@flightless-angel-castiel Clint at least atoned and did his part to make up for his role in the Avengers mistake. He felt guilty about it which is more than you can say for Buckster. I can't just say "OH HE'S FINE NOW" because he pulled Cap out of the water at the end of the movie.

@Fabricant451 Aw, I thought we were having a fun and healthy debate xD

If you wanna change the subject...... HOW ABOUT THAT WEATHER IN YOUR PLACES, GUYS, HUH? It's rainy here, oh boy. Napping weather!

EDIT: thing is, Bucky isn't fine, and we haven't seen him after Winter Solider because he hasn't been in any other movies until now. Obviously, he is going to be struggling in Civil War. He hasn't been given a chance to atone, and he still isn't being given that chance.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>
So, because he was forced into doing a lot of terrible stuff, he deserves to get maimed? You saw how they forced him to go against his own friends in Winter Soldier. I mean for God's sake! They even showed him getting re-brainwashed after some bits and pieces came back to him about his past. He was just a weapon that Hydra used to kill all of those people. If you blame Bucky for literally being Hydra's weapon, then we should toss the blame to Black Widow for being Nick Fury's weapon against certain hostile forces. She literally the same there.

Black Widow is literally not the same at all. She's a spy. I hold both of them accountable for their actions, and Black Widow clearly does too. Black Widow hasn't done anything even remotely on the level as Winter Soldier has. And the fact that Captain was literally willing to bitch her out for being an agent of espionage only further shows how much he's living in a fantasy world of 1939.

I'm not going to say "OH HE WAS BRAINWASHED IT'S FINEEEEEEE" and forgive him for shit.

@Fabricant451 Aw, I thought we were having a fun and healthy debate xD

If you wanna change the subject...... HOW ABOUT THAT WEATHER IN YOUR PLACES, GUYS, HUH? It's rainy here, oh boy. Napping weather!

EDIT: thing is, Bucky isn't fine, and we haven't seen him after Winter Solider because he hasn't been in any other movies until now. Obviously, he is going to be struggling in Civil War. He hasn't been given a chance to atone, and he still isn't being given that chance.

And maybe if he actually has a character in Civil War I might be willing to cut him some slack. But considering the cast I have my doubts that character development will be a focus in the movie. I mean, why start now

<Snipped quote by Altered Tundra>

Black Widow is literally not the same at all. She's a spy. I hold both of them accountable for their actions, and Black Widow clearly does too. Black Widow hasn't done anything even remotely on the level as Winter Soldier has. And the fact that Captain was literally willing to bitch her out for being an agent of espionage only further shows how much he's living in a fantasy world of 1939.

I'm not going to say "OH HE WAS BRAINWASHED IT'S FINEEEEEEE" and forgive him for shit.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a vision of the world from when it wasn't so fucked up as it is now. Sure, Capt has outdated ideals, and yeah, in certain scenarios, I agree that his ways aren't correct, but at least he's upfront about what he believes. There is no hiding what he does/doesn't feel. If he likes an idea, he'll say so. If he doesn't, he'll do the same there. When it comes to those like Natasha and Fury, there have been several times where they used the power of manipulation and deceit to get what they want. For fury, I can easily point at the faux-death of Coulson to give the Avengers motivation. Sure it worked, but it was underhanded. With Natasha, well, as you said, she's a spy - and Fury's at that. You never know whether she's doing something for the better of the team or her own, self-interest.

@Altered Tundra It's rather obvious at this stage in the game that Natasha is never acting out of her own self interest. She's either working for Fury or at the request of Fury to the point that she helped Cap become a fugitive when SHIELD was compromised because the person she was loyal to most was dead at that point, which she wasn't aware was a deception. Now with SHIELD being whatever the hell it is in the movies now, she was allied with the Avengers at the end of Ultron.

Chances are pretty high at this point that whatever Natasha does will in some way benefit the team. Widow knows the value in manipulation and subterfuge because literally everyone else would prefer just going smashy smashy shooty shieldy to get things done.

Whose USB was it that was a plot point in Winter Soldier and who was it that got it? Widow.

