I'm seeing one huge problem here. For an RP based around 'character interactions and building', your drastically limiting character build options for the sake of pvp 'balance' and making everything super watered down and boring in the process.

I mean, sure if you just want a hunter x hunter sorta thing going, then just say that. But then nein can be used to an extent that is very close if not exactly magic. (Greed island) or borderline alchemy (Chimera Ants) so it seems like that isn't even happening here.

I dunno, just seems like the initial vision, then your refinement of that vision, are two totally different ends of the spectrum. Aren't shonen anime supposed to be fun and over the top? Fist of the North Star being a great early example. Or bobobo, if you want a shonen parody. (I miss that one.)

What I really want is something that's a good medium. Something that's mostly fun and bombastic, but not so much that it can get dumb. If I ever implied that I wanted something other than that, then I apologize for misleading you. This is why I'm willing to bend on the item creation somewhat

If your super worried about PvP being unbalanced, you can always just make death an inconvenience instead of a certainty with dragonballs or something. Its not going to happen very often if your trying character development stuff anyway.

I don't really like that idea for the same reason I don't like it in those stories, it makes death meaningless and feel like there's barely any stakes at all

<Snipped quote by Archmage MC>
What I really want is something that's a good medium. Something that's mostly fun and bombastic, but not so much that it can get dumb. If I ever implied that I wanted something other than that, then I apologize for misleading you. This is why I'm willing to bend on the item creation somewhat

If you don't want over the top and want something more mild instead of spice, then you might not wanna mention shonen. Sounds like your wanting something more like Super Sentai, where things aren't as over the top and follow a theme, even if the story itself can be very nonsensical.

<Snipped quote>
I don't really like that idea for the same reason I don't like it in those stories, it makes death meaningless and feel like there's barely any stakes

To be fair, death means almost nothing in most shonen animes, even the serious ones. Someone is going to be brought back by alchemy, or by dragonballs, or the like. And your probably going to need a system like this in place if you want a large character RP in shonen, as everyone will want to be the 'main character', and in shonen ones where death means something, the main character never dies or dies at the very end. And that sort of storytelling doesn't work when there will be 10+ main characters running around.

Or go the One Peace route and people are ultra durable and hardly ever die. No matter how bad the situation is. And only save death for a device where you need to progress the story.

Either way, if you want to tone down shonen, I'd recommend picking Super Sentai instead.

I'm seeing one huge problem here. For an RP based around 'character interactions and building', your drastically limiting character build options for the sake of pvp 'balance' and making everything super watered down and boring in the process.

I mean, sure if you just want a hunter x hunter sorta thing going, then just say that. But then nein can be used to an extent that is very close if not exactly magic. (Greed island) or borderline alchemy (Chimera Ants) so it seems like that isn't even happening here.

I dunno, just seems like the initial vision, then your refinement of that vision, are two totally different ends of the spectrum. Aren't shonen anime supposed to be fun and over the top? Fist of the North Star being a great early example. Or bobobo, if you want a shonen parody. (I miss that one.)

If your super worried about PvP being unbalanced, you can always just make death an inconvenience instead of a certainty with dragonballs or something. Its not going to happen very often if your trying character development stuff anyway.

OR, and here me out here. Go One Punch Man and just have everything dialed up to 11.

While I've mostly been standing on the sidelines in these discussions (because it doesn't make me any difference anyway); I'm honestly going have to strongly disagree with the points you presented here.

You can have a fun and over-the-top RP by setting up clearly defined, and easily understandable restrictions on what powers are, and aren't, allowed. And I'm not just talking about PVP action - what about for the plot? What if our cast goes up against villains PVE style? I think it'd be better for the RP in the long run to have rules, or we'll have a power-level wank, or some other mess. To have a strong storyline, we need tension. In addition, if everyone is going to have time to shine (... I hope), it would be helpful that everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Nobody wants to be upstaged by a Goku-expy who can do everything, after all. As for death, and OPM... my thoughts are the same as @VitaVitaAR.

Ultimately, we have to choose between having a strong story, and nothing having any real flow, and ultimately ending up being a flash in the pan tbh.

If you don't want over the top and want something more mild instead of spice, then you might not wanna mention shonen. Sounds like your wanting something more like Super Sentai, where things aren't as over the top and follow a theme, even if the story itself can be very nonsensical.

