[OOC] Fate/ Transcendent Paradigm (A Fate/GO Based RP)

[Rin]

Either way, I don't think Mordred would really care in the first place. ^^;

[VitaVitaAR]

I don't think it amounts to a literal connection in the way the swords potentially are connected, either.

[KoL]

Actually, I think it could even be seen as somewhat of an insult. Given that pride is serious business to almost all Heroic Spirits, having your role in your story (since for them it's not a legend but their very lives) compared to someone else just like this, ad of they were just tales, can be seen as an offense.

Camaraderie between HSs that share similar stories is not unheard of, but even then no one would say: "Hey, lasts be brothers in arms because I your analogous on another legend."

[Beloss]

@Rin Is that a yes or a no? If he notices but does not care that will still affect the story.

@VitaVitaAR I don't see why there would be no literal connection, especially when such relationships between Noble Phantasms are noted and literal. Gram being closely related to Caliburn for example, and Gilgamesh's Merodach being the ancestor of both. Relations between legends tend to be very real in the Fate series, especially when the Servants know magical know about most other legends, starting with those most closely related to their own. Arturia recognizing Cuchulain but not Kojiro for example.

@KoL I agree, I think its more likely for spirits such as Mordred and Sinfjotli to be at odds with one another. I dont think it would be seen as in insult per say, but more as something like confronting your own clone who wants to replace you. Or like a brother who is threatening your inheritance.

[VitaVitaAR]

Mordred is a literal clone of Saber and therefore is female, though draw attention to that and she'll probably cave your face in given her immensely screwed up upbringing. ^^;

As for the whole legends thing, it's... not like that at all? I think that's a far too literal way to interpret this. Similar events happen in history all the time. With swords, it's easy to say they were(possibly deliberately) connected to one another, as some weapons in the Nasuverse are described as prototypes for the later ones.

I don't think it would be noticed unless brought up directly, and even then it's just similar events rather then... I don't even know what you're suggesting.

[Rin]

Yeah, Mordred is a girl who was raised as a boy, which tends to mess you up a lot even before you get into the whole part about her being raised to be a weapon. Naturally, her true gender is a touchy subject. XD

[Beloss]

@VitaVitaAR I dont think you understand. Mordred's specific origins within her legend dont matter. People within the Fate universe think that Mordred and Arturia are both male, their legend is essential similar to how it is in our world (with a few exceptions, Arthur never conquering Italy and various other details being different)

I dont know where you are getting that its not like I describe it. Arturia knows who Diarmuid and Cuchulain are, and they her, even though that should technically be impossible. It is information that the grail has given her directly similar to how she knows modern language and most customs. Sigfreid for example knows that Sigurd exists because they are very closely related legends, basically being different versions of each other. Saber does not know who Sasaki Kojiro is because his legends does not relate to her at all and is in a complexity different cultural sphere.

When you have two legends that are geographically very close, take place at nearly the same time, and have dozens of similaritys and identical themes to eachother its pretty obvious that the two legends are related to and influence one another, just like the swords Gram and Calburn are.

I dont see where you are making the distinction where you are willing to admit that the swords are related prototypes of each other, but the people who's legends are even more similar are not? If Merlin was summoned and Myrddin Wyllt was also summoned they would quickly recognize eachother as being related, even though they are from different legends. Same thing here is what I am suggesting.

[KoL]

@KoL I agree, I think its more likely for spirits such as Mordred and Sinfjotli to be at odds with one another. I dont think it would be seen as in insult per say, but more as something like confronting your own clone who wants to replace you. Or like a brother who is threatening your inheritance.

@Beloss

Oh boy! For his own safety don't mention clones, or any family for that matter, close to Mordred, this is bound to not go well under any circumstances.

---

Now that I think about it, what Mordred would think when watching Railgun S for the first time? I bet the angst would be too strong to look at.

[VitaVitaAR]

... I mean, yes they do? But the characters themselves are female. You were talking about Mordred. She is female here.

And... every Servant knows every other heroic spirit the moment they get to know names/NP names. It's just kind of part of being a heroic spirit? ^^; Saber didn't know Sasaki Kojirou because he's a composite of different people and one of those people was summoned as a Wraith.

And frankly this comes down to the fact that swords can be prototypes of other swords. People(I mean aside from homunculi and stuff in the Nasuverse) cannot be prototypes of one another.

It'd be a recognition of undergoing similar events, not "oh my god we're the same people as one another at different times".

[KoL]

Arturia knows who Diarmuid and Cuchulain are, and they her, even though that should technically be impossible. It is information that the grail has given her directly similar to how she knows modern language and most customs.

@Beloss

And here was I being a fool all this time and thinking that it was because King Arthur was a literate person (given that he was a noble) that had a Celtic Druid older than dirt as teacher and thereby was bound to know, y'kow? Legends from the very archipelago she was born in...

Because it's not like Ireland is so very far from Corwall and the rest of the Brittish islands.

Well, such is life. You always learn new things everyday.

[Beloss]

@KoL yeah it probably wont go very well, which is why I am interested in this. The meeting between the two could be very interesting I think, especially with their shared obsession and hatred of their own family's.

@VitaVitaAR Yes the the world thinks that Mordred is a man no? The same way they think that Arthuria is a man.