<Snipped quote by flightless-angel-castiel>

And maybe if he actually has a character in Civil War I might be willing to cut him some slack. But considering the cast I have my doubts that character development will be a focus in the movie. I mean, why start now

Whoop, guess that subject change didn't work... it was a boring one, I admit.

Well, the movie hasn't come out, so passing judgement now would be strange. And the cast, in my opinion, are a great cast of actors who can show a range of emotions and development. UNFORTUNATELY, I feel like the plot is more so going to focus more heavily on the disagreements, rather than Bucky's struggles of getting over Hydra's brainwash, and so yeah, character development probably won't be that great. The problem with those movies is that, while there is development and the actors do great with what they're given, it's gotta be about action first and foremost. There has been great scenes in all Avengers movie, though, of development and telling reveals of the characters on top of the action. So, yeah, the action is, of course, going to be a focus because that's what the movie-goers want, but I'm hopeful there will be some development shining upon Bucky, and showing his struggle of remembering the things Hydra took away from him.

Because, again, Bucky had no control over himself. And I am positive he feels like fucking trash over what Hydra has made him done, and I am also positive he will want to atone for it.

I feel bad for the others that will come back and see us debating about Marvel. This is a good night for me, though. Marvel is life for me.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

Whoop, guess that subject change didn't work... it was a boring one, I admit.

Well, the movie hasn't come out, so passing judgement now would be strange. And the cast, in my opinion, are a great cast of actors who can show a range of emotions and development. UNFORTUNATELY, I feel like the plot is more so going to focus more heavily on the disagreements, rather than Bucky's struggles of getting over Hydra's brainwash, and so yeah, character development probably won't be that great. The problem with those movies is that, while there is development and the actors do great with what they're given, it's gotta be about action first and foremost. There has been great scenes in all Avengers movie, though, of development and telling reveals of the characters on top of the action. So, yeah, the action is, of course, going to be a focus because that's what the movie-goers want, but I'm hopeful there will be some development shining upon Bucky, and showing his struggle of remembering the things Hydra took away from him.

Because, again, Bucky had no control over himself. And I am positive he feels like fucking trash over what Hydra has made him done, and I am also positive he will want to atone for it.

I feel bad for the others that will come back and see us debating about Marvel. This is a good night for me, though. Marvel is life for me.

I don't have a problem with the actors. I think most of them are fine at what they do. I mean, I don't like ScarJo or Chris Evans and think Paul Rudd is more annoying than endearing and Jeremy whoever is bad and Hemsworth is not a good actor but I mean they're fine. I just meant that the movie seems to be loaded with characters and all the promotional stuff makes this out to be like an Avengers but with the C-Tier guys now, and considering the last Avengers movie well...you understand my skepticism. My problem with Marvel movies is that they never really aspire to be anything other than makework because they don't have to. Winter Soldier was the first time I was almost convinced that one of their movies could legit be great but then the third act happened and I was back to my "Oh, wait, no, it's just the same, nevermind" mentality.

The movies will never have great characters or development because that's not the point of these movies. They're fine for big dumb action movies but I'm at the point in my life where my whole 'I like nerdy things and comic books' doesn't translate to 'OH SHIT THE CHARACTERS I LIKE ON THE SCREEN THIS IS AWESOME' and I wind up just leaving any given Marvel movie going 'Well I mean I guess it was okay?', or 'I'm glad they got rid of Whedon because boy that was bad' or 'Oh right it's Thor that's why it was garbage'.

Stark had an entire movie of PTSD that ended with him destroying his suits and then the next time we see him he's fine and dandy and has a bunch of suits again because consistency is too hard I guess.

I'm not one of those people that are like 'CAPE MOVIES ARE THE WORST UGH' but I am one of those people that are like 'Why can't these movies be BETTER?'

<Snipped quote by flightless-angel-castiel>

I don't have a problem with the actors. I think most of them are fine at what they do. I mean, I don't like ScarJo or Chris Evans and think Paul Rudd is more annoying than endearing and Jeremy whoever is bad and Hemsworth is not a good actor but I mean they're fine. I just meant that the movie seems to be loaded with characters and all the promotional stuff makes this out to be like an Avengers but with the C-Tier guys now, and considering the last Avengers movie well...you understand my skepticism. My problem with Marvel movies is that they never really aspire to be anything other than makework because they don't have to. Winter Soldier was the first time I was almost convinced that one of their movies could legit be great but then the third act happened and I was back to my "Oh, wait, no, it's just the same, nevermind" mentality.

