And what about word's like dick?
Also I've seen some women curse words used on men, like bitch.
Hell that's more gender neutral at this point with how people use it.

"Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women. When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.

because large segments of them are really anti-male or truly want superiority for women rather than equality or only want to fix up the things that are bad for women (like income inequality) while keeping the benefits they have (like absurdly preferential treatment in divorce and child custody matters). I'm the kind of person who wants to see income inequality go away and see men get a fair shake in divorce and child custody proceedings, because that's what equality would look like.

hahahahaHAHAHAH! I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles. You're adorable. Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well. It's because of gender rolls that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female), it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).

Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.

As an unbiased opinion, I think this whole argument (read: the back and forth between certain people advocating feminism or whatever and the logical thinking people such as Yorick and Brovo, who are advocating for fucking equality all around) is retarded.
Like, seriously.
Go do something decent with your time, instead of retardedly attacking Brovo and Yorick's opinion (which is actually logical and straight-forward as opinions go) in a never-ending circlejerk of a thread.
EDIT: Seriously, anything is better than posting in this circlejerk of a thread.
Now then, time to go back to writing up my Tabletop RPG System.
EDIT V2.0:
I win the thread.

I suppose I can do one of those mega posts I used to do again, all for fun. In this case, I think I'm going to dissect arguments. *Grabs surgical gloves* :p

IRLGoat said
Aahhh, I think... there are many ways to slice this topic. As a girl, I can confidently say sexism is alive and well in the geek community.

Alright. Lets see what sources, argumentation, and illustrations you use.

IRLGoat said The problem is most dudes seem to have the same beliefs. That it isn't really the most vital topic, or that it is "typically not all that big an issue".

Generally though it isn't. Women have the same rights as men across all games so far as I'm aware. (Or at least 99.99% of them.) Sexism is portrayed primarily and purely from individual community members.

There are some systemic issues I'm happy to discuss and grant ground on, like the vast majority of women are portrayed as sexually attractive while men can come in all shapes and sizes (though the majority still tend to fit the grizzled eight pack soldier subtype). There's also the issue of how to write a strong female character without assigning attributes that are traditionally masculine in a writing community that is still trying to figure out how video game writing... Works.

IRLGoat said Being a male in a male-dominant community makes it hard for you to empathize on our part, so I can understand... sorta...

Except no. This is basing the argument on the idea that men cannot empathize with being the minority when the nerd community in general is a minority. Most, if not all people who are active in the community, have been bullied for it. Verbally abused, ostracized, or even physically assaulted. Regardless of gender, nerds are generally capable of understanding what it feels like to be the outcast in the room.

IRLGoat said Claiming that is isn't a big deal because it can happen to guys as well is also kinda... dumb.

Why? How is that dumb? Men can be shot, women can be shot, this does not make guns sexist and the argument invalid.

IRLGoat said Claiming that "anything can happen to anyone, it just happened to happen to a girl" doesn't make sense.

Repeating oneself?

IRLGoat said Because it almost always happens to girls. I highly doubt many guys get "You're faking it!" before "Cool shirt, bro!".

I've been called a faker before and I'm a hardcore enough Trekkie that I've watched every single episode of every single series ever released. It happens to everyone. I will concede that it probably happens to women more often though because a lot of guys in general tend to be absolutely dumbfoundedly stupid around women.

IRLGoat said Nor will they have their interests questioned... in order to prove their legitimacy like they're some sort of super secret spy woman.

Repeat?

IRLGoat said My personal experience in attempting to join a geek community have been generally very poor. We have several card/hobby shops in the city. I have attended events in the past for M:TG games and after participating in one at each card shop, I stopped going. I love Magic. I love playing it. But it was so immensely awkward, I couldn't stand to go. It felt like I was an outsider, interrupting their fun. There are either guys trying to impress me with their knowledge, guys constantly correcting me or treating me like I had never played the fucking game before.

Well I'm sorry for your personal experience, but guys try to impress other guys and constantly correct each other or treat each other like total n00bs. That happens. It's very normal. Again, look to any gaming community with regular balance updates, like League of Legends--you will get tons of it no matter how logical or experienced you are. You could be MLG. You could have won a five million dollar tournament. Other nerds will still question your knowledge and try to one up you.

IRLGoat said So I said screw that. I've been on Gaia Online since 2004, and have had a male avatar for the vast majority of that. People would take you and your writing more seriously if you were even guised as a male.

Never seen this personally. None of my female friends have ever been taken less seriously for their gender concerning writing or role playing save in extreme cases and I've been RPing for over a decade now. Sorry but I'd say you just ran through a serious stroke of bad luck.

IRLGoat said I've been told on LoL that I wasn't a girl. Sometimes it's even the girls themselves.

LoL community isn't exactly the greatest, shining example of humanity out there. In fact I deliberately warn people to stay out of the tribunal unless they want to hate humanity for life.

Though, not to be offensive or insensitive, but I don't see how being disbelieved would be hurtful concerning your gender. Your gender shouldn't matter at all concerning LoL, right? I mean you're there to play as a champion who kills other champions, takes objectives, and wins games. Your IRL identity is entirely irrelevant towards this goal, shameful as it is that others treated you poorly.

I mean I was told to kill myself on that game by some raging twelve year old. It's best not to take things said there seriously or you will go rabid with rage within a few hours.

Though, if you still play, hit me up sometime. I'm always eager to find more people to play with from RPG.

IRLGoat said I tried to join a local anime/cosplay group and was essentially alienated from everyone.

Holy crap seriously? O.o Wow now that -is- bad luck! I sincerely know more female fans who are into cosplaying and anime than male fans, like Kagamine.

IRLGoat said So I left that too.

Hmm...

IRLGoat said My experience has taught me to hide my interests, or at least speak very little about them.

Well I'm sorry about that. I'm glad you're talking about it now though. I'm sure that such experiences haven't soured your view towards gaming as a whole and won't cause you to make extreme generalizations about the entire multi-billion dollar indust--

IRLGoat said Games have objectified and sexualized women to outrageous ends.

Dammit.

IRLGoat said And let's not get started on Suureee, anyone can pick up a controller and play a game.

... Because anyone can? Regardless of their age, gender, race, or otherwise? The only determination I can think of is financial. Poor people won't own as many games, consoles, etc, as rich people will. That's... About it really. Anyone can play as Mario saving Peach, or play Mirror's Edge and jump from rooftop to rooftop, or Civilization V as a tyrannical version of Gandhi or a peace loving version of Catherine. That's the main thing games have going for them, really, is... Anyone can. If they choose to.

IRLGoat said It is the responsibility of other players to make a girl feel comfortable and welcome.

Wut. No. It is not the responsibility of the player to make another player feel comfortable and welcome. This would be like saying that everyone in the movie theater should make sure everyone else in the movie theater is 100% comfortable and welcome. No, that's the job of the staff, that's the job of the people running the game to decide what level of comfort they wish to enforce. The players, audience members, or otherwise, have paid to be entertained. That is all. Anything beyond that is up to them to decide.

Now. That isn't to say that they shouldn't do these things. Frankly a community should always be welcoming of new members if it wants to survive long term. They should, but they're not directly responsible to do so.

IRLGoat said Which is hard cause most nerds don't exactly have the most experience with girls and think being a "nice guy" makes them the cats pajamas.

Aren't you basically asking guys to be nice though? Isn't that the whole point of this, is that guys are sexist because they assume you don't know anything and what not? So wouldn't nice guys basically... Stop doing that? Listen to you when you ask them to stop, and what not?

If you mean fake niceness, well, this extends above and beyond geek culture into masculine culture, chivalry and its consequences, and that is... An entirely different topic.

IRLGoat said Although there are several things you've mentioned that are silly for me to hear from a guy but I'm going to focus on this one.

"Silly to hear from a guy", you know, that's sexist, implying that my gender makes those statements silly... ;)

IRLGoat said This is really... not a great way to look at this subject. You have now turned the blame from the sexist male community and pointed the finger at the girls who "silly enough" to mention they are girls.

