as being possible to cause a living body to decay through mortal magic (not saying that I haven't, though; my memory is far from perfect), but to the extent that such a thing was possible it would be a matter of using magic to affect the body indirectly, manipulating something external to cause the internal change. As for mind control and manipulation of individual perception (causing beings to hallucinate rather than actually manufacturing sensations), their fuctioning is indeed a matter of perception for most part. Mortals haven't even begun to understand how the brain actually works yet, but they consider the mind something mostly unrelated to the body (they only see the connection between mind and soul) and thus rather than changing processes in the brain, that kind of illusionary magic instead targets the relatively abstract and spiritual concept of the mind. This is also why even people who have no experience or skill in magic whatsoever can theoretically resist that kind of magic through sheer force of will, since it would just be a matter of the brain-mind forcefully exerting dominance over the manipulated soul-mind. Since the reverse can also be true, however, stronger illusions are more difficult to break; whenever the two minds desynchronize, the more confident/stubborn one forces the other to comply with it.
In a hypothetical future Reniam in which an understanding of the brain had been achieved, illusionists would be capable of directly controlling the soul-mind and the brain-mind, though, making them virtually irresistible to anyone not well-versed in magic themselves. But for the moment all they can do is to affect the brain indirectly through the incorporeal mind.

And I guess the bit on Iridiel's Favored power is okay, as is the goddess of Sulis herself. I find the concept of Sulis' Favored Ones adhering to a different ranking-system than is the case with most other deities interesting, but I guess it could actually make sense, particularly if the ones Sulis marks are actually the ones with comparatively greater souls. It's fine by me, I think.

Dark Jack said Though I really am wondering whether there is any real purpose to separating the collab from the rest of the RP since the lower post-quality and faster posting we anticipated isn't really showing that much.

I think there is a purpose in the sense that it helps keep the IC a bit cleaner... As it is, there are only two locations the IC keeps jumping between, whereas the collab-part would add a third one... Whereas once we're in Zerul, it would be back to two groups, rather than three or more.

Dark Jack said It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are mutually dependent on it.

Compete over? (At least this is the term that comes to mind when you mention resources such as light and water.)

- And yes, you have referenced mortal magic causing decay, in the novel at least... Why I brought the topic up is exactly because you cannot do it by an external means. You can break the body indirectly, but even that won't make it decay faster ... would work just as any injury. So unless you introduced some body-unnatural chemical or somehow turned the normally benign bacteria murderous (would once more require nonmortal magic?)... Radiation poisoning might look slightly similar? Wouldn't still find them exactly decayed. Eh...

(There are other things which I'll probably PM later. Now I shall wander off to deal a bit more with bureaucracy. Oeh...)

Yes, compete over was also the term I settled on at the end of that paragraph. It should also be noted that while plants - and beings in general - require magical energy to function in the Prophecy, it is actually an extremely small amount of it that is passively expended, so even though one only has so much magical energy to begin with (as is the case with tarken), one can live for decades without really noticing much of a decrease of energy without ever replenishing it. Plants consume even less energy than most other beings (or maybe it would be more accurate to say that they consume it far more slowly, since certain plants do live long enough to spend an amount of magical energy as large or larger than what is required for such as humans), but each reserve a portion of ambient energy for themselves to constitute an individual soul-structure, even though the energy that makes up that structure is exchanged at a constant rate with its surroundings. An area may feel almost entirely void of ambient energy despite being very lush with vegetation, only for it to seem absolutely brimming with energy after one burned down all the plants (remember how dense the ambient energy was in the Anaxim Forest before its destruction? After being burned, that area would be downright unhealthy to even pass through fleetingly due to the sheer enormity of ambient energy if that energy hadn't naturally started to disperse once the plants that had drawn it there were destroyed).

And the impossibility of causing decay externally is why I expressed myself the way I did ("to the extent that such a thing was possible"), since what can be magically accomplished at the current level of understanding will be at most to replicate or approximate the effect of decay. Not that such a thing would make much sense to begin with, though, since at the current level of understanding people don't realize that decay doesn't happen on its own in the first place and thus they probably wouldn't even try to find alternate ways to reproduce the effect...
I could try to weave some far-fetched explanation, but the fact of the matter is that the novel as it is now is relatively outdated compared to how the lore has evolved, particularly in regards to the Laws of Magic, since at the time I wrote it I had only established the first one. I didn't think there was anything in it that downright violated the laws, but it appears that I was mistaken.