I think I'll start working on a response for our end and NOT do it as a collab.

I think a big reason this game's slowed way the hell down is because we're getting more and more into big collabs, let's try just doing some individual posts for a bit and see if that helps pick things up?

Derv! :D Hey.

If you're up for it and got the time, sure. At this point, I was just gonna do a short post to get us started on the Nova end. It's okay if some writers are stuck/busy, but we can't wait on that or we lose momentum.
Point is, if you're busy or it's a drag, you don't have to do it. I'll be on it.

I would do it, having very little else but right and search for a place to live right now, but seeing as how Roland is going to be a part of the boarding party, I'm probably the least suited for the job. :/

Voltin said
I would do it, having very little else but right and search for a place to live right now, but seeing as how Roland is going to be a part of the boarding party, I'm probably the least suited for the job. :/

Could always do SB posts.
Or CC everyone else's characters from Roland's perspective. Portraying them with complete inaccuracy.
We'll blame the head implant.

What is with Lord Baelish's fetish for fish girls?

Tick said
What is with Lord Baelish's fetish for fish girls?

Wait wut. O.o

Dervish said
Wait wut. O.o

Yor a wut.

Okay. I'll rephrase:

I watched Episode 3 of Game of Thrones. EDIT: Season 4.
Baelish be creepin' on Sansa.
What the Hell is with his fetish for Tully descendant ladies? I assume it's Tully's, because he had a thing for Catelyn pre-Stark and wasn't a big fan of Ned Stark. But maybe it's just Ned Stark he's got a problem with, and he has a fetish for Stark girls too.

I don't think he actually does care at all. The man is a sociopath who uses people and discards them the moment they cease to be useful. He played up his "love" for Catelyn because it hides his true motivation, which is obtaining power. His house is one that's poor and of small standing, so if he married a Tully, he could potentially become lord of Riverrun and move up from there. Ned's brother and then Ned himself fucked that up.

With his recent raise up to Lord of Harrenhal, he has the standing to marry Lysa Arryn, Cat's sister, and become Lord of the Vale.

By "saving" Sansa, he controls what people believe is the only surviving Stark. He intends to leverage that to become Lord of Winterfell.

I won't spoil anything, but he's a fucking brilliant schemer who has no problems manipulating people to make things go in his favour. Let's just say he's one of the primary reasons the War of the Five Kings happened and he seems to be the only one reaping the benefits from it.

Also, that last episode pissed me off with the Cersei/ Jaime thing because it completely is out of character for him to do what he did. He didn't do it in the book, and he was disgusted at when it happened to the Targaryen women.

The fuck, HBO.

Dervish said
Also, that last episode pissed me off with the Cersei/ Jaime thing because it completely is out of character for him to do what he did. He didn't do it in the book, and he was disgusted at when it happened to the Targaryen women.The fuck, HBO.

I'd say you could maybe stretch it and chalk it up to his selfishness and his altered state of mind.

Dervish said
I don't think he actually does care at all. The man is a sociopath who uses people and discards them the moment they cease to be useful. He played up his "love" for Catelyn because it hides his true motivation, which is obtaining power. His house is one that's poor and of small standing, so if he married a Tully, he could potentially become lord of Riverrun and move up from there. Ned's brother and then Ned himself fucked that up.With his recent raise up to Lord of Harrenhal, he has the standing to marry Lysa Arryn, Cat's sister, and become Lord of the Vale.By "saving" Sansa, he controls what people believe is the only surviving Stark. He intends to leverage that to become Lord of Winterfell.I won't spoil anything, but he's a fucking brilliant schemer who has no problems manipulating people to make things go in his favour. Let's just say he's one of the primary reasons the War of the Five Kings happened and he seems to be the only one reaping the benefits from it.
Also, that last episode pissed me off with the Cersei/ Jaime thing because it completely is out of character for him to do what he did. He didn't do it in the book, and he was disgusted at when it happened to the Targaryen women.

The fuck, HBO.

Disagree, I'm fairly certain he does/did have genuine feelings for Cat (and by extension, Sansa), as events near the end of SoS (and by extension, further on in season 4) will show, as does his specific history with Lysa, Cat, Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark (and to a lesser extent Ned). You're very right that he's a sociopath that is primarily concerned with the aquisition of power through backhanded dealings and treacheries, but I think he's definitely trying to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to Sansa and her potential role in the political maneuverings to come.