I'm finger pointing? I stated that your background is irrelevant unless you bring it up: Regardless of your gender, political affiliations, religious beliefs, ethnicity, sexuality, or otherwise. This doesn't justify bullying, nor does it implicate that the victims should be blamed.

I mean, I, personally, am an atheist for example. I could go ahead and state that in a church, loud and proud, but I shouldn't be surprised if some people take offense to that, or some further still, try to convert me to their religious affiliation of choice. I'm in a church. This is to be expected.

IRLGoat said That's like saying, "You wanna receive not-hate online? Just pretend you're a young, healthy, rich, white male from the US! Simple as that!"

Wut. No. Don't pretend that you're anything. Just stay anonymous. Don't bring your personal life up onto the Internet. That's generally a fantastic no no anyway except amongst people you consider friends. I mean would you walk into the middle of the street and start telling random strangers about your personal life, or personal beliefs? No? So why do that on the Internet, which is full of hateful scumbags who like to troll people?

Background is irrelevant =/= pretending to be anything. It's simply irrelevant, pointless, you don't need to bring it up, you don't need to pretend to be anything. That's the magical wonder of the Internet, and by extension, online gaming.

Here. An example, a personal example: I have depression, and a couple other mental disorders. Some people on this site know about them. Some even make fun of me for it, or dehumanize me for it. I opened myself up to that the moment I announced I had these things. Is it right? No. Of course not. Did I have to share my personal life with random strangers who otherwise don't give a shit about me? No. Of course not. I chose to, and I live with the consequences of that.

If you want to fight the good fight, that's fine, hell I'll support you, more open female gamers would be awesome even though I know shit tons of them because hey why not, but be prepared for the consequences of that decision.

IRLGoat said This fosters a toxic community.

It fosters an anonymous community, like on Roleplayer Guild.

IRLGoat said And sure, we can say, "Well there will always be trolls online! Girls can't complain because males get hated on too!" But it's different hate.

No offense but not really. Hate is hate, regardless of the kind, it's abhorrent behaviour. There is no such thing as a special kind of hatred. This ties back into that statement earlier about how I'm a guy and I must have a hard time empathizing: Erm, well, not really. I fully understand what it's like to be discriminated against. I, too, am a minority in some communities I choose to partake in. We are all minorities. Every single person belongs to at least one minority and will get bullied for it at least once in their lives. I don't know a single person, male or female, rich or poor, kind or cold, soft or hard, weak or strong, black or white, or otherwise, who hasn't been bullied at least once.

Please don't try to feign that the hatred against you for your gender is in some way different or incomprehensible to me. I fully understand hatred.

IRLGoat said This hate makes us feel like our interests aren't justified, that we're not "legit" enough to play with the boys.

... "We"? Again, I know plenty of girl gamers that while they've experienced sexism, don't feel like their interests aren't justified or legit enough. They don't give a rat's fuck what the sexists think about them and frankly that's the best way to combat it. Play the same games, mop the floor with them, bruise their egos. Don't let the boys bully you off the playground game of dodgeball sister, throw the ball in their face and scream HEADSHOT! :p

IRLGoat said I've been pretty fortunate since I surround myself with 90% male friends and they're all A1 people. SO YES. I understand that "not all guys are jerks".

Thank you!

IRLGoat said We can stop reiterating that. It's the guys who are being condescending and disrespectful without even realizing they're doing it.

Inform them if they don't know they're doing it. Knowledge trumps ignorance.

IRLGoat said I think the largest problem in the geek community is the disbelief that sexism is happening.

I think it's pretty universally acknowledged that sexism exists in the community, but it's the degree to which it exists that is in question, and what effect that has on the female part of the community.

IRLGoat said EDIT: OH RIGHT.Alllrriigghhhtt. I don't know about you or anyone you know, but my gender really is a part of my identity. Like . Your identity is comprised of what you are. A trait is a distinguishing quality. I really doubt many girls would say, "I think my best quality is my vagina for making me a girl." I identify as a female Canadian geek. My traits and qualities make up my personality. Just a thought...

It's a single part of the whole is what I was getting at. When you're in a group, the best method by which to inspire equality is to appeal to common interest and gain respect through that. ex: You're a gamer, they're gamers, use gamer reference, metaphor, lingo. Leave your gender at the door of anonymity, as that isn't where you will find common ground.

Cayden Black said Although I can't write a whole synapse on this subject, I can state my opinion.Sexism in any factor is wrong.

Agreed? I don't think that was in question.

Cayden Black said Now I may believe some things men do better and some women do better but I can't name them off the top of my head and besides, thats more down to physical design than anything else.

Biologically: Men tend to have greater upper body strength, women tend to have greater endurance (especially against blood loss, go figure). Men have up to 20 times more testosterone, women have more estrogen, each of these things tends to grant more or less masculine or feminine physical qualities, and so on.

This doesn't usually stop, say, a woman from becoming a firefighter, or a man from being a care giver. One is simply ordinarily better equipped than the other to deal with it. Thankfully for a sexually dimorphic species we tend to be extremely similar across the board in terms of maximum capabilities. Gogo evolution!

Cayden Black said As for geek level, well, I have a very dam geeky sister but she doesn't know anything about the games or sci fi I play and watch but I don't know anything really about her D&D games or Eragorn books (though she still begs me to read them). We are all geeks in our own way it just depends on the field of study you prefer. I like HALO, Gears and fantasy/sci fi. She has similar interests but not in Gears or HALO.In short, we're all geeks, just accept you work in a different department!

Yeah pretty much.

ASTA said
Never knew this shit was this serious.

Concerns one of the big four, it will always be serious.

thinkertron2000 said Feminism is something that's super crazy important to me (I'm likely to loose an old High School friend over it), but I'm going to have to try to keep this brief, because most of the problems with geek culture are either written here, or understood by this community.

Well that's kind of you, thank you. I'm sure now we're going to have a very pleasant debate in which you don't call out individual people and tell them about how terrible they're being just because their opinion is different from yo--

thinkertron2000 said Jorrick, is I'm sure, a nice guy who means well, but dude? We're not asking you to treat women better than men, just that you stop treating them worse then men, or at least to stop using gendered words, like "slut", "whore", "bitch" and so on.

welpfuck.

thinkertron2000 said Using these targets them AS WOMEN, rather than as just someone you don't like, and this is a super important distinction.

Just like how all manner of insults are used against all manner of people whether true or false? People will target you based on your physical or psychological characteristics. It's a weak, pathetic bully tactic, but it won't go away so long as people still have egos to bruise. Women are not singled out in this treatment by any stretch of the imagination, nor is this exclusively in geek culture.

thinkertron2000 said It sends the message that they're not welcome because they are women, and that they shouldn't be playing these games, or reading those comics, or whatever your flavour of geek is.Western culture is already extremely unfair to women, we don't need people taking away safe spaces for women.

Men have 40% longer jail terms for the same crimes. Women nearly always win child custody. In rape cases, men are more likely than women to be charged and convicted, even in cases where there is normally insufficient evidence to constitute a solid case for any other type of crime. In the media, women raping men is not only considered acceptable, it's considered acceptable enough to put in comedies. In cases of physical abuse, the man is usually assumed to be the assailant. If a man hits a woman, it's considered morally reprehensible, but if a woman hits a man, and the man doesn't take it like a man, then the man is pathetic.

I could go on, and on, and on, all day. Things suck for both genders depending on what part of society you are talking about. HOWEVER! Things are better now than they ever have been in the entirety of human history in the first world for women concerning the race for equality. Is society perfect? No. Does it still need work? Of course, it probably always will, but that being said, women achieved significant victories, to the point that calling western society significantly unfair towards women over men is... Well... It's nonsense.

Sorry. :(

thinkertron2000 said "Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women.

Because men insult men all the time. We're insulted to this sort of thing, it's part of male subculture. We mock each other, poke fun or do it seriously. It's part of our competitive nature.

Also, no, calling a man a bitch is not sexist against women. Bitch has lost all meaning at this point. It's just a vulgarity along the lines of shit and fuck and cunt. You can use them against anyone for anything.

thinkertron2000 said When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.hahahahaHAHAHAH!

Erm, are you okay? Manic laughter is not a good sign for mental health.