The movies will never have great characters or development because that's not the point of these movies. They're fine for big dumb action movies but I'm at the point in my life where my whole 'I like nerdy things and comic books' doesn't translate to 'OH SHIT THE CHARACTERS I LIKE ON THE SCREEN THIS IS AWESOME' and I wind up just leaving any given Marvel movie going 'Well I mean I guess it was okay?', or 'I'm glad they got rid of Whedon because boy that was bad' or 'Oh right it's Thor that's why it was garbage'.

Stark had an entire movie of PTSD that ended with him destroying his suits and then the next time we see him he's fine and dandy and has a bunch of suits again because consistency is too hard I guess.

I'm not one of those people that are like 'CAPE MOVIES ARE THE WORST UGH' but I am one of those people that are like 'Why can't these movies be BETTER?'

Oh, oh, I adore Chris Evans so I don't feel you there. ScarJo, eh. I'm iffy on her. I didn't like her in Lucy at all, but I didn't think the movie was that great, either. As for the others, I don't have a big problem with them. Then again, like I'll say again later, I'm biased towards Marvel movies, so a little biased towards the actors. I admit it, but I can see where you're coming from, for sure.

Oh no, I feel you. I give Marvel movies too much credit, I admit it, but that's because I grew up on them and am very attached to them. I'm biased. But you are right. Their character development is rocky and do not even get me started on the weird, out of the fucking blue Hulk/Widow romance that happened, I am still thrown for a loop by that. Where was the build up? No where? Eh, maybe the Hulk and Iron Man knocked down the build up while they were fighting before I saw it, Idk.

I would love a Marvel movie that does dive deeper into the PTSD the characters have, because c'mon, they obviously have it. One that'll concentrate on the characters rather than the action. But, the audience that goes to see these movies like the action, rather than a deeper story about diving into a character's mind. I love the movies, but I eat up those brief scenes of small development and of that Stark scene of him doing that, and just take it as it is.

Don't worry, I'm weary going into Civil War. Like, I'm excited, because I will see my faves on the big screen, but I also know it isn't going to be great. Like Age of Ultron. God, I left the movies going, 'that was... that was... not... that good.' I try to not worry about them skimming over character development or not being consistent but that's impossible for me and I see it all. Now, I still can enjoy them, but I also agree with you. They can be so much better, and I hope one day, someone will make them better... maybe a day when I'm six feet under 'cause it's a remake yeaaaars from now and I'll watch it as a ghost, Idk.

(This reminds me of the reboot Star Trek movies. A wonderfully deep show about the characters and actual issues dumbed down into action and half naked women. Fucking beautiful, right?)

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

Oh, oh, I adore Chris Evans so I don't feel you there.

I'll just say it now: I liked him more as Johnny Storm. I've just...I've never seen him in a movie where I went "Man that's a good actor". I don't think he's bad I just...not a fan.

ScarJo, eh. I'm iffy on her. I didn't like her in Lucy at all, but I didn't think the movie was that great, either.

I've seen two movies where I've liked her and then she's spent the entire rest of her career showing me that I was stupid for ever thinking she'd be someone to watch. Then there was a moment in 2014 where I was like "Oh man she's finally...nope, never mind".

(This reminds me of the reboot Star Trek movies. A wonderfully deep show about the characters and actual issues dumbed down into action and half naked women. Fucking beautiful, right?)

OH GOD DON'T REMIND ME. Into Darkness was like watching something you loved be slowly stabbed to death in front of your eyes.

The fact that I'm a filthy FILTHY _filthy filthy ^{filthy _filthy} filthy filthy _{filthy ^filthyFILTHY} Stucky shipper doesn't help me with anything Captain America, at all. So, I'm just gonna roll myself in a trash bag and proceed to cry about feels. Haha.

