[OOC] The Prophecy

[Shienvien]

Xuhrl-njok do not consume hearts - only the harvesters do. Xuhrl-njok drain at will when touching whatever they want to drain, or with weaker lifeforms and ambient magic, just by being near. (Since there seems to have occurred some confusion.)

[Rhaevnn Xeno]

Dammit. It haaaaad to be the Fixer. (Great way to introduce him though, DJ).

I do, however, have a small question: would Morgan be able sense anything unusually "strong" about the Fixer, mostly in the magic department. Does the Fixer just drip with power or would he be skilled enough to hide such an aura (if he has one so large).

Also, another thought. How far can Sniffer's abilities go? I understand that they can sense magic through things such as auras and whatnot, and that they automatically dampen their own aura, but can they do other things? For example, dampen others' auras, weaken spells, or even prevent spells from being cast in a certain area? (Somewhat like a black hole - all energy gets negated?)

[Dark Jack]

The Fixer isn't a necromancer or has any real practice in hiding the strength of his soul, so he generally doesn't even try... and even if he had tried, a Sniffer would be able to sense it anyways. Their magical sensory powers are unrivalled, after all. That being said, the Fixer will give off an aura that Morgan will probably recognize as being very powerful, but not monstrously so in the sense that it is still within the range one could expect from a mortal, rather than being on immortal-level. He's certainly stronger than even most experienced mages, but not altogether fearsomely so.
How far can a Sniffer's abilities go... eh, see, the thing is that being a Sniffer means to have taken one's control over one's own soul away, removing all conscious and instinctive influence on the flow of one's energy and instead enforcing the rule of the Sniffer tattoos. They can't actually control their abilities (which is why Sniffers get bombarded with readings on everyone around them constantly) or expand beyond what they were initially. They do possess a certain degree of passive absorption of ambient energy similar to liches due to their natural flow being turned inwards, and since energy can't actually leave their souls again their souls grow in strength the longer they remain Sniffers, but they can't actually use that energy for anything. The passive energy absorption is also so slow that its effect on spells cast near it would be quite neglectible, and unless someone was intentionally pouring raw, unmanifested magical energy into the Sniffer they wouldn't be able to harness more than a very small amount of it. Sorry, but Sniffers don't work that way; their abilities are almost exclusively sensory.

[Shienvien]

Sniffers sensed other things but the strength of others' souls, though? From their magical alignments, control of self, to emotional states?
(Random: I was assumed Gerald was so surprised at not sensing Immanuel after he had been turned because he was not a sniffer, and could be sensed before? Or are necromancers (or can they be) skilled enough to pick out sniffers regardless of them being sniffers? I recall Gerald could pick up that Aemoten's rather calm demeanor and actual state did not match up, for instance.)

(Did you miss ASTA's post on the last page, or are you simply thinking over it? I can never tell, hence me reiterating things when you post but make no comment about them.)

[Dark Jack]

Sniffers can sense other properties about a soul than its strength, yes... eh, so beyond being able to sense the Fixer's state of mind (which he has been doing until now as well) he'd also be able to sense that he is not a necromancer, and that his natural elemental affinity is with air. And the fact that Immanuel was not a Sniffer was part of why Gerald was so surprised when he could not sense him, indeed, although there is more to it than that; while even necromancers aren't able to get any kind of accurate readings on Sniffers - as in, they are unable to tell just about anything at all about a Sniffer just by sensing them, not even where they are - they are just barely able to pick up the presence of Sniffers... that is, they are able to tell that a Sniffer is nearby, but nothing beyond that.