Also, "bitch" actually originally meant to be compared to a female dog. An animal. Something that drools, is unsophisticated, that smells.

thinkertron2000 said I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles.

I've read plenty of feminist articles. My ex was a feminist, she and I still talk as friends though we don't get along on some key points that doesn't stop us from being friends.

thinkertron2000 said You're adorable.

Ad hominems do not help your arguments.

thinkertron2000 said Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well.

A patriarchal society is one in which men are dominant over women. If this was true, why would we spend more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research? Why would women take preference over men where it concerns blindly having to choose in saving lives? (ex: If you have to choose between saving a woman or saving a man, you save the woman. The man is always left to die, he's a disposable cog in the murder machine.) Ever heard the phrase "women and children to the life rafts"?

Women can vote. Women can freely voice their opinions, gain funding, and run for political office. Women can be judges and juries. Women can set laws, and work any jobs they so choose.

Women are equal to men in nearly every capacity. What's left over is tweaks to the system that need to be done over time to keep the system healthy, and move forward towards further equality.

Also I think you meant role*. Although gender rolls sound delicious.

thinkertron2000 said It's because of gender rolls

roles* sorry, I can't help it.

thinkertron2000 said that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female),

Isn't it convenient to point out that men are more abusive than women... On record... ;)

thinkertron2000 said it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).

That doesn't even make logical sense. Why would a society run by men for the benefit of men ignore the plights of men. That's like if a king ruled an entire kingdom and did so for the benefit of his enemies?...

thinkertron2000 said Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.

Or... Bare with me... It's because of a victim complex that makes it convenient to view the world in black and white and give blatant and obvious targets that are otherwise incorporeal and non-existent for the purposes of making life and all its problems simpler. Why can't I get a job? Patriarchy! Why do I feel depressed? Patriarchy! Why can't I get everything I want in life? Patriarchy!!!

The reality of the situation is this: The entire world is a series of greys. Nobody is perfectly good, nobody is perfectly evil. Even Hitler had moral standards for fucks sake: He refused to use mustard gas despite its effectiveness in the trenches of WW I because he found it immoral after it had been used on him when he was a soldier in the German army. No, there isn't an all-powerful world-wide patriarchy that for some reason ignores the plights of men while being ruled by men for the benefit of men. The world is simply a painful place full of unfortunate shit.

Now, we... -Could- keep blaming it on something that, statistically speaking, doesn't exist... Or we could address each issue one by one and repair them over time. Identify definite problems, and fix the ones we can fix. The rest we have to live with and tolerate as simply being part of life. There will always be bigots and sexists and racists and so on. There will always be people who think I should be dead because I'm an atheist or because I have depression and that makes me weak, or because I'm white and that makes me evil, or because I'm male and that makes me an oppressor. I don't let these things bother me. They're empty words from pitiable people.

It's when rights are threatened through laws, through the very protections in society, that we should feel threatened.

I'm not saying to ignore problems. I'm saying to identify shit we can fix, fix it, and simply deal with the rest as the unfortunate consequence of life, instead of blaming an all powerful, all convenient entity that, well, scientifically speaking... Doesn't exist.

Zed said
As an unbiased opinion, I think this whole argument (read: the back and forth between certain people advocating feminism or whatever and the logical thinking people such as Yorick and Brovo, who are advocating for fucking equality all around) is retarded.Like, seriously.Go do something decent with your time, instead of retardedly attacking Brovo and Yorick's opinion (which is actually logical and straight-forward as opinions go) in a never-ending circlejerk of a thread.EDIT: Seriously, anything is better than posting in this circlejerk of a thread.Now then, time to go back to writing up my Tabletop RPG System.EDIT V2.0:I win the thread.

You're not helping.

The lengths that people reach towards to try and explain why feminism is unnecessary is depressing and disappointing, Brovo, I know you're just trying to do what you think is right, but you're severely undereducated about the world (also about feminism, literally nobody talks like that dude). Have you ever heard of the Bechdel test? It goes like this: "A movie passes the Bechdel test if two women, with names, talk to each other, about something other than a man". Which seems simple enough, right? But FAR too few movies pass this test, it's kind of ludicrous. And before you respond with another boring overused (and, to be honest moronic) point: no, the Bechdel test cannot be accurately used to find out of a movie is sexist or not, it's used to illustrate a problem.

I'm not going to educate you on feminism, if you want to read more, this is one of the best articles I've read identifying a problem with our society: [url]http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/we-need-to-change-how-we-talk-about-rape/[/url] and before you mention this too: That's written by Film Crit Hulk, he writes in all caps and in hulk speak, he has very good reasons for doing so (which aren't important right now), just go with it.

I'd like to know how Brovo is moronic and ludicrous?

He really isn't.

Brovo said Or... Bare with me... It's because of a victim complex that makes it convenient to view the world in black and white and give blatant and obvious targets that are otherwise incorporeal and non-existent for the purposes of making life and all its problems simpler. Why can't I get a job? Patriarchy! Why do I feel depressed? Patriarchy! Why can't I get everything I want in life? Patriarchy!!!

The reality of the situation is this: The entire world is a series of greys. Nobody is perfectly good, nobody is perfectly evil. Even Hitler had moral standards for fucks sake: He refused to use mustard gas despite its effectiveness in the trenches of WW I because he found it immoral after it had been used on him when he was a soldier in the German army. No, there isn't an all-powerful world-wide patriarchy that for some reason ignores the plights of men while being ruled by men for the benefit of men. The world is simply a painful place full of unfortunate shit.

Now, we... -Could- keep blaming it on something that, statistically speaking, doesn't exist... Or we could address each issue one by one and repair them over time. Identify definite problems, and fix the ones we can fix. The rest we have to live with and tolerate as simply being part of life. There will always be bigots and sexists and racists and so on. There will always be people who think I should be dead because I'm an atheist or because I have depression and that makes me weak, or because I'm white and that makes me evil, or because I'm male and that makes me an oppressor. I don't let these things bother me. They're empty words from pitiable people.

It's when rights are threatened through laws, through the very protections in society, that we should feel threatened.

I'm not saying to ignore problems. I'm saying to identify shit we can fix, fix it, and simply deal with the rest as the unfortunate consequence of life, instead of blaming an all powerful, all convenient entity that, well, scientifically speaking... Doesn't exist.

So before I go into this I just want to make a couple things clear: 1) I do not intend to enter one of our notoriously long argument things. I'm going to throw in my two cents and will respond as necessary, but really am seeking to supplement an otherwise agreeable post, and 2) I'll define my terms as needed and am happy to do so upon request if I miss something, as I know many may come to this from different places and our terms may be a big part of that. Oh, and 3) I have solid respect for Brovo and the OP. That said...

There are absolutely those who've adopted victim complexes in today's world, but I think we should talk about that statement further. Some who blame others for their challenges may do so to cope with personal, buried issues, but others may well be responding to very real experiences of oppression. Women have historically been shelved and blatantly labelled as unworthy of citizenship, national service, voting rights, and today, control of their body and equal pay. Many of these issues have only been combated in the last century, and many of these examples of inequality have been seen by us and our parents. This is an example of systematic oppression. When you are restricted to set jobs and roles professionally and individually due to a characteristic of birth that should affect neither, that is prejudice. When this judgement is reinforced with intention in our media and laws in order to place less value on that party and to push more value onto another, that is systematic oppression. You create power from nothing. So I agree with you Brovo that the entity does not exist scientifically, but I add that it does in exist socially. This is a problem accepted as an issue in the federal government and I think we could agree on at least that.

My point is that while some may be suffering a victim complex, others may well be responding to very real societal pressures. I agree with you that we should identify and combat these instead of merely complaining, but a big part of fixing a problem is first making others aware of the issue.

Brovo said A patriarchal society is one in which men are dominant over women. If this was true, why would we spend more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research? Why would women take preference over men where it concerns blindly having to choose in saving lives? (ex: If you have to choose between saving a woman or saving a man, you save the woman. The man is always left to die, he's a disposable cog in the murder machine.) Ever heard the phrase "women and children to the life rafts"?