Full spoilers below:

Also, while I agree that the show as a tad mishandled for that scene with Jaime, you may want to reread that specific section of the book. Jaime totally rapes her in the book too. She repeatedly tells him no, tells him to stop, tries to push him away, even bangs her fists against his chest, but he just goes ahead all the same. The only main differences between book and show are that a) the show doesn't display how Cersei eventually gets equally "into" the act, and b) the actual circumstances of how Jaime arrives there to initiate sexual contact (in the books, that's the first time they've seen each other for almost a year, each thinking the other might be dead, so there's a bit of a catharsis to their meeting and to their sexual activity). In the show, Jaime's been around KL for weeks, so there is no excitement from a reunion, or the parallel between Cersei losing a son but regaining a lover. I think Jaime's actions are actually pretty constant across books and show, with only the direct circumstances differing. He's still a rapist, and he's still a pretty bad dude, regardless. This is the same person who pushed a child out of a window seemingly without hesitation or remorse; his trip across the riverlands, while the first step towards a longer redemption arc, did not automatically make him a good person.

If you're the show only crowd, I recommend not reading the following post.

I want to address the Jaime/ Cersei scene. He did not rape her in the book, she lightly tried to tell him know in case they were caught but she quickly relented, she even led up to it with some surprising tenderness. From the book, since I have it right here, Page 851 of Storm of Swords:

"You'll kill him for me, won't you? You'll avenge our son."
Jaime pulled away. "He is still my brother." He shoved his stump at her face, in case she failed to see it. "And I am in no fit state to be killing anyone."
"You have another hand, don't you? I am not asking you to best the Hound in battle. Tyrion is a dwarf, locked in a cell. The guards would stand aside for you."
The thought turned his stomach. "I must know more of this. Of how it happened."
"You shall," Cersei promised. "There's to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you'll want him dead as much as I do." She touched his face. "I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that." She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. "I am not whole without you."
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons..."
"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her. [Some steamy bit here that's certainly not appropriate for the Guild]
"my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home."

This, clearly, is not the same as what we saw on the show. Yes, he was forceful in the book, but nothing like that. It was passion she was receptive to, just worried about getting caught, nothing more. I'm not saying Jaime's a great man, and he's certainly done some fucked up stuff, like the whole Bran toss and incest thing, but violently raping Cersei? What the shit. You can't even pretend that the book and the show are the same thing with the same personalities for that scene. Hell, from the man himself: http://defamer.gawker.com/george-r-r-martin-distances-himself-from-game-of-thron-1565857941

"“I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.”

"The "butterfly effect" is presumably in reference to the idea that one small change in the story necessitates later changes, reverberating for the entirety of the television show. Martin is sympathetic to the creative plight of Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, who are tasked with translating sprawling fantasy novels into popcorn television, but he essentially lets them live or die on their own decision with regard to this episode's rape scene, making it clear that he was does not recall being consulted (as he sometimes is) on the alteration.

His final statement, in which he apologizes for a decision that he did not make, is admirable even. The scene as he wrote it—a brother and sister having public reunion sex beneath the corpse of their son—is disturbing, and would have been sufficiently so on the show. But the so-called "wrong reasons" fall in the lap of Benioff and Weiss, who—in a decision that has yet to be explained—transformed that scene into a rape.

Martin has said his piece, and at some point Benioff and Weiss will have to as well."

You guys know you can use hiders for spoilers if you're that worried, right? =p

Gowi said
You guys know you can use hiders for spoilers if you're that worried, right? =p

I know, but I really don't care haha.

Now onto Littlefinger. Moar spoilers below.

Mosis Tosis said
Disagree, I'm fairly certain he does/did have genuine feelings for Cat (and by extension, Sansa), as events near the end of SoS (and by extension, further on in season 4) will show, as does his specific history with Lysa, Cat, Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark (and to a lesser extent Ned). You're very right that he's a sociopath that is primarily concerned with the aquisition of power through backhanded dealings and treacheries, but I think he's definitely trying to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to Sansa and her potential role in the political maneuverings to come.

The thing is, you never seem him actually demonstrate any genuine feelings towards Cat.

In Game of Thrones, when Cat reaches the capital, he lies to her outright and says that the blade that the assassin used was his that he lost to Tyrion, knowing that she would pursue him and try to hold him accountable for the attempted murder of her son. Her capturing Tyrion and putting him on trial is what started the rift between the Lannisters and the Starks and led to Jaime attacking Ned into the street, which kind of snowballed into the war. Littlefinger knew it was Joffery who hired the assassin, and if he genuinely cared for Cat's feelings, he likely wouldn't have ended up putting her in harm's way. The Lannisters have a reputation for being through in destroying Houses that become their enemies. You don't need to look any further than the Targaryens and the Reynes to see that.