I would disagree that sentai shows are less over the top than shounen, though I guess I shouldn't say too much as I don't know too much about sentai

To be fair, death means almost nothing in most shonen animes, even the serious ones. Someone is going to be brought back by alchemy, or by dragonballs, or the like. And your probably going to need a system like this in place if you want a large character RP in shonen, as everyone will want to be the 'main character', and in shonen ones where death means something, the main character never dies or dies at the very end. And that sort of storytelling doesn't work when there will be 10+ main characters running around.

Or go the One Peace route and people are ultra durable and hardly ever die. No matter how bad the situation is. And only save death for a device where you need to progress the story.

I don't agree with this. Apart from the obvious Dragon Ball Z example, there aren't really that many examples of characters being revived in shounen that I can think of. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's the perception I've always had

@Archmage MC: ... There's a *lot* of shonen where death is very permanent and matters a lot though. Most of them, even. ^^;

Sentai is kind of... an entirely different thing too.

I would disagree that sentai shows are less over the top than shounen, though I guess I shouldn't say too much as I don't know too much about sentai

As a toku fan, I'll have to say you're absolutely correct here. Sentai gets pretty damn absurd pretty often. It's a big part of the charm, really.

...I will refrain from linking the giant train penis attack from ToQger as evidence but just know that that exists.

To be fair, it's going to be literally impossible to perfectly replicate a shonen show in RP format, so we should give a little leeway, here.

Sentai has to actually follow a few of the laws of physics due to it using real people.

With shonen it's optional.

@tipssyCalibrator@Mr Allen J I still don't think you get the problem. Remove the shonen tag, and you guys are right. But WITH the shonen tag there are very very big problems you need to address or its not a shonen property.

1. Over the topness has to be there. No mild stuff, everything has to be super awesome or fodder for the awesome characters..

2. Choose how you want PvP to be handled as thats the problem here. PvE is the easiest thing in the world to balance around as its the GM vs everyone, and the GM/DM has the most power out of everyone anyway and makes the PvE villains to make the story engaging and fun for everyone.

3. Everyone will be wanting to play the main character. This means that there def wont be any Gokus or Supermans running around when it comes to all in one, but if that means you have to sacrifice stuff that would let someone separate themselves from everyone else, and instead everyone is a copy of everyone else except one punches with lightning and the other with fire, things feel same-y and thats the exact opposite of what most shonen does anyway. (And is a huge no-no for most RPs with a 'diverse' world view anyway imo.)

4. If you want death to be meaningful, then just take the One Piece route like I said and have it only happen if you need it to. Its still on the table, but you can also have awesome over the top and fun battles with it. Luffy hasn't killed a single person in One Piece yet, and you know hes beaten the crap out of lots of them. Other shonen animes where death means something, like I've said, are about the main character who doesn't die but only gets injured. And if everyone is going to be this 'main character' in this RP, you really need to think about how this system works.

Sentai has to actually follow a few of the laws of physics due to it using real people.

With shonen it's optional.

This guy knows exactly what I mean.

@Archmage MC: You clearly have not seen very much shonen. Or... action anime in general.

The power scale wildly varies across all different series. There's not some consistent level. And all of them still have a setting with rules regardless of how much they ignore physics. In fact, a lot of them take time to explain these rules so that weird stuff is even more shocking or that the viewer understands what's going on in a fight.

The rules *help* the over the top... ness.

Also, shonen's a demographic, not a genre.

RPs almost always have no true main character, and if people are creative writers they can introduce variety within the rules of the RP's setting. I've seen it many times before.

Killing off player characters all the time is bad. You shouldn't do it unless it's on the player's term. But making death a joke *in the setting* is a terrible idea because it removes a lot of the drama from fights with the villains.

The heroes don't have to aim to kill. But if that's the case then the villains being murderous in intent can make them all the more dastardly, and can be a good demarcation for variety in villains. Is one more noble? Does one leave their enemies alive so they can get stronger for next time?

Totally removing the danger of death *in the setting* can harm a story like this if you want a serious plot.

Now, there's plenty of things that don't have a danger of death in them that I enjoy a lot. But when it comes to something *like this*, even if the players know it's not going to happen it can still assist in the feeling of what we're writing.

Jesus, why does this have to be a debate thread on what truly makes something Shonen?

@Mercurial: It doesn't, but I don't think scrapping the setting rules the GM has come up is a fair thing to ask for.