Women can vote. Women can freely voice their opinions, gain funding, and run for political office. Women can be judges and juries. Women can set laws, and work any jobs they so choose.

Women are equal to men in nearly every capacity. What's left over is tweaks to the system that need to be done over time to keep the system healthy, and move forward towards further equality.

Also I think you meant role*. Although gender rolls sound delicious.

Brovo, you already know about the damsel in distress trope. Women are generally seen as weaker, inferior, and needing protection. It's something we use all too often in narrative and often incorrectly assume in reality -- that women are less capable, powerful, or able to be autonomous. Beyond physical build and all that, which is mostly a non-issue in the modern America, we still keep these assumptions. The idea of saving women and children first carried over too. It's not a difference in valuing so much as it's an old world holdover that places the man as protector and provider. You say it's valuing their lives more, but isn't also disarming women and placing them in a position where they're assumed unable?

Women can theoretically be most anything. However, only very recently were they allowed in US Special Forces. In some cases they're allowed in Combat Zones (makes Infantry hard, doesn't it?), as my ex discovered after enlisting. Statistically it is extremely difficult to become successful as a female director in film and most are forced into working in less prestigious roles, or mostly in television. Women are still less likely to be hired in leadership roles and in political positions, though thankfully this is slowly changing. Women are still, on average, paid much less for the same job with the same level of experience and qualification. Women can run for a political office or interviewed, but are extremely likely to be asked questions regarding their clothing, children, make-up and have historically been commented on about their looks -- and judged by them when given media representation.

Speaking to cancer now. Men can develop breast cancer, and though it's more common in women, I know from familial experience that is by no means as unlikely as it is for a woman to suffer prostate cancer. That is to say, it is more likely for a man to develop breast cancer than it is for a woman prostate cancer (or so we were told when my great uncle died was diagnosed and died from it). So if breast cancer is more a threat to all humanity, well of course it should receive more funding. Oh, and maybe it's worth noting that there are simply more women (at least in the US), and therefore more citizens apt to suffer the ailment.

I think it's a very small request for us to just consider this may actually be a problem, to look into ourselves and how we think, and to make sure we're not perpetuating any of these negative stereotypes. That's all. Make sure we're not being a bunch of assholes -- not much of a request. It's not a big thing to consider we may not see the world as completely as we think and that we may well be a part of a problem.

I won't lie, I haven't read all the posts, because I would catch sentences and make me flinch

There is no sexism in nerd/geek/gamer communities!!

If you tell them they're being sexist and condescending, it'll make them realize it and change themselves!

Truth is, when you're your average-looking, maybe not that attractive female, and you try to integrate a new group... It's very difficult.
If you're a male, I'm sorry - but it'll be very hard for you to put yourselves in a female's shoes. If you deny there is any sexism, you're either purposely avoiding realizing it, or you're so exposed to this kind of behaviour that you don't even realize that it is there. Because those communities used to be the outcasts, and that now they're the new kind of cool "uncool" kids, it's not the same thing as 20 years ago. There are trends, and looking/acting like a nerd/geek is one of them. I suppose this is why so many males have such a hard time accepting new females, or acknowledging that they might actually be more of a veteran. Because it used to be such an exclusive community, the kind where you need to know someone else in order to be part of it. It's like how most people think gamers are males, because it's how our sexist culture works - things for boys, things for girls.

I am sorry if I offend anyone, but even if I wouldn't be a feminist, I would still get a bitter laugh at most of the responses here. Saying that you don't think there is any actual discrimination towards genders is simply being naive and ignorant. Refusing to see inequalities is the best way to perpetuate them.

Everyone's allowed to their opinions, but it comes a time where you have to make a distinction between your personal opinion and actual facts and statistics. It's not because you haven't experienced it as a male that it doesn't exist or doesn't happen to females.

Peace.

Just quoting one of the most famous internet quotes:
Tits or GTFO!

thinkertron2000 said
"Dick" does not equal to any of those words, largely because men aren't as as maligned as women are, and "bitch" as an insult for men is still sexist against women. When you call a man a "bitch", what you means is that he's like a woman, submissive and incompetent.

Not really. Bitch has in common use become far closer to the usage seen when saying someone is bitching about something, so when most people use it they're talking about someone being a whiny little shit, not about them being like a woman in any way positive or negative. You could have made a better argument in this vein for the word cunt, but even that has surpassed its roots into being something else entirely.

hahahahaHAHAHAH! I love guys like this, people who've never actually spoken to a feminist, nor read any feminist articles. You're adorable. Look, one of the biggest tenants of feminism is getting rid of gender rolls, and a patriarchal* society, both of which certainly hurt women, but they hurt men as well. It's because of gender rolls that women get the children in divorces more often (well, that and a higher amount of male abusers than female), it's because of a patriarchal society that male victim rape is so often ignored (also the same reason that female victim rape is ignored).

Nice false assumptions and ad hominems there, they really make me want to take you seriously and respond in a rational manner.

Nonsense aside, I've spoken to many feminists (both of the kind I spoke of in my previous post and the kind you're speaking of), and I've read all sorts of feminist articles and books over the years. If you go look back at my previous post you'll notice I phrased things very particularly, because I was and still am well aware that somewhere in the ballpark of 40-60% of feminists do not fit into the categories I mentioned. It's a very wide range, with no solid figures and only anecdotal evidence to support it, and it could even be far higher than 60% of them that are actually interested in equality rather than pro-women or anti-men things, but in my experience roughly half of self-identifying feminists are of those negative types so my range with a large margin for error rests right on the mid point. With this in mind I said I'm more focused on equality than "many (maybe most) of those who identify themselves as feminists, particularly the activist types." Notice the vagueness at the beginning because of my own lack of sure knowledge as to what portion of self-identifying feminists aren't really after equality. Also notice the clarification about activists, those who go out of their way to talk about feminism whenever possible, as those are the ones who most often (in my experience, at least) seem to be aiming for female dominance rather than a removal of gender roles.

I am perfectly aware of what reasonable and rational feminism is. Total eradication of gender roles is a logical approach to gender equality, and although I don't think it will ever be completely successful due to human nature, it's a fine goal and I'm cool with people pursuing it. However, not all of those who call themselves feminists are actually aware that this is what feminism started out as, just in the same way that most Christians don't actually know all of what the Bible says and for the same reason: they agree with the general stuff and don't bother to read things about it to learn further. Lots of those types are fine too, as they just have a vague notion of feminism = gender equality and that sounds like a good idea to them, so hooray they're a feminist. But there are others of that same lot who get those bad ideas (female superiority, anti-men stuff, etc.) and call themselves feminists as well. Feminism started off as a great social movement that was all about equality, working from the female side because they very obviously had it worse (which is still very true from a world-wide perspective, kind of up for debate in most first world nations), and it was all good times for a while. It has been infiltrated and corrupted by some very negative influences since then, and those influences and the people who follow them are the ones I'm talking about when I say I'm more focused on equality than a large segment of self-identifying feminists; on a related note, these corrupting influences in modern feminism are why I refuse to label myself as a feminist, because I refuse to be associated with those harmful negative parts. I refer to them as self-identifying feminists because I really don't see them as feminists, because pure feminism as it started (and as many still follow, thankfully) is indeed about seeking equality. I've got zero problems with those kinds of feminists, because they've got the same goals in mind as I do. My point is, simply put, that not everyone who calls themselves a feminist actually is a feminist. To bring it back around to the original thread topic, you could say those are fake feminists, but rather than trying to fit in with a subculture they are attempting to co-opt a well meaning group for their own harmful purposes.

Do you want to know why feminists rarely talk about male problems? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY FEWER OF THEM THAN FEMALE PROBLEMS. It's not that hard you guys.