Now you know my darkest secret (but it was never really a secret to begin with haha _{maybe i should spend less time ready singledad!steve/neighbor!bucky fics and crying about them all day})

Most of Chris Evans' appeal is in his genuineness and his utter lack of subtlety when it comes to anything he does outside of acting. I personally think Captain America has been one of his best roles in film making. But, also Snowpiercer. I thought he was quite excellent in that, but if I were to rate him, he'd still be a B-Actor, especially compared with someone like RDJ and Redford.

@HalfOfLancelot _{it's okay we still love you}

OH GOD DON'T REMIND ME. Into Darkness was like watching something you loved be slowly stabbed to death in front of your eyes.

You once again understand me. Into Darkness was so... so... bad. I still flinch at the memory of it. And can we talk about Spock and Uhura because WHAT?!

The fact that I'm a filthy FILTHY _filthy filthy ^{filthy _filthy} filthy filthy _{filthy ^filthyFILTHY} Stucky shipper doesn't help me with anything Captain America, at all. So, I'm just gonna roll myself in a trash bag and proceed to cry about feels. Haha.

Now you know my darkest secret (but it was never really a secret to begin with haha _{maybe i should spend less time ready singledad!steve/neighbor!bucky fics and crying about them all day})

Most of Chris Evans' appeal is in his genuineness and his utter lack of subtlety when it comes to anything he does outside of acting. I personally think Captain America has been one of his best roles in film making. But, also Snowpiercer. I thought he was quite excellent in that, but if I were to rate him, he'd still be a B-Actor, especially compared with someone like RDJ and Redford.

Then I am filthy trash with you! No shame in my Stucky game i'm so fucking horrible it's my fave thing ever
no no no singledad!steve/neighbor!bucky is my weakness NO

Dude, Snowpiercer! I thought he did really well in that as well, I quite enjoyed watching him in that. I've seen it more than once if that says anything; that scene where he admits (for people who haven't seen this movie, they're gonna go WTF) that baby tastes the best, damn! He did so well.

I'm disappointed in the fact that Marvel went with Civil War when they were originally going to continue the route of First Avenger and Winter Soldier by making the third Captain America movie more personal to the characters (Steve, Bucky, Sam, and Natasha). I think that could have been an excellent film even if it may not have surpassed Antman or Winter Soldier in terms of quality - but, I also don't doubt the Russos could turn out a good film regardless, maybe even better than Civil War.

Right now, it seems a bit convoluted, especially when compared to the comic's version of Civil War where you had a much bigger fight about a much bigger issue. Right now, it's a watered down Registration Act that thinly veils Cap's actual reason for fighting, which is for Bucky, a more personal mission that comes off as selfish if you either a.) don't ship Stucky (which makes it some kind of giant romantic thing which is less icky than Steve/Sharon imo. god that's Peggy's niece please no I love Peggy too much for this) or b.) don't BROTP those two boys harder than Steve and Tony.

While I think the movie itself is going to be really, really good (and that's the Marvel fan in me talking) and that it's going to be better than BvS, which it's meant to compete with, I personally think that, without the rights to most of the Marvel franchise (which Fox still has a lot of) and without the mutant deal to back this Registration Act conflict (even if most of the X-men chose to stay out of it) it seems a little bit of a reach to make an entire movie out of.

I think, though, I'll hold my opinion until I go see it myself.

<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

You once again understand me. Into Darkness was so... so... bad. I still flinch at the memory of it. And can we talk about Spock and Uhura because WHAT?!

<Snipped quote by HalfOfLancelot>

Then I am filthy trash with you! No shame in my Stucky game i'm so fucking horrible it's my fave thing ever
no no no singledad!steve/neighbor!bucky is my weakness NO

Dude, Snowpiercer! I thought he did really well in that as well, I quite enjoyed watching him in that. I've seen it more than once if that says anything; that scene where he admits (for people who haven't seen this movie, they're gonna go WTF) that baby tastes the best, damn! He did so well.

Ohoooohooohooo

OOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHoOOOooOOoOHohOHOoOhoHOOhOHoohhOHO!

OHOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

here comes santa clause here comes santa clause--wait shit

WELL HERE YOU GO. I BET YOU'VE READ IT BUT HERE YOU GO.