And ASTA's post... technically I didn't miss it, but I did delay reading it because I didn't have time when I saw it, and then forgot all about it. Heh. This is becoming a bad habit... I have to stop getting distracted so easily.
Anyway, I'd everything sounds pretty acceptable thus far; the way the Echoers' powers work and affect them sounds a lot like the relationship between first-generation demonspawn and their powers in that using their abilities grows their power, but also activates their demonic blood and corrupts them. If your explanation ended up being something along the lines of Claw's power somehow causing a degeneration of his Seeds of Good and Evil (which would coincidentally prevent him from entering the common afterlives of The Prophecy, since the growth of the Seeds are what determines the afterlife earned), then eating the hearts of other creatures the same as Harvesters do would potentially counteract such damage... though chances are that if Claw really has the ability to absorb others' Seeds, he would also inherit at least some of the growth of that heart; in other words if he devoured the heart of an extremely good or evil being, the balance between his own Seeds might tip one way or the other, affecting his own afterlife (though I imagine that even if he absorbed a well-grown Seed of Good, the very act of doing so would probably be considered sufficiently evil to counterbalance it).
His power itself should probably still come from his magical energy, though, even if its use affects his Seeds somehow. I also think that the damage to his Seeds should be explained as a result of him using magic at all rather than using this particular kind of magic... as a kind of, I don't know, spiritual disease or racial deficiency. How does that sound?

[Rhaevnn Xeno]

Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation, DJ. I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Post should be up tonight or tomorrow (unless Merc wants to post first).

*Edit*
I grew too excited. :c Post is up! Also, Merc, if you want to post first the next round, let me know and I shall happily oblige.

[Mercinus3]

Rhaevnn Xeno said
Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation, DJ. I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't issuing anything. Post should be up tonight or tomorrow (unless Merc wants to post first).*Edit*I grew too excited. :c Post is up! Also, Merc, if you want to post first the next round, let me know and I shall happily oblige.

I was waiting for you to post first, to see what Morgan would do so Ixion would react accordingly since he and The Fixer are a part of the same group.

As for if I want to post first next time around, I'll have to wait and see what Jack's reply is to know if I can visualize a response.

EDIT: On second thought, I'll let you post first time around. Morgan's still got to respond to Ixion.

M3

[Rhaevnn Xeno]

This may be going over my head (or somehow I missed it in the OldGuild OoC), but who is the "Grand Master?"

[Shienvien]

@Rhaevnn Xeno:

The Grand Master

The Grand Master - The Lord of Lies, the Infernal Emperor, the Buyer of Souls, the Foul Merchant, the Ancient One, the Lord of Skull Tower, the Guardian of Hellfire
The only being in all of the Planes not created by the Spirits of Union (aside from the Spirits themselves), the nefarious Grand Master is a symbol of lies and deception and the well-mannered evil. Having once been the lord of all demons, the Grand Master is second in power only to Kreshtaat himself and second in evil to no one, reputedly not even Ismyel herself. His allegiance is to himself alone, to rebuild his wicked empire and steal back the domain that Kreshtaat and the Nomad took from him in the Age of Darkness. His followers wear crimson and use sunstone for their decorations. His followers are those that seek the paths of ambition and evil, yet resent Kreshtaat and his goals for some reason or another. Followers of the Grand Master also seem to more frequently sell him their souls, since they have utter faith that he will not betray them.
Instead of having traditional Favored Ones such as most other deities, the Grand Master prefers to lend his power to those that would serve him otherwise. He acts as an infernal merchant of power, trading things that mortals have for what they want - most commonly they pay with their souls, although he is also known to bargain for their freedom, making them his servants, their health or he might even merely demand a single favor that always turns out to his advantage. In return, the Grand Master can supposedly offer almost anything - power, the ability to ignore the passage of time (also known as pseudo-immortality), wealth, servants, and just about whatever his customers want. Despite that many are skeptical about him and his reputation as a masterful deceiver, the Grand Master is actually bound by a bond that not even he can break once a contract has been signed between him and his customer, ensuring that he always fulfills his end of the bargain as long as the customer fulfills their end. However, he is known to be cunning and treacherous in designing his contracts, sneaking in loopholes that he can use to his own advantage to cheat his customers, so one should always pay close attention to the details, lest one wants to end up with nothing and the Grand Master with everything.

@Jack: From what I talked about with him over Skype, ASTA has opted for the effect of echoing be just physical degradation. (Which wouldn't be all that different from the effects extensive use of magic tends to have on most beings of Reniam. The explanation was a bit different - in his own canon, the body couldn't properly endure the kind of energy coursing through it, and thusly took damage... But the result is somewhat similar in both cases, so just going with the effects of magical exhaustion would be easiest.)
As for the consuming hearts as a replacement for voice-consumption, then no, it is not supposed to regress the damage the echoing deals to the body; it merely makes the maximal power of the skill grow. I guess the other soul could be sort-of "digested" before it adds to the echoer's soul? It (or echoing itself) having any kind of effect on the mind - Claw slowly going insane, becoming more good/evil, et cetera - is something that ASTA definitely wants to avoid.
As another note, he has decided that del-korm as a race do not have afterlives. (I assume their souls simply disperse and become ambient background energy unless they get consumed..)
But ... I guess with this magical part (hopefully) sorted out, he could just go forth and just post the CS?