Right, but Saber was able to easily pick out Diarmuid and was able to slowly recognize Lancelot even under layers of deceptive magics. For a Servant who has no relation to her it would almost certainly be a slower process.

For people not being prototypes of each other you are making that rule up out of nothing. Sigurd is a prototype of Siegfried, this we know for sure, I don't see what evidence you have for saying that the countless other legends that influenced neighboring legends dont also share connections to some degree.

I never said that they would think they were the same people. You just agreed with me there on your last line. I was never talking about reincarnation, which does not exist for Servants in the first place. Heroic Spirits are actually preserved as unique existences within throne of heroes, they are isolated from the cycle of reincarnation that everyone else goes through. That they would recognize their lives contained identical mythical themes would be the relationship I am taking about.

[Beloss]

@KoL

And here was I being a fool all this time and thinking that it was because King Arthur was a literate person (given that he was a noble) that had a Celtic Druid older than dirt as teacher and thereby was bound to know, y'kow? Legends from the very archipelago she was born in...

Because it's not like Ireland is so very far from Corwall and the rest of the Brittish islands.

Well, such is life. You always learn new things everyday.

Cuchulain and Diarmuid also recognize Arthur, Diarmuid even saying that he has anticipated facing her. Their legends predate Arthur's by some time, they know of her because of the information that the grail has given them. While its possible that Arthur knew of both of them from life due to Merlins teachings even if she had never learned she would know now, because of the general knowledge that they receive from the grail.

[AtomicNut]

Less doublepost, more ICpost.

[Beloss]

@AtomicNut I'm still waiting for a reply from Atlanta

[KoL]

I'll write a reply in a few by the way, but please take heed of one thing, Arthuria is nothing like the other Heroic Spirits. She gets a lot of privileges from being Typemoon's Golden Egg Goose.

Refer to this:

^{Edit: Oops! Wrong video, now's the right one.}

Literally every Heroic Spirit regardless of time of existence knows Excalibur, thereby they all know Arthuria. You can't really compare her with any of the others.

Fate/Zero made a point of hammering how much of a special cookie Arthuria is and it's within the highest order of canon on the franchise.

As for your explanations, HSs itself can be related to some degree (as certain legends imply this) but if the legends itself don't mention it, it shouldn't work in world. You remember, that those stories are supposed to be real not invented here, despite what literature professor moogles might think IC, it1s just supposed to be a coincidence, except when it comes to weapons, which invariably all come from Gil's treasury.

[VitaVitaAR]

That's something a lot to people seem to get wrong, honestly, going by prior experience.

That heroic spirits are all actually real people in the Nasuverse. For some reason people seem to think they can also be fictional characters(citing Fake Assassin a lot of the time even though he was also a real person in-universe, just not a famous one) sometimes.

[Beloss]

@KoL

HSs itself can be related to some degree (as certain legends imply this) but if the legends itself don't mention it, it shouldn't work in world.

You seem to be inventing this rule. People in general recognize patterns very quickly. I dont see why a Heroic Spirit would not be able to sense such similarity, especially when, as you said certain legends imply it.

If its noted as something that exists for certain legends then a similar trend should be observed in all others when the correct conditions appear. Why would it randomly happen in one case but then not another?

I dont see what being a real vs fictional character has to do with relations between legends. People note such connections in real life all the time, especially between historic figures who grew up under certain circumstances, or were driven by similar causes.

@VitaVitaAR All heroic Spirits so far are implied to have been real people within the Fate world aside from a few notable exceptions. Again I dont see what this has to do with anything I have proposed.

[KoL]

That's something a lot to people seem to get wrong, honestly, going by prior experience.

That heroic spirits are all actually real people in the Nasuverse. For some reason people seem to think they can also be fictional characters(citing Fake Assassin a lot of the time even though he was also a real person in-universe, just not a famous one) sometimes.

@VitaVitaAR

Kinda like that. But on the other hand FGO (Apocrypha as well, with Frankenstein's Monster) is making a disservice by bringing characters that are clearly fictional as HSs.

@KoL<Snipped quote>

You seem to be inventing this rule. People in general recognize patterns very quickly. I dont see why a Heroic Spirit would not be able to sense such similarity, especially when, as you said certain legends imply it.

If its noted as something that exists for certain legends then a similar trend should be observed in all others when the correct conditions appear. Why would it randomly happen in one case but then not another?

I dont see what being a real vs fictional character has to do with relations between legends. People note such connections in real life all the time, especially between historic figures who grew up under certain circumstances, or were driven by similar causes.

@VitaVitaAR All heroic Spirits so far are implied to have been real people within the Fate world aside from a few notable exceptions. Again I dont see what this has to do with anything I have proposed.

@Beloss

I meant in as with the Count of Saint Germain, who was said to be Nicholas Flamel (or his wife), among various other people. This open a precedent on Typemoon lore for him to be another individual, not just similarities in legends.

[Raineh Daze]

So, should I be planning to stab Diarmuid or not?

[FujiwaraPhoenix]

@Raineh Daze: Him and EMIYA, yes.

Also, this conversation? Seriously getting to the realm of 'shouldn't need to be discussed anymore' right now.
I'm leaning in favor of KoL and Vita here, since right now the logic that's being provided by the other side does not line up in-universe with Nasuverse lore.