After the Red Wedding, Littlefinger isn't moved at all at the death of Catelyn, and it's likely he knew it was going to happen. Even before The RW, he was trying to get Sansa to consider leaving the capital with him to go to the Eyrie. After the Purple Wedding, Ser Dontos delivered Sansa to Littlefinger, and what's going to happen is he's going to make her pose as his illegitimate daughter until the time is right to reveal who she actually is. Since he knows Lysa Arryn is madly in love with him (she even poisoned Jon Arryn for Littlefinger, which as you recall, set off this entire mess), it wasn't hard to get her to agree to marry him. Almost immediately, he fakes affection for Sansa and makes sure he's caught by Lysa's bard kissing Sansa, where the bard rats him out to Lysa, who obviously demands answers and she's never been the most rational person. She threatens to throw Sansa out the Moon Door, which Littlefinger prevents happening and instead murders Lysa that way, telling her something along the lines of "I only ever loved Catelyn." Which I'm pretty sure is a bold-faced lie to be an evil shit since that horrible revelation would be the last thing she ever knew before she died, and it's also likely for Sansa's benefit. He pins the murder on the bard and Sansa remains his only witness, and this is three people Sansa's witnessed Littlefinger kill since she left the capital. She's smart enough NOT to piss him off.

So now Littlefinger is the Lord of the Vale with what is believed to be the eldest surviving Stark whom I think he likely intends to marry to give him legitimacy and claim over both the Vale and the North. This would make him one of the most powerful men in status in Westeros. Sansa's nothing more than a tool for him, a very well conditioned tool who spent years being tortured into silent submission by Joffery. It might be one of the few things that's keeping her alive.

Also, he's the one who has kept Jeyne Pool in one of his brothels, whom he turns over to the Lannisters to present to the Boltons as Arya Stark to further cement their claim to the North. Not exactly respecting the memory or blood of the woman he claimed to love.

Tyrion said it best, he seemed to be the only person who legitimately saw Littlefinger for who he was. "The only person Littlefinger loves is Littlefinger." I can't find exactly where the quote came from, but it's pretty much exactly what he said. Damned if he wasn't right.

Dervish said
If you're the show only crowd, I recommend not reading the following post.I want to address the Jaime/ Cersei scene. He did not rape her in the book, she lightly tried to tell him know in case they were caught but she quickly relented, she even led up to it with some surprising tenderness. From the book, since I have it right here, Page 851 of Storm of Swords:dwarfyou.home." This, clearly, is not the same as what we saw on the show. Yes, he was forceful in the book, but nothing like that. It was passion she was receptive to, just worried about getting caught, nothing more. I'm not saying Jaime's a great man, and he's certainly done some fucked up stuff, like the whole Bran toss and incest thing, but violently raping Cersei? What the shit. You can't even pretend that the book and the show are the same thing with the same personalities for that scene. Hell, from the man himself: http://defamer.gawker.com/george-r-r-martin-distances-himself-from-game-of-thron-1565857941"The "butterfly effect" is presumably in reference to the idea that one small change in the story necessitates later changes, reverberating for the entirety of the television show. Martin is sympathetic to the creative plight of Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, who are tasked with translating sprawling fantasy novels into popcorn television, but he essentially lets them live or die on their own decision with regard to this episode's rape scene, making it clear that he was does not recall being consulted (as he sometimes is) on the alteration.His final statement, in which he apologizes for a decision that he did not make, is admirable even. The scene as he wrote it—a brother and sister having public reunion sex beneath the corpse of their son—is disturbing, and would have been sufficiently so on the show. But the so-called "wrong reasons" fall in the lap of Benioff and Weiss, who—in a decision that has yet to be explained—transformed that scene into a rape.Martin has said his piece, and at some point Benioff and Weiss will have to as well."

Spoilers yada yada yada:

Ok this is going to get into some seriously morally grey discussion points, but if Cersei says "no" to his sexual advances (especially if you're like me, and you think she genuinely didn't want to have sex next to the corpse of her dead child, and was just being "tender" as a way to manipulate Jaimie in typical Cersei-fashion to murder his own beloved brother) and he continues anyway, that's pretty rapey. Yes, she eventually reciprocates, but I feel that's fairly irrelevant. He was going to go through with it no matter what (He specifically says he doesn't even hear here requests to stop, he's so horny). Whether or not Cersei's eventual reciprocation makes it "not a rape," (which is in itself a really grey area), he seems pretty committed to the act. Dude's a rapist, or at least was perfectly content with committing a rape.