((On another note, (and leaving aside the fact that the harvester-style heart consumption more specifically also eliminates the souls of beings who would otherwise have afterlives) I'd say that eating the dead is a complete moral gray. The dead being is dead already; no one gets hurt if the remains are eaten. Our aversion of it is mainly cultural.))

[Rhaevnn Xeno]

Shien, where would I be without you? Thank you! :D Also - post is up. Have fun, Merc!

[yoshua171]

*glances around*

[Dark Jack]

All right then, if that's decided then I suppose it would be about time for a CS. I am privately still trying to work out some kind of justification as to just why consuming another being's heart would increase one's magical powers, though... It makes sense with Harvesters (...my increasing awareness of my own past ignorance is starting to bother me. There is really no way for me to justify writing that with capital H, is there? I'll probably have to change that, too) because they are fundamentally different from mortals and don't have souls as mortals do. The heart is the seat of the Seeds only, which is a part of the soul separate from its magical energy... I'll have to think of something there.
And it was decided that they would not have afterlives? Because of their believing that they won't have them or because they are somehow fundamentally incapable of having them? It's an interesting thought, though... a dead mortal soul that isn't processed into an afterlife would normally manifest as a ghost or specter, or even a true undead, but for them to simply disperse upon death? Highly unusual. It also occurs to me that if this was really the case then the del-korm would leave an impression upon the ambient nature where they die that would be many times stronger than any other mortal. Assuming that there are forests in their homeland, considering their short life expectancy, this would probably mean that nearly every forest in their homeland are Living Woods, which would continue to be strongly influenced by every del-korm to die in them. Nature where they lived would be utterly saturated with the energy, memories and personalities of the dead. It'd be a right mess! Sounds like fun.
Eating a heart could indeed be considered acceptable by some cultures, but unfortunately this is not the case in Rodoria... or most of civilized Reniam, for that matter. And since the growth of one's Seeds of Good and Evil is affected by others' perception of what you have done the act would have a very strong evil tint to it there, and even in lands where it was considered non-evil it would still cause some growth simply due to the general ethical tendency of the Plane as a whole. That said, having your heart eaten by a harvester would not eliminate your soul per se; as I said the heart only contains a part of the soul, which is separate from the one formed of magical energy. Harvesters only eat the Seeds, which does prevent the Wanderer from recognizing their deaths and sending them on to an afterlife... but it doesn't destroy them. They keep existing, no longer having the ability to perceive good or evil (just like the harvester itself) and incapable of passing on.

Ah, and how would you like to have I'on involved, yoshua? I was halfway hoping that the two new characters would appear IC so that a group could start to assemble (they will be in Zerul City, if I recall correctly) that will eventually meet and merge with Aemoten's group... once they actually bloody get there. Maybe I'on would have noticed the fight between Blue and Ixion and Morgan? She did use some pretty flashy magic, after all, in the middle of the city.

[Dark Jack]

Posted twice for some unfathomable reason... Oh joy.

[yoshua171]

Dark Jack said Ah, and how would you like to have I'on involved, yoshua? I was halfway hoping that the two new characters would appear IC so that a group could start to assemble (they will be in Zerul City, if I recall correctly) that will eventually meet and merge with Aemoten's group... once they actually bloody get there. Maybe I'on would have noticed the fight between Blue and Ixion and Morgan? She did use some pretty flashy magic, after all, in the middle of the city.