Oh it's practically guaranteed to be better than BvS. BvS was a two and a half hour trainwreck and a fundamental misunderstanding of the titular characters. Marvel movies at least care enough to have their movies treat their characters with some sort of respect even if it means having to have the whiplash of different directors having different takes on the movies. Which is why I'm actually glad that Marvel is having the Russo Brothers take over for Whedon because despite my thoughts on the back half of Winter Soldier, that opening scene and quick fist fight with Batroc was ace and the Russo's know how to shoot an action scene.

I'm still going to be that asshole who literally just spend their night going "Ugh Marvel movies" but still goes to the day one showing so really I'm the problem

I'm really just wanting to see Chadwick Boseman because he made me hate James Brown and also love James Brown all over again and he's great and he better not be in the mask the whole time I swear

Oh it's practically guaranteed to be better than BvS. BvS was a two and a half hour trainwreck and a fundamental misunderstanding of the titular characters. Marvel movies at least care enough to have their movies treat their characters with some sort of respect even if it means having to have the whiplash of different directors having different takes on the movies. Which is why I'm actually glad that Marvel is having the Russo Brothers take over for Whedon because despite my thoughts on the back half of Winter Soldier, that opening scene and quick fist fight with Batroc was ace and the Russo's know how to shoot an action scene.

I'm still going to be that asshole who literally just spend their night going "Ugh Marvel movies" but still goes to the day one showing so really I'm the problem

That's always the issue for me with anything I see nowadays. I go into these big franchises and I like what I see, but then I delve into the fandom and there are some real diamonds in the rough there that deal with things that these movies don't want to. Or that they can't. Or that they don't see in the first place. Shipping aside, I've found fan work to not only be more inclusive, but also represents these characters a lot better than the movies ever do. It's probably why the comics are so good in the first place because their writers and their artists are handed down through the fans rather than "Oh, this guy's a big name director, lets let him shoot this movie so that we get more money out of it," or, "This is a huge, big hit actor, we should definitely cast him (because it's always gonna be a fucking guy) as this lead character for publicity." Of course, there's probably little issues and problems within comic book making itself, but for the most part, I think I've seen more evolution and willingness to bend in comics than I have in movies.

I think I've connected more through the 8 issues of Extraordinary X-men that I've read than any of the X-men movies I've seen. Even though I had a huge disconnect when they changed styles/artists in like the sixth issue. (FUCK GUYS ICEMAN IS GAY AND OUT. *SCREAMS TO THE HEAVENS* I mean, I know this was kind of a fact for pretty much any X-men iteration, even the movies alluded to that crap plus Bobby/Kitty is shit when there's Piotr/Kitty but whatever, it made me happy because he's probably my favorite outta all of 'em)

also wanted to chime in that I only went to see BvS because Henry Cavill is my kind of sexy.

<Snipped quote by flightless-angel-castiel>

Ohoooohooohooo

OOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHoOOOooOOoOHohOHOoOhoHOOhOHoohhOHO!

OHOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

here comes santa clause here comes santa clause--wait shit

WELL HERE YOU GO. I BET YOU'VE READ IT BUT HERE YOU GO.

ADJAJAFDKJFA; I LOVE THAT FIC I'VE READ IT MORE THAN ONCE NO FUCKING SHAME.

my reaction to you rn:

<Snipped quote by HalfOfLancelot>

ADJAJAFDKJFA; I LOVE THAT FIC I'VE READ IT MORE THAN ONCE NO FUCKING SHAME.

my reaction to you rn:

Three chapters in, did not expect to get hit with a full sob. I was surprised like wait why am I crying right now?!

Though

Best friends?

NAH

BEST TRASH PALS?

HELL YEAH.

<Snipped quote by flightless-angel-castiel>

Three chapters in, did not expect to get hit with a full sob. I was surprised like wait why am I crying right now?!

Though

Best friends?

NAH

BEST TRASH PALS?

HELL YEAH.

don't get me started, gah, it's been so long since i've read it... here i go again, down this dark trashy path, yes.

BEST TRASH PALS? EVEN BETTER. HELLO.