Well, I would actually say feminists rarely talk about male problems because when talking about social inequality they tend to view everything from a female perspective, which would naturally make them focus on female problems. As for the number, well, that kind of depends on where you're talking about. If you're going for a world view, absolutely, no question about it, there are far more instances of discrimination against females than there are instances of discrimination against males. If you focus instead on a particular country, let's say the United States, ehhhhh, "many fewer" is probably an overstatement there. I would agree that women still have it worse than men in the US, but not by some massive margin like you see in a lot of other countries (particularly in areas like Africa and the Middle East). It's still a clear gap thanks to things like income inequality where women are paid less than a man doing the exact same job in some fields and the assault on female bodily autonomy that is the "pro-life" movement, but I wouldn't say it's a large enough difference to make male problems irrelevant. That in and of itself is actually a sexist stance, but it's pretty understandable to wave away male problems in regions of the world where women have acid thrown in their face for not dressing a certain way, for instance. The United States and other first world nations are nowhere near that bad, so dismissing male problems just because females have it worse to some degree really isn't helping the pursuit of equality.

thinkertron2000 said
you're severely undereducated about the world (also about feminism, literally nobody talks like that dude)

You seem to resort to ad hominem attacks frequently. You should probably work on fixing that, as it isn't in any way conducive to a reasonable discussion.

I've met just general 'outsiders' taking part in the geek masquerade fairly often.

thinkertron2000 said The lengths that people reach towards to try and explain why feminism is unnecessary is depressing and disappointing, Brovo, I know you're just trying to do what you think is right, but you're severely undereducated about the world (also about feminism, literally nobody talks like that dude).

#1: In this thread I didn't claim feminism was unnecessary anywhere. In fact, I quite emphatically stated that there are still problems that can be resolved--that is indirect support for feminism.

#2: My disagreeing with you doesn't make me uneducated.

#3: Ad hominems don't help your arguments.

Brovo said Is society perfect? No. Does it still need work? Of course, it probably always will

Again, this is a perfect example of the victim complex. I don't agree with you, so I must be completely against you.

Also, ad hominems still don't help your argument, madame.

thinkertron2000 said Have you ever heard of the Bechdel test?

Have you ever heard about the fact that it was originally a joke that came from this comic that was used to give the characters a reason to go home and watch movies they liked at home?

thinkertron2000 said It goes like this: "A movie passes the Bechdel test if two women, with names, talk to each other, about something other than a man". Which seems simple enough, right? But FAR too few movies pass this test, it's kind of ludicrous. And before you respond with another boring overused (and, to be honest moronic) point: no, the Bechdel test cannot be accurately used to find out of a movie is sexist or not, it's used to illustrate a problem.

It's not a moronic point to note that the Bechdel test is woefully under-equipped to tackle the problem of sexism. I'm not even sure why you bothered to bring it up when you just openly admitted that it cannot be used to accurately test if a movie is sexist or not. LoTR and Star Wars both fail the test and they both feature incredible kickass women: One kills an incredible powerful champion of Sauron with only a little hobbit to help her and the other leads a space rebellion against a space empire that can blow up planets... In space!

Plus, look at the movie industry now, compare it to the movie industry of the 50's and 60's. We've made insanely significant strides in making equality a real thing, with strong female characters that don't have to play second fiddle to men anymore. Men still fill the majority of lead roles but not all of them anymore. Give it more time and things will get better as time progresses. I mean even Disney finally started to change with Brave, giving audiences a princess that was a friggin' badass, not some prissy stuck-up damsel in distress.

Again. Is it perfect? No. Of course not. Is it better than before? Yes. Of course it is. Will it get better with further time and pressure on the right points? Yes, of course it will.

thinkertron2000 said I'm not going to educate you on feminism,

You don't have to. I already know what feminism is. I idolize the first wave feminist movement personally as a bunch of incredible powerful women whom made it a point to declare that they were equal to men without having to sacrifice their femininity. At the same time they didn't have to be bound to the social constructs of femininity to be women if they so chose. It was amazing.

thinkertron2000 said if you want to read more, this is one of the best articles I've read identifying a problem with our society: [url]http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/we-need-to-change-how-we-talk-about-rape/[/url]

Your link is broken.

Though in all seriousness, nice way to use a blog entry on a site known to be biased towards women which is written in all caps and talks down to the audience like they're five year olds.

This would maybe be passable as a bronze-level citation in a college essay.

Now, instead of recommending you to a counter-blog post chalked full of biased information as well, I think I'll try educating you on what feminism is.

Here, try reading a book. This one is about the valiant five in Canada. It goes over their struggles to be taken seriously and their fights for equality and liberty. It also pretty clearly states how they won nearly everything they fought for. You know what the main ingredient was though? Time. It took time. It took a lot of time.

thinkertron2000 said and before you mention this too: That's written by Film Crit Hulk, he writes in all caps and in hulk speak, he has very good reasons for doing so (which aren't important right now), just go with it.

They are important to me because I hate all caps and it's seriously written with the intention to talk down to men based on its tone.

Oh, and for fucks sake, no, I'm not a sexist for disagreeing with most points of the modern feminist movement. To clarify the meaning of sexism as according to dictionary.com:

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

I do not discriminate or devalue women in any manner, nor hold women to any traditional stereotype or sexual role. I mean, good god, Legend of Renalta, my star role play, my magnum opus, has two lesbian couples in it, it has women at all levels of society.

I seriously can't possible emphasize this point enough: I am not uneducated on feminism just because I disagree with you, I am not incapable of understanding hatred or discrimination just because I was born with a different set of sexual organs than you, and I am not sexist for pointing out that the statistical evidence is so heavily weighed against patriarchy in the first world that I shouldn't even need to cite any sources for it, or for disagreeing with the modern movement at most points.

Now, if you want, you can ask me what I think is still sexist. I could list out examples of it even, where I think we could do better, how we could do it better...

...Or you can keep trying to talk down to me and call my points moronic without making even the slightest effort to address them in a constructive way like an adult would.

The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

ShonHarris said So before I go into this I just want to make a couple things clear: 1) I do not intend to enter one of our notoriously long argument things. I'm going to throw in my two cents and will respond as necessary, but really am seeking to supplement an otherwise agreeable post, and 2) I'll define my terms as needed and am happy to do so upon request if I miss something, as I know many may come to this from different places and our terms may be a big part of that. Oh, and 3) I have solid respect for Brovo and the OP.

Well then we shall have an agreeable debate old chap! I missed you. It's nice not to be told that I'm ignorant/a hate monger/etc from an opposing view point once in a while.

ShonHarris said That said... There are absolutely those who've adopted victim complexes in today's world, but I think we should talk about that statement further. Some who blame others for their challenges may do so to cope with personal, buried issues, but others may well be responding to very real experiences of oppression. Women have historically been shelved and blatantly labelled as unworthy of citizenship, national service, voting rights, and today, control of their body and equal pay.

Yes. I can't disagree to this really. The pay gap is startling though not entirely unexpected (pay gap is calculated by average rate of pay across the entire gender, take into account pregnancy leave and that women are often the primary care givers to children and many have their careers slowed or even stopped for multiple years in comparison to their male counterparts, which aids in causing the discrepancy.) The control over their own body is something I throw my hat off and fight with the feminists on. Women should choose what happens to their own bodies. The fact that this is still a discussion in the modern world is frankly sad.

ShonHarris said Many of these issues have only been combated in the last century, and many of these examples of inequality have been seen by us and our parents. This is an example of systematic oppression.

It's also an example of peaceable change. The only kind of change that has been quick historically has been brought about through violence or tyranny. Ergo why I constantly urge patience and preach that time will mend wounds: Because it does, if you give it enough time. We shouldn't be trying to fix these things for ourselves, we should be trying to fix them for the next generation to reap and enjoy.

That, is the unfortunate side effect of living in a peaceful, large, democratic society. Change is slow.

ShonHarris said When you are restricted to set jobs and roles professionally and individually due to a characteristic of birth that should affect neither, is prejudice.

Yes, though whilst I can't speak for America, there is no job or role a woman cannot hold in Canada. Alberta, the province I live in, has a female premier, and the primary opposition party, the Wild Rose, has a female party leader. This wasn't a thing 10-20 years ago. Give it more time and it will further infiltrate the house of commons.

As I said. Change is slow.

ShonHarris said When this judgement is reinforced with intention in our media and laws in order to place less value on that party and to push more value onto another, that is systematic oppression. You create power from nothing. So I agree with you Brovo that the entity does not exist scientifically, but I add that it does in exist socially.