Hmm, perhaps he did. I think, when I get the chance, I will write up a post. I'on will see Soojerna, but Draven(Syn's character) will not be there so he will merely tell her that he is back "in town," haha. From there he'll be free to notice or interact with whatever he wants to, which can perhaps lead him to the fight you just mentioned. Though he is a bit tired from all the walking. I suppose his magical reserves and natural Penin endurance/hardiness will come in handy then :P

[Dark Jack]

Well, chances are that I'on won't actually have to fight even if he joins the scene. Presuming that you haven't been keeping up with IC events lately, Blue (full name/title Blue Tool, unique secret special forces agent assigned directly to the Blue Duke's service) fought Ixion and Morgan in an alley because she mistook Ixion for someone else, and during this fight she both unleashed magic that created an extremely bright lightsource and, upon cancelling that spell, switched to a much less visible version of this that focused all the light into what was essentially a powerful laser, which would unleash a significant amount of magical energy. Since then Blue was killed by the Fixer (the person she mistook Ixion for, the right hand servant of the Grand Master) and though Ixion and Morgan nearly got in a fight with him, too, they decided against it due to Ixion realizing he was a fellow servant of the Grand Master and both of them realizing that the Fixer is quite simply far beyond what even the two of them could handle together. So now the situation is already kind of resolving itself, and its natural point of progressing onto a different matter is relatively near.

[yoshua171]

Thank you for the update. I've been awfully busy IRL and in the one other RP I'm looking to be active in (though I guess I can hardly be considered active here, sadly...). Regardless, that would probably cause enough ruckus to garner I'on's attention. I'll have to start writing the post to actually know though, since my characters have a mind of their own...typically ^_^;

[Shienvien]

Dark Jack said I am privately still trying to work out some kind of justification as to just why consuming another being's heart would increase one's magical powers, though... It makes sense with harvesters, because they are fundamentally different from mortals and don't have souls as mortals do. The heart is the seat of the Seeds only, which is a part of the soul separate from its magical energy... I'll have to think of something there.

Doesn't necessarily have to be eating the heart (as that more specifically has only been a thing due to harvesters somehow gaining more strength for it), I think; there just has to be something to stand in for the voice-consumption aspect present in his own canon. They do indeed tend to eat their dead since they believe it will give them the strength of the dead one ... and partly because they require a lot of food to sustain themselves and cannot afford waste. Er ... yeah. Would something else be more easily explainable?

Dark Jack said And it was decided that they would not have afterlives? Because of their believing that they won't have them or because they are somehow fundamentally incapable of having them?

They are fundamentally incapable of having afterlives. "Once you check out, that's it," as ASTA put it.

Dark Jack said Eating a heart could indeed be considered acceptable by some cultures, but unfortunately this is not the case in Rodoria... or most of civilized Reniam, for that matter. And since the growth of one's Seeds of Good and Evil is affected by others' perception of what you have done the act would have a very strong evil tint to it there, and even in lands where it was considered non-evil it would still cause some growth simply due to the general ethical tendency of the Plane as a whole.

A moral overlay that strict kind of bothers me, to be fair... And I think it [existence of seeds of good and evil] was one of the main reasons ASTA went from being unsure about afterlives to "Nope. They definitely don't have them." The same, I have simply ignored the seeds in actual character writing aside of the demonspawn and as a gimmick that determines your afterlife. Since people simply do not change in the way the seeds would suggest they should.

Oh, and we were thinking Legion/ASTA could let their characters meet and do some plot, and Aemoten&co would be picking them up right before Zerul, whenever they get to that point?

Edit: Is it Jack or Nessa in the collab?

[ASTA]

Well, I never really envisioned the del-korm having any sort of afterlife, because I've come to realize that it conflicts with what their definition of life is. To them, life isn't something to be squandered or taken lightly, but should be used to carve one's legacy into the fabric of time so that later generations will remember you. Though, life should also be enjoyed to the fullest, and part of that is testing your physical or mental limits.

Reach new heights. Become the strongest, fastest, swiftest, and most intelligent and cunning hunter possible. Stuff like that.

To believe that a treasured afterlife awaits them when they die would, at least in my opinion, make them lazy and make them think that their lives are disposable and/or replaceable with something better.

(this also has made me decide that del-korm are most definitely not immortal; it wouldn't fit them, but I did have some very strange ways of dealing with possible del-korm immortality where, because of their short life spans, del-korm were almost completely unaware of their inability to be die from old age. But, they probably live up to age three-hundred or so, which would make Claw--who is 120 years old--roughly middle age, and his mother--who is 180--just over middle age.)