Now, as for what GRRM says, I think the most important thing to note is that he doesn't actually condemn the scene. He only says "The circumstances were different, and therefore the scene was different," which is pretty much what I said in my first post. In the books, they're both overcome with emotion after seeing each other, and things happen as they happen. In the show, Jaime's been around KL for awhile now, and he hasn't been having a great time. His Kingsguard thinks he's a joke with only one hand, his father has almost literally disowned him, his fights with Bronn are making him suspect that he may never fight competently again (and therefore in his own eyes, be useless), and Cersei, the one person he usually relies on to understand and comfort him, has been exceedingly cold and distant (and has even implied that things may never go back to the way they were). Add on to that the fact that his King/nephew/son is now dead due to what he most likely considers to be his own failings as a Kingsguard, and now Cersei, after being so cold to him, now expects him to murder his own brother (the only person who's even been remotely friendly to him after arriving at the capitol barring Brienne) just because she's being irrational and angry. And it all boils over in anger and disgust, for his own situation, for his failings, for Cersei ("You truly are hateful. Why have the Gods made me love a hateful woman?"), which in turn leads to sexual violence (because even if he's disgusted with Cersei at that moment, she's still the only object of his lust).

Again, this isn't to say the scene couldn't have been better, or could've been changed to make Jaime less despicable. In fact, I think if they had gone with the original emotional tone that was in the book, it would've been more compelling. That being said, the more I think about it the more I see their reasoning, and the more I think it makes sense in the context of the story. I'm actually interested to see where they'll take the Cersei/Jaime relationship from here, as I feel its spinning off in a new but not wholly unbelievable direction.

Dervish said
Now onto Littlefinger. Moar spoilers below.The thing is, you never seem him actually demonstrate any genuine feelings towards Cat.In Game of Thrones, when Cat reaches the capital, he lies to her outright and says that the blade that the assassin used was his that he lost to Tyrion, knowing that she would pursue him and try to hold him accountable for the attempted murder of her son. Her capturing Tyrion and putting him on trial is what started the rift between the Lannisters and the Starks and led to Jaime attacking Ned into the street, which kind of snowballed into the war. Littlefinger knew it was Joffery who hired the assassin, and if he genuinely cared for Cat's feelings, he likely wouldn't have ended up putting her in harm's way. The Lannisters have a reputation for being through in destroying Houses that become their enemies. You don't need to look any further than the Targaryens and the Reynes to see that. After the Red Wedding, Littlefinger isn't moved at all at the death of Catelyn, and it's likely he knew it was going to happen. Even before The RW, he was trying to get Sansa to consider leaving the capital with him to go to the Eyrie. After the Purple Wedding, Ser Dontos delivered Sansa to Littlefinger, and what's going to happen is he's going to make her pose as his illegitimate daughter until the time is right to reveal who she actually is. Since he knows Lysa Arryn is madly in love with him (she even poisoned Jon Arryn for Littlefinger, which as you recall, set off this entire mess), it wasn't hard to get her to agree to marry him. Almost immediately, he fakes affection for Sansa and makes sure he's caught by Lysa's bard kissing Sansa, where the bard rats him out to Lysa, who obviously demands answers and she's never been the most rational person. She threatens to throw Sansa out the Moon Door, which Littlefinger prevents happening and instead murders Lysa that way, telling her something along the lines of "I only ever loved Catelyn." Which I'm pretty sure is a bold-faced lie to be an evil shit since that horrible revelation would be the last thing she ever knew before she died, and it's also likely for Sansa's benefit. He pins the murder on the bard and Sansa remains his only witness, and this is three people Sansa's witnessed Littlefinger kill since she left the capital. She's smart enough NOT to piss him off.So now Littlefinger is the Lord of the Vale with what is believed to be the eldest surviving Stark whom I think he likely intends to marry to give him legitimacy and claim over both the Vale and the North. This would make him one of the most powerful men in status in Westeros. Sansa's nothing more than a tool for him, a very well conditioned tool who spent years being tortured into silent submission by Joffery. It might be one of the few things that's keeping her alive.Also, he's the one who has kept Jeyne Pool in one of his brothels, whom he turns over to the Lannisters to present to the Boltons as Arya Stark to further cement their claim to the North. Not exactly respecting the memory or blood of the woman he claimed to love. Tyrion said it best, he seemed to be the only person who legitimately saw Littlefinger for who he was. "The only person Littlefinger loves is Littlefinger." I can't find exactly where the quote came from, but it's pretty much exactly what he said. Damned if he wasn't right.