I can't disagree that it exists socially if you use it as the interim term for all forms of sexism (or at least all forms of sexism against women), in which case: It's an undefeatable monster that will forever live with the human race so long as we are capable of recognizing differences in each other, physical or philosophical. There will always be sexism, racism, and so on, and it's abhorrent, but there isn't much we can do save fight the fights we can and disdain those that exhibit disgusting behaviours.

Laws and education is where the fight should be taken. Geek culture isn't, generally.

ShonHarris said This is a problem accepted as an issue in the federal government

Maybe in America, but not here.

ShonHarris said and I think we could agree on at least that. My point is that while some may be suffering a victim complex, others may well be responding to very real societal pressures. I agree with you that we should identify and combat these instead of merely complaining, but a big part of fixing a problem is first making others aware of the issue.

Agreed! Again, if anyone here wants to ask me about pertinent issues in the gaming industry, I'll be happy to share what I think is problematic and requires repairs.

ShonHarris said Brovo, you already know about the damsel in distress trope. Women are generally seen as weaker, inferior, and needing protection. It's something we use all too often in narrative and often incorrectly assume in reality -- that women are less capable, powerful, or able to be autonomous.

The damsel in distress trope has evolved over time as well. There are multiple incarnations of it.Zelda/Shiek from the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time subverts this trope. Several Nintendo characters tend to subvert it, actually, come to think of it.

As well, there needs to be a distinction between when the trope is used to objectify a woman as an end game reward, and when the trope is used as a staple of storytelling about how character X wants to save character Y from serious bodily or psychological harm. Anita Sarkeesian used Double Dragon as an example of sexism because it uses the trope: Well, double dragon is a story whose premise had to be told in six seconds. The damsel in distress trope is easily understood, so it fit the six second timer they had because it was originally released in arcades. (Ergo long intros were a no no.) The story is about a boyfriend and best friend who fight through hordes of gangs to rescue someone they care about.

That's not objectifying the woman. That's ironically giving her more value than the men, whose lives are ultimately disposable so long as she's safe in the end.

Remember forever: Tropes are tools! It's how they are used that can hammer home terrible messages or great ones.

ShonHarris said Beyond physical build and all that, which is mostly a non-issue in the modern America, we still keep these assumptions.

It's hard not to. They're part of the foundation upon which modern storytelling is a thing. As you said, the whole equality movement hasn't really been a thing until the last century. Given that our recorded history is at least around six thousand years, we've made impressive progress for one hundred years, and given cool heads, should prevail to further progress over time.

We keep making those assumptions because it's built into the psyche. More time, more stories featuring strong women supported and built up by feminists, and healthy progressive-ism as opposed to assaulting traditionally masculine strongholds should help too. A big part of why the geek culture is seen as resistant towards feminism is because feminism often attacks geek culture: That's how feminism works, it attacks things it sees as problems. Attack any part of geek culture and geeks will see it as just another bullying attempt and put up the defenses.

Different approach needs to be taken.

ShonHarris said The idea of saving women and children first carried over too. It's not a difference in valuing so much as it's an old world holdover that places the man as protector and provider.

Because ultimately, historically speaking, men were more disposable than women. If you have a tribe of 200 people, 100 men and 100 women, if you lose 50 women, you just lost 50% of your breeding potential, 50% of your total next generation, and will be significantly weaker come the next war or otherwise. If you lose 50 men, you just give every man an extra wife and your breeding potential stabilizes back up.

Is it crude and disturbing to look at it that way? Yes. Did primitive tribes need to? Yes. Did it become the foundation of several of our modern hangs concerning how women and men are viewed? Yes, and I'll venture to agree that men got the better end of the bargain, but it wasn't all sunshine and roses.

ShonHarris said You say it's valuing their lives more, but isn't also disarming women and placing them in a position where they're assumed unable?

They were for a while. It was better to convince women to flee and look harmless so that they would be less likely to be slaughtered come the wars. Promoting a culture in which women were to be kept alive as harmless things instead of people was, again, though disturbing, tactically sound back in ancient times.

And yes, I keep bringing up ancient times because we've derived a significant amount of our culture and society on what has come before. Take the Bible for instance.

ShonHarris said Women can theoretically be most anything. However, only very recently were they allowed in US Special Forces. In some cases they're allowed in Combat Zones (makes Infantry hard, doesn't it?), as my ex discovered after enlisting.

That's a shame, but the US military also has (or had?) the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. They're not exactly paragons of modernism, and I agree they need to change.

ShonHarris said Statistically it is extremely difficult to become successful as a female director in film and most are forced into working in less prestigious roles, or mostly in television.

Now this is something to definitely attack attack attack, but what are the underlying causes?

ShonHarris said Women are still less likely to be hired in leadership roles and in political positions, though thankfully this is slowly changing.

Indeed. Change is slow... But it's preferable to war or open rebellion.

ShonHarris said Women are still, on average, paid much less for the same job with the same level of experience and qualification.

*Points above to pay gap*

ShonHarris said Women can run for a political office or interviewed, but are extremely likely to be asked questions regarding their clothing, children, make-up and have historically been commented on about their looks -- and judged by them when given media representation.

Give it more time. Speak out against those who discriminate. The women running should ask for more valid lines of questioning, and if the traditional interviewers don't work, screw em', we have the Internet, plenty of open minded interviewers for everyone.

ShonHarris said Speaking to cancer now. Men can develop breast cancer, and though it's more common in women, I know from familial experience that is by no means as unlikely as it is for a woman to suffer prostate cancer. That is to say, it is more likely for a man to develop breast cancer than it is for a woman prostate cancer (or so we were told when my great uncle died was diagnosed and died from it). So if breast cancer is more a threat to all humanity, well of course it should receive more funding. Oh, and maybe it's worth noting that there are simply more women (at least in the US), and therefore more citizens apt to suffer the ailment.

Fair enough. I'm sorry about your loss.

ShonHarris said I think it's a very small request for us to just consider this may actually be a problem, to look into ourselves and how we think, and to make sure we're not perpetuating any of these negative stereotypes. That's all. Make sure we're not being a bunch of assholes -- not much of a request. It's not a big thing to consider we may not see the world as completely as we think and that we may well be a part of a problem.

That's fine. I agree on the principle that honest introspective viewing once in a while really helps one to grow as a person.

Well. That was civilized. *Nods* Thank you.

I may be an idiot, but sometimes i say wise things. Nowdays, IMHO, sexism is as much of a thing as facism - a mere excuse. It's just used by asreholes to have an excuse for being an arsehole. Get yourself an ideology, belive in it, and have guilt no more. Some woman is annoying you? Find those fellow sexists and spit in that person's face together. Beacause she is not white not male. See what i did there?

I dont consider myself a "geek", i like video games, know a lot about them, play them a shit load but i'd assume that someone calling themselves a geek would assume i'd know about stuff like comics and table top games and all that noise for me to be a geek. I'm a gamer, thats what i consider myself as, "hardcore gamer".

I cant really comment on the geek thing, but feminism in gaming, it really gets me, it doesnt sit well with me. Its a me-too, have our cake and eat it too attitude from a minority who want to impose their agendas on the majority. They never use or have facts, they dont take into account context like market shares, the fact the majority of people who play games with main characters are male, so male main characters are there so that players can relate to them. They use long debunked logic, like the fact sexism in games will cause sexism in real life. And you'll get people who will say "yep, thats true! Gotta stomp out these games!", but when it was fucking Jack Thompson several years ago putting practically that very same point forward, he was a crack pot with no evidence, in fact the evidence went against him.

What really pisses me off though is that they're suckers ripe for the picking, these gamer feminists and white knights have been taken for a ride. You want to talk about a poser, lets talk Anita Sarkeesian she is a proven con-artist at this point, caught lying and stealing footage, she didnt spend that money she was given on anything and the worst part is that her points have been easily picked apart, her videos are full of fallacies and double standards. She's made a living off of being a damsel in distress, she has literally become and uses to her advantage the trope she originally said she wanted to call out by going to paid speaking engagements and putting on show all of these horrible trolls that have harassed her, she even uses it as an excuse to never have to respond to any criticism because they're all just haters. Just angry men want to keep their "all-boys club". Yet people will still defend her.