It's why they place a very stern emphasis on deeds and accomplishments and why reputation is an actual currency in Malkor-Kurz (if you're known as a very undesirable person, people are less likely to want to deal with you, and being socially active in Malkor-Kurz is how you come to accumulate meaningful friendships and companionships, which inevitably lead to favors and advancement in del-korm society).

[Dark Jack]

The del-korm culture sounds a lot like the tarken one, actually, in the sense that they feel an urgency to do as much with their lives as they possibly can, and more specifically with the tarken outcast, the frehken, who endeavor to become as good and accomplish as much as they can during their (very short) lives. Traditional tarken culture would have them neglect personal glory like that and live and breathe for the sake of the tarken people as a whole, though, teaching them that the individual must indeed seek glory, but must only do so for the sake of all of them, never themselves.
That aside, I'm sorry but I really need more, namely an explanation as to why they don't have afterlives. Even if you have a cultural reason for it (one that I do not necessarily agree with; it seems like your del-korm would have no moral compass with the way they work, meaning that their pursuit of "carving one's legacy into the fabric of time" could just as easily (or more easily, even) be accomplished by acts of cruelty as it could by acts of glory) (to say that a "treasured afterlife awaits" would probably also be a grossly mistaken assumption for any mortal dweller of the Planes to make, since if they are judged as more good than evil then yes, they will be able to go to the Upper Plane, but if not they go to the Lower Plane, which is essentially a fate that means either being eternally hunted and tormented or allowing one's self to be erased), this is a high fantasy setting which I painstalkingly designed so that almost everything has a reason for being the way they are. Mortals have afterlives, other beings don't; if the del-korm are to be the only exception from this rule, there needs to be a good IC reason for that. I'm trying to be as accomodating with these new ideas as I can, but there really does need to be a mechanical justification to cram something operating on remarkably different principles than other beings into the world.

Shienvien said Doesn't necessarily have to be eating the heart (as that more specifically has only been a thing due to harvesters somehow gaining more strength for it), I think; there just has to be something to stand in for the voice-consumption aspect present in his own canon. They do indeed tend to eat their dead since they believe it will give them the strength of the dead one ... and partly because they require a lot of food to sustain themselves and cannot afford waste. Er ... yeah. Would something else be more easily explainable?

I've been pondering this myself, but with the mechanics in place for this universe a true mortal creature, magic is always fueled by magical energy... and magical energy can only be increased by affecting the soul. For them to have anything akin to an ability to consume their opponents' voices to increase their own power, it would probably need to be explained as draining magical energy from them. Nothing can substitute magical energy, which makes it so difficult.

Shienvien said A moral overlay that strict kind of bothers me, to be fair... And I think it [existence of seeds of good and evil] was one of the main reasons ASTA went from being unsure about afterlives to "Nope. They definitely don't have them." The same, I have simply ignored the seeds in actual character writing aside of the demonspawn and as a gimmick that determines your afterlife. Since people simply do not change in the way the seeds would suggest they should.

...I have to admit, part of me wants to take offense to that, although I'm trying hard not to let myself be bothered by it. As I pointed out further above in the post, you can't just decide that you don't like part of someone else's universe and discard it altogether like that. It's not something that is constantly relevant, no (in fact I did decide that the Seeds do not affect a being's personality unless one or both of them are missing, but are indeed solely a mechanic for determining afterlife and, in some cases, manifesting an aura of one alignment or the other in beings who exhibit exceptional growth of one of them), but they are there. It is a fundamental mechanic of the Planes.
As for the "moral overlay" being strict... Firstly, I may not have expressed myself clearly enough the first time around, so let me rephrase it: in lands where what you are doing would not be considered good or evil but it would be perceived as so by the world as a whole, the growth of the Seeds would be markedly smaller than in lands that shared the tendency of the world, and in some cases local perception can completely outweigh the tendency of the world, so although one Seed may grow because of it, the other may grow more. Secondly, the lack of a moral overlay on a world-wide basis would result in the requirements for fitting into the Upper or Lower Planes would be drastically different depending on the area, meaning that one culture may be sending off their generous, selfless pacifists to Heaven while another may send off bloodthirsty sociopaths (I go into extremes here, but technically it would be possible). There needs to be some kind of tendency - not a strict set of rules as enforced by religions on Earth or a particular ruleset as seen in the D&D universe, but just a general trend - to what kind of behavior will get you where... otherwise the Upper Plane wouldn't be a very nice place to be at all.