You misunderstand me: I don't believe LF has any sort of care for Cat's wellbeing or emotions. You're quite right: "The only person Littlefinger loves is Littlefinger." He doesn't see Cat as a love interest, he sees her as a prize: just another goal on his climb up the ladder to power, just as much in his mind as Harrenhall or the Vale. He has quite literally fought over her before against Brandon, despite possibly knowing she did not reciprocate his feelings. And he did truly have feelings for her (at the very least sexual feelings, though I would assume after their childhood together there were heavy emotional ties as well), as Lysa recounts the night she had sex with him while he was drunk, and he called out Cat's name (of note, it appears LF does not actually recall the specifics of this drunken sexual encounter, and actually believes that it was Cat he was making love to, as he refers to the incident in that way later. This just furthers his motivations to try to win Cat from Brandon, as he believes she loves him, when in fact it was Lysa that holds that "honor").

By the time the books start, LF has changed, but his primary motivations haven't. Brandon had died, Ned has taken his place; doesn't matter. The woman he thought loved him has apparently scorned him for someone stronger, from a better family. The incident sticks with him, motivates him. He's been degraded becasue he's not from a strong family, as well as embarrassed (and if there's anything LF values, it's his pride). So he's motivated to gain more and more power. He knows he can't win through direct fighting, he learned that lesson with Brandon. So he uses his wits, builds a name for himself, works his way higher and higher into the upper echelons of Westeros. And now he's finally putting all of his grand schemes into action, starting(?) with the actual initiation of the GoT conflict by poisoning Jon Arryn and then telling the Starks that the Lannisters did it. This is actually much more important in instigating Lannister v. Stark drama than his business with the dagger, that was just icing on the cake. Why do all this? Because he knows Cat is a "lost cause" and because he has grand plans to use the resulting chaos to further his agendas (which is working quite splendidly, seeing as he is now lord of the Riverlands and *sort-of* the Vale. And hey, he got Sansa on the side, who is said to look a hell of a lot like a young version of her mother. Whether that little "win" was planned or was simply fortuitous is another whole debate.

I think it's kind of a stretch to say that LF planned for Lysa to see him kissing Sansa, which would then...do what? If he wants to kill Lysa (and I think he probably did either way), he could've (and would've) found a much simpler and effective way to do so. He also would have done it a lot later, after he'd already established himself in the Vale. Keep in mind that after Lysa's death, he has a pretty difficult time convincing the lords of the Vale to keep faith with him considering they all view him as a newly-arrived stranger, who might have usurped the weirwood throne (which he did, so they got that one right). For that kiss with Sansa to be planned would make almost no sense; in fact, it nearly ruins his entire plans! If literally anyone else had seen the kiss, he would've been fucked. If he hadn't arrived in time to save Sansa from Lysa, he would've lost his biggest power piece, and he would've been fucked. If he hadn't been able to silence the singer that witnessed the whole thing, he would've been fucked. He's good at thinking on his feet, and he managed to salvage the situation (though it did cause him difficulties later), knowing that he had to eliminate the now-hysterical Lysa who was now a threat to Sansa's safety.

There's no reason to assume that his "only Cat" line is anything but the truth. What does he gain by lying? Just "because he's evil" isn't good enough, and I feel it seriously cheapens the character and his motivations. Lysa is a constant reminder of his childhood, and his own failures. She adores him, but she's just a worse version of CAt to him, and she annoys him incessantly. There's no way we would have been given so much information about his childhood and his relationships with Lysa, Cat and the Starks just for it to add up to "well he just gets his kicks from manipulating people." Those interactions form the motivations of what I feel is one of the most interesting characters in the series, and to sum them all up as inconsequential to who he is today and the actions he's taking is, I feel, somewhat misguided.

For the most part, agreed, I understand that there's differences between the book timeline and the show, but still, I just feel like it's an uncharacteristically large departure for both characters.

Either way, what's done is done, I just found it to be a very jarring choice, is all.

Anyways! Off to work on poast.

That's showbiz for you. When have they ever left the story alone?

I like the idea of television canon being different from book canon. It's why I like both FMA 2003 and FMA: Brotherhood. Two different stories in the "same" world but different.