The fact is if women want better representation in games, they better start speaking with their wallets and buying games that have female leads and options, rather then sticking to Farmville, Angry Birds and Whatever Saga. CoD Ghosts didnt become the best selling CoD despite being the first to offer female character options. You know, unlike what some people will have you believe when it comes to an actual example, those female characters in Ghosts didnt suddenly unlock the game to the female population in the countries its sold in (and there are more women in most of the big seller countries). You also need to respect artist vision, if a game developer wants a male main character, you cant moan and make him change that. Much like you shouldnt be able to ask a painter to change what he's painting. If you believe games are art, then their content isnt open to vote.

@Brovo: Having read your responses I think your original post I quoted from may have suggested a less agreeable view. If I'm reading you correctly, you agree these are issues, however, believe change would be best on slowly implemented rather than quick and potentially chaotic. I can't say I'd argue with that as it's progressive, yet, for me I tend to lean for a more extreme push in this issue. Sexism in this form is unfortunately similar to racism, not in that the terms come with a ton of baggage, but because both are based on a characteristic usually very visible. If this were something a bit more subtle I would be happy to agree for a slow change. Slow in this case would mean those victimizing are left free a while longer until attitudes 'naturally' change. In my mind issues like this should be thought up broadly then given particular areas of focus. Focus areas that hit an important part of the problem, like little beacons exemplifying change, like the task force President Obama is supporting to engage with sexual assault in relation to students. If we were actively doing something like this starting with female media representation I believe we would change minds much quicker than, say, if we changed attitudes in education (which helps, but takes years to be felt). Anyway, that was indeed civil and I feel like I understand your points better now. I'm glad we agree this is a problem, even if there may be other areas to focus on before geek culture.

Genkidami said I cant really comment on the geek thing, but feminism in gaming, it really gets me, it doesnt sit well with me. Its a me-too, have our cake and eat it too attitude from a minority who want to impose their agendas on the majority. They never use or have facts, they dont take into account context like market shares, the fact the majority of people who play games with main characters are male, so male main characters are there so that players can relate to them. They use long debunked logic, like the fact sexism in games will cause sexism in real life. And you'll get people who will say "yep, thats true! Gotta stomp out these games!", but when it was fucking Jack Thompson several years ago putting practically that very same point forward, he was a crack pot with no evidence, in fact the evidence went against him.

You should check out media studies, I think you'd sincerely enjoy it. We're not talking neo-whatever bullshit studies, I mean actually looking at the history of television, film, and interactive media. See, because when you do you start to see something sort of interesting. Did you know back when television programming was still forming in America a majority of the shows in the day were geared toward women? Since they were stereotypically housewives the belief was that they were the prime audience and consumers as they'd also view more commercials each day. Funny too, the commercials were designed to bump up the audio as it was expected these viewers would be doing household chores or cooking and those doing the selling wanted their ads heard far and wide. In this time women were a primary media focus for most of the working day and those producing the media were almost entirely men (Caucasian, heterosexual, Christian, middle class, men, to note). Moving on.

Jump about fifty to sixty years up and what's changed? Well women are more accepted in television in the US, though in a limited capacity. Many women actually go for directing jobs in film with stories to tell like any other, however, most of these people are declined. The term boys club you use is actually one they use in media studies, see, look you're already ahead of the game. Of course they don't use it in quotes. They use it because those working in the film industry know this is an issue. Because they knew that many films restrict access to women and the way they're portrayed suffers as a result. Women are socialized to think of themselves as lesser than just like men, but give a woman a leadership position to tell a story that treats men and women the same and that narrative can change. Again, let's skip forward.

The film industry makes investments to produce their work in a way I'd suggest is similar to interactive media. So if these two areas are similar, both hiring directors, concept designers, story writers, and many a marketing and communications figure, then maybe they similar issues. Well first let's just point out a fact. Both film and games are media. Many Americans consume media in large quantities, larger than ever before in our history in fact! Let's agree that shooting a car in a game or film won't make you shoot a car in reality. Let's also qualify that psychologists have tested our dichotic listening, in that we hear two things simultaneously, so that it's proven that even if an individual is hearing a series of words and numbers, is asked to repeat and focus on the numbers solely, they use the words heard only in the background far more than prior to the test (TLDR: If you hear something in the background without realizing it, you're likely to still use those words more often). Okay great, those were facts! Now hold on though, if our media is showing casts that assign strength and priority based on gender, won't we grow to expect this over time in reality? Because we're human and we can learn through conditional programming, yet we don't have to be conditioned personally, we can just witness and learn. Monkey see monkey do. That said, if this fine young gent destroys the fascist and frees the dystopian city, overshadowing, oversexualizing, and downright forcing himself onto female companions, would this example of action-reward not begin to stick after dozens, upon dozens of viewings? Would this effect perhaps not be more felt as we play in the role of the character in a game designed to be immersive?

See, the point is that some of the biggest in games and film have already spoken about the lack of female representation. Those who've spoken, and we're talking about lovable actresses/actors, directors, and writers here, they don't scoff at the idea of a lack of strong, meaningful females as meaningless or pure market-share. There are constantly artists in these fields speaking about this as a problem. Constantly standing up because media representation has an honest effect on how our children view themselves, how they learn their roles in society, and how they should interact in relation to others. I talk about this issue as a young male who plays games, watches films, and has a young daughter because it effects me too. Not long before I was born a guy of my skin colour wouldn't be shown on television with a dark skinned father as it was believed to intimidate the average white household (this was an honest reason given in a fight regarding black sitcoms rising in the mid 80s). People of my colour or darker had to play the buffoon character type when our family members got pulled over simply for being coloured in the wrong place, you know, instead of speaking out about these issues. So not that long ago did media representation blatantly sideline a group I belong to, and while that issue is still live today, it's shrunk with time where as representation of women still has a long way to go. So I won't ask you to agree with me or to go take classes in media studies, though really I think you'd dig it, but I will say this is a problem beyond the dollar. This is a problem that changes us and molds how we think with a subtlety and yet an impact. It deserves our attention and it's ironic that actors and writers in the industries have noticed the problem while you, the consumer, still deny it.

Y'know, I think 2000 is covered. But I can't help but feel this needs a reply.

UniB said
I won't lie, I haven't read all the posts, because I would catch sentences and make me flinch

Looks like we're on the same boat.

Truth is, when you're your average-looking, maybe not that attractive female, and you try to integrate a new group... It's difficult.If you're a male, I'm sorry - but it'll be very hard for you to put yourselves in a female's shoes.

That's odd, I find this rather... Silly.

I've spent a good year backpacking and occasion travel on my own. This means that to have any social contacts, you need to approach individuals or groups of people you don't know. I've approached a dozen of people. Hell, I've held a sales job. What it, in my experience comes down to, is that guys generally have a higher risk/reward ratio to mingling; something that drives them to either get better at mixing with new people or to stop trying. Girls have an incubation time, even if you don't look like *insert visually attractive celebrity here* Guys generally have to make-do with first impressions. Even when you did get into a conversation, generally for people it's far easier not to invite 'that awkward guy' than 'that awkward girl'. Especially in a mixed group.

Rather than going 'woe is me' for the first couple times you strike out though, you quickly learn that it's far more productive to simply change your approach and work on your attitude. I came from a rather exclusive group of high school friends, so meeting new kinds of people was hard. So there I am in a foreign environment, a 20 hour flight away from home. I didn't really have anywhere to crawl back to though, I didn't even have internet. tl;dr I didn't have a choice but to get better at meeting people. Here's what I learned; don't get discouraged by a few bad experiences. Just keep at it. The better you get at it, the better your chance of getting a yes. And what do you know; I did get better and more comfortable at approaching people. I can even be an arrogant dick while doing it, hell, that's how I introduce myself.

If you deny there is any sexism, you're either purposely avoiding realizing it, or you're so exposed to this kind of behaviour that you don't even realize that it is there.