Jesus, why does this have to be a debate thread on what truly makes something Shonen?

Mostly because the OP lured tons of people in here with the idea of a shonen anime, then backpeddled as the IC blew up. I'm fine with him changing the title to something else, but atm this isn't shonen.

@VitaVitaAR

If death wasn't the main point of PvP battles according to how the GM wants to balance things, then we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

That One Punch Man RP that was here a little while ago didn't modify the source material at all and lasted a long time and was super active.

@Archmage MCI don't think most of the people in the thread agree with you there, honestly.

@Archmage MC: Did the GM ever say they were going to kill off people's characters? I don't think I saw that at any point.

Rule-less PVP just leads to a total mess. You need to establish some setting rules so people know what their characters can do.

Also, um, that's One Punch Man. If it's actually One Punch Man it can be like that.

@Mercurial: It doesn't, but I don't think scrapping the setting rules the GM has come up is a fair thing to ask for.

I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I'm hoping we could all just calm down and go with the flow.

<Snipped quote by Mercurial>

Mostly because the OP lured tons of people in here with the idea of a shonen anime, then backpeddled as the IC blew up. I'm fine with him changing the title to something else, but atm this isn't shonen.

Do we really have to argue over whether no true scotsman shonen could be like this?

So, a few things:

Shonen doesn't have to be over the top just because the latest popular long-running series went through a process of nonstop escalation. Ashita no Joe is an absolute shonen classic and it's a fairly grounded story about japanese street kid finding meaning in life through boxing, the most over the top it gets is having a wild savage that was taught to box. Rurouni Kenshin had flashy fights involving super swordsmanship without going cuhrayzee and ignoring that its characters are humans on some level except when it was a character's gimmick that he was extremely abnormal in some way or another.

It is defeat and the characters being foiled, should it result in death or not, what should always be a possibility or there's no tension and therefore no real meaning to anything. Plenty of works where the characters can lose and not die, but that they fail is what matters. When this is lost it's not a genre feature, it's a common pitfall that takes away from the work. The point of OPM is that Saitama's meant to be a joke and that being overpowered sucks for him. What One Piece does well is make every death matter because they're few, and even without deaths Oda consistently makes the characters' success in the face of difficulty engaging.

I brought up concerns about mind powers and allowing more freedom in materializing abilities for the sake of player agency and variance in powersets, but I feel that if we take those thing into account the set-up as is allows for plenty of variety in character gimmicks. No need to go ham just for the sake of being ham, unnecessary escalation for the sake of trying to make things seem more "epic" is typically where the works start to decline. I feel like the medium proposed is fairly solid and that PVP in these games will always be something of an issue just because of the freeform format, not a lot that can be done about that.

@VitaVitaAR Well, if thats the case, then why is the GM so worried about character diversity being a balance issue? Only GMs who want people to die consistently worry about such things. Otherwise you do what your saying, kill them off if you need to, but its a story death like how death SHOULD be in a story medium such as this.

Let people make who they want in this universe without watering it down. (Or just don't call it a shonen anime OR list a more tame one instead of showing all the big 'over the top' ones in the title.) With rules of course, but not such restricting ones that make Captain Planet look more interesting.

@Archmage MC: Because fights are still fights.

If everyone has no rules or limits and can just do anything, where does it end? I can't think of any setting like that with remotely serious fights, they all obey some kind of logic.

Even ridiculous stuff like Gurren Lagann or One Punch Man sticks to some kind of rules, such as how Spiral Energy Works or different ways different heroes fight and what their enemies can do.

If there's no rules, it can so rapidly degenerate into "No, my character makes a shield that's better then anything yours can do!" and it removes everything that makes a fight interesting. It becomes an endless escalating mess of oneupmanship.

I don't understand what action anime you've seen, because all of them have some kind of rules even to the vaguest extent.

@VitaVitaAR I'm not saying stuff like that should happen. But having it so watered down that you drastically limit variety for the sake of 'balance' between all the PCs seems silly. (besides, someone with a super strong barrier as their only ability makes perfect sense. One Piece has such a character and they still make it work well. Yeah you need to balance that exact ability, but its super easy to do considering how those rules are set)

But remove that whole "this is One Piece/Naruto/Bleach/ext... all in one" concept which is not what the OP is going for at this rate, and choose something more tame like what @Zero Hex said and pretty much all my issues with this go away.