Shienvien said Oh, and we were thinking Legion/ASTA could let their characters meet and do some plot, and Aemoten&co would be picking them up right before Zerul, whenever they get to that point?

Another stop on the way there?... I suppose it can be done. I just hope it'll be a short stop for once...

Shienvien said Edit: Is it Jack or Nessa in the collab?

I have a feeling that I certainly could and should post, but at the same time I don't think there's anything in the way of Nessa posting, either. Whoever gets to it first does it first, I'd say.

[ASTA]

That aside, I'm sorry but I really need more, namely an explanation as to why they don't have afterlives. Even if you have a cultural reason for it (one that I do not necessarily agree with; it seems like your del-korm would have no moral compass with the way they work, meaning that their pursuit of "carving one's legacy into the fabric of time" could just as easily (or more easily, even) be accomplished by acts of cruelty as it could by acts of glory) (to say that a "treasured afterlife awaits" would probably also be a grossly mistaken assumption for any mortal dweller of the Planes to make, since if they are judged as more good than evil then yes, they will be able to go to the Upper Plane, but if not they go to the Lower Plane, which is essentially a fate that means either being eternally hunted and tormented or allowing one's self to be erased), this is a high fantasy setting which I painstalkingly designed so that almost everything has a reason for being the way they are. Mortals have afterlives, other beings don't; if the del-korm are to be the only exception from this rule, there needs to be a good IC reason for that. I'm trying to be as accomodating with these new ideas as I can, but there really does need to be a mechanical justification to cram something operating on remarkably different principles than other beings into the world.

Being unnecessarily cruel is typically reserved for an enemy that has wronged you in a very specific way. They're not an 'evil' people by nature (I really dislike it when people pin that overused and ill-defined word to some of my species), but their more extreme 'base instincts' typically disregard moral compasses. This really comes into play when starvation looms, which may demand unguarded young to be consumed in a desperate effort to retain's one strength, which is needed to ward off potential challengers or other predatory animals. The former example is seen as abhorrent to the mother of those deceased children--and for good reason too; she is in a deep state of mourning, and has lost her family to a seemingly uncaring stranger that she probably did not know.

But, to other starving del-korm, it would be seen as a method of ensuring one's longevity. If that one del-korm did not eat those children, he probably would have become prey to a healthier and stronger predator--perhaps another example of his own kind, or maybe even a member of one of the other carnivorous species native to Malkor-Kurz. Or, if his luck was especially poor later on, those same children he would have eaten once they came of age.

This example, I feel, only reinforces Shien's previous statement regarding the exceptionally grey nature of morality, because morality is really only given one of its many definitions through the strong observance of a third party. Who was right in this instance? The starving individual that only wanted to live? Or the saddened mother who lost her children to a person who is uncaring? Who is right and who is wrong? Do not think like a human, but think like a native of Malkor-Kurz.

In the wild, can an action such as that really be considered evil? To a human or elf perhaps, but keep in mind, del-korm do not have access to farms, castles, suits of armor, or weapons. While meager tool use is indeed prevalent, the technological feats humans are famous for are out of the del-korm's reach. Humans, by comparison, live incredibly lavish lives when compared to them. A human being that can provide adequate amounts of food for himself and his family does not need to worry about whether or not a meal can be claimed next week. These are the sort of things that go on in Malkor-Kurz. These are the sort of tough decisions people in Malkor-Kurz have to make on a day-to-day basis.

If you want to call del-korm cruel, then you might as well throw your average lion, tiger or even human being in this general category as well, because all three of those creatures are more than capable of being perceived as cruel by an outside viewer.

To conclude: del-korm do indeed have a moral compass, but it is not uniform with the established norm on account of the decisions and actions their homeland demands of them. How they naturally think also has much to do with it as well.

For the question on afterlives: What sorts of creatures don't have them? What are the prerequisites that need to be met in order to not have one?

EDIT: The response to Shien made most of this post notably pointless, but it's still a point I feel needs to be made.