There's discrimination everywhere. Gender, ideology, race, accent, education, etc. If you're on the receiving end this generally makes... Well, a lot of things harder. Try getting a job when you have dreadlocks and a beard (arguably these make interviews a lot more difficult than say, having a vagina.) Here's a secret though; just because something is harder doesn't mean it's impossible. It doesn't mean you have to swallow your identity or beliefs. It means you have to change your approach. At worst you have to get a haircut or wear a different shirt. Unless of course, you live in a patriarchy.

Because those communities used to be the outcasts, and that now they're the new kind of cool "uncool" kids, it's not the same thing as 20 years ago. There are trends, and looking/acting like a nerd/geek is one of them. I suppose this is why so many males have such a hard time accepting new females, or acknowledging that they might actually be more of a veteran. Because it used to be such an exclusive community, the kind where you need to know someone else in order to be part of it. It's like how most people think gamers are males, because it's how our sexist culture works - things for boys, things for girls.

Yeah, it's a new thing. People will get used to it soon enough. Not so much because of feminism, but more because of ;"Yeah I'm a girl, but what you should be more worried about is BOOM HEADSHOT. Check dat killstreak bitches."

Seriously, that'll get you a lot more respect. It's true that gaming and geek culture has mostly been a male-dominated culture, but that also means it values competition. Kick enough ass and people will have no choice but to respect you. Except maybe some teenagers. But guess what. Puberty does that.

I am sorry if I offend anyone, but even if I wouldn't be a feminist, I would still get a bitter laugh at most of the responses here. Saying that you don't think there is any actual discrimination towards genders is simply being naive and ignorant. Refusing to see inequalities is the best way to perpetuate them.Everyone's allowed to their opinions, but it comes a time where you have to make a distinction between your personal opinion and actual facts and statistics. It's not because you haven't experienced it as a male that it doesn't exist or doesn't happen to females.

Go into any PvP game and see what shit people yell at one another. Here's a small revelation; most of these people assume everyone is a guy. I think guys are generally a lot harder on each other. Even in my MMO-days, you didn't want to PUG as a male priest. People would make their priest female because they had at least a chance of others assuming they were girls. At this time gender-shielding was far more accepted than what I gather it is now, though.

Just quoting one of the most famous internet quotes:
Tits or GTFO!

Instead of replying to a ton of quotes with reply's basically saying I agree a lot, I'll just note right here I agree with basically everything Brovo and Jorick have said so far on this topic.

thinkertron2000 said The lengths that people reach towards to try and explain why feminism is unnecessary is depressing and disappointing, Brovo, I know you're just trying to do what you think is right, but you're severely undereducated about the world (also about feminism, literally nobody talks like that dude). Have you ever heard of the Bechdel test? It goes like this: "A movie passes the Bechdel test if two women, with names, talk to each other, about something other than a man". Which seems simple enough, right? But FAR too few movies pass this test, it's kind of ludicrous. And before you respond with another boring overused (and, to be honest moronic) point: no, the Bechdel test cannot be accurately used to find out of a movie is sexist or not, it's used to illustrate a problem.I'm not going to educate you on feminism, if you want to read more, this is one of the best articles I've read identifying a problem with our society: [url]http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/we-need-to-change-how-we-talk-about-rape/[/url] and before you mention this too: That's written by Film Crit Hulk, he writes in all caps and in hulk speak, he has very good reasons for doing so (which aren't important right now), just go with it.

I really do not feel like hurting my brain by having to read through some guy yelling in Caps for a long time.
If I wanted to read a ton of Caps debates I'd play League of Legends or go on Ray Comfort's page and watch his followers try defending him.

Also, normally I would go on and proceed with a long response with arguments and points like Brovo and Jorick did.
But at the moment I'm just not in the mood to put that level of effort in arguing someone whose doesn't bring anything to the discussion outside of "I'm a feminist, if you disagree with me you're an ignorant male who doesn't know feminism" that completely wreaks in sexist statements and logical fallacies.

Respond to Brovo and Jorick's posts with some well made arguments and not simply attacking them for being male or not feminist and maybe I'll decide it's worth giving a decent reply to.
Until then... I've got a recently updated gaming PC to enjoy.

Darog the Badger God said I'd like to know how Brovo is moronic and ludicrous?He really isn't.

This. Brovo always seems to word arguments and make points far better than I can.
Half the time it makes me go "Should I even bother adding in? Brovo already said everything I would, and much better than I can too".

Brovo said I'll venture to agree that men got the better end of the bargain.

Just wanted to comment here specifically.
I'd agree they got the better end after they survive, but you've got to remember this did come at the cost of a man's life being valued less and more expendable in the first place.

(Sorry for double post, I forgot the new Guild didn't merge posts by the same user that were posted shortly after one another)

Kestrel said Yeah, it's a new thing. People will get used to it soon enough. Not so much because of feminism, but more because of ;"Yeah I'm a girl, but what you should be more worried about is BOOM HEADSHOT. Check dat killstreak bitches."Seriously, that'll get you a lot more respect. It's true that gaming and geek culture has mostly been a male-dominated culture, but that also means it values competition. Kick enough ass and people will have no choice but to respect you. Except maybe some teenagers. But guess what. Puberty does that.

This. Being a girl or a boy shouldn't matter in the gaming world.
What matters is how you act, how you play and how you get the job done.

And teenagers... Never expect the teenage community to making logical sense or be accepting.
If my High School speaks for anything the very nature of Teenagers is to abandon logic as being inconvenient, and to cast out as many people as possible so those remaining feel more special and important about themselves.

Kestrel said Go into any PvP game and see what shit people yell at one another. Here's a small revelation; most of these people assume everyone is a guy. I think guys are generally a lot harder on each other. Even in my MMO-days, you didn't want to PUG as a male priest. People would make their priest female because they had at least a chance of others assuming they were girls. At this time gender-shielding was far more accepted than what I gather it is now, though.

In my case I more just treat everyone 'like a guy'. At least if another looked at how I treat everyone they'd probably say "I treat everyone as a guy".
I try not to judge, make assumptions or treat anyone differently cause of their gender. I just treat everyone as logical, rational human beings who don't need everything sugar coated or focus directly towards them to get along with.

If you are the kind of person who proves to be illogical, or need's everything sugar coated for you to get along well with others, then we probably get along in the first place I'd just list that person as someone whose not worth my time.

Just a piece of advice -- besides, not being Fonz cool, ad homs are kind of like an admission of defeat. It's the argument equivalent of running out of ammunition -- out of bullets? Fling poo! The problem is that then the stink is on you.

I think it's pretty much all about self-image, jealousy and sexual frustration.

It's pretty much agreed upon that this nerd hate comes primarily (if not entirely) from men. I'll just be blunt. I assume a guy who sees a "fake geek girl" and lashes out over it is only because he finds the whole situation unfair. I figure he's thinking "you like comics and games? I'm OBSESSED with comics and games. You should be impressed. Why is it that you like the THINGS I like but not ME specifically?"

I don't?

If you want to play DnD with me make a sheet, who cares why you want to do it.

e: I'm not reading all of those paragraphs, because I have a job and a girlfriend Jesus people, it's like no-one taught you about brevity.

Blondie said
I think it's pretty much all about self-image, jealousy and sexual frustration.It's pretty much agreed upon that this nerd hate comes primarily (if not entirely) from men. I'll just be blunt. I assume a guy who sees a "fake geek girl" and lashes out over it is only because he finds the whole situation unfair. I figure he's thinking "you like comics and games? I'm OBSESSED with comics and games. You should be impressed. Why is it that you like the THINGS I like but not ME specifically?"

Erm... No. Definitely not jealousy and sexual frustration. Has a lot more to do with social outcasts traditionally ignored by women and treated poorly by women now watching women enter their one "safety zone". Is it still immature as shit? Damns right. Is it counterproductive? Damns right.

Is it without point? No. There is a point. It's just not a very good one.

Turtlicious said
I don't?If you want to play DnD with me make a sheet, who cares why you want to do it.e: I'm not reading all of those paragraphs, because I have a job and a girlfriend Jesus people, it's like no-one taught you about brevity.

Here I'll summarize it for you: People said things and made arguments because they cared about the subject.