How can we help improve RPGuild? Community suggestions and discussion.

[Ruby]

Gotta say, I think the Mods do a great job. Any time I've had an issue, it hasn't taken long to get a response. Mahz does the best he can with what he can, I've never doubted that. I've never seen a reason to doubt that, either. Yeah he's been gone a while but the house hasn't burned down, either, and he works hard to get things moving when things go down.

Those of us who've been around a while know what happens when the Mods get very visible and very proactive--it's usually not a good thing. Some people talk about not liking how the Mods seem absent, disconnected. I would've PAID for this problem earlier in the Guild's history, when it felt like the people who were made Mods weren't really RPers first, but chatters in Spam. When it felt like the "little guy RPer" got left behind. It hasn't felt like that at all since the Guild went back up after it's fall.

I never had a clique. I just RPed. And RPed. And, somehow, someway, I became a Mod for a short amount of time. Then I became a chat moderator for a short amount of time. Now I'm just a RPer again. Seems the more time you spend outside of RP sub-forums, the bigger the "cliques" issue is for you.

Also, from personal experience, some of the Mods are more active than you think. Some of them like it that way.

I know who Rilla is. He's an awesome dad and a great writer, and he's really funny. I didn't always know him. I had to go out of my way to find out who he was, but it was worth it. Ditto Hank.

I'm glad Arena is the Arena, I'm glad NRP have their own sub-forum, I'm glad Tabletop has a spot just for them now, too. You can always debate a re-organization of the Guild, but this doesn't constitute a "problem" for the Guild in my mind. Just differences of opinion. As it is, I think Mahz is right: the way the Guild is set up is something that marks it unique.

Increased community involvement projects could do a lot of good on a few of the issues raised. I'd encourage this. Heck, depending on what it is, I might even offer help/advise.

[Dolerman]

This is all personal opinion, I have NOT been elected by NRP to represent them

@Isotope

...

Do you think that it could be a case of correct tagging? Like I'm just guessing but I'm sure there are Free, Casual and Advanced level players who Nation RP, so maybe this heavy history/over prepared problem is a matter of just different levels of playing styles not meshing well? Are there options for more simplified Nation RPs?

[Rilla]

I don't want to see the arena merged, at all. There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong with the current layout - at all.

Arena sections are a staple on most, if not all, roleplaying sites. If you think this one is dead, please never go to Gateway. While it may not be the most active forum on Guild, and it has never been, it has its place. While most fights are 1x1, our rules are different from a normal RP, either group or 1x1.

For Guild's current layout, it was perfectly suited and fine where it is. Such changes won't effect activity, a stated somewhere back before, and luckily has admittedly little chance of happening. Mahz actually gives us pretty free reign in there, and let's us try out our ideas - hence the leaderboard he implemented on our suggestion.

My take on it, is leave it alone. We dint bother people, don't need to share a space, and in general, handle things in a way that works for us.

[Sylph]

.

[Dolerman]

Gotta say, I think the Mods do a great job. Any time I've had an issue, it hasn't taken long to get a response. Mahz does the best he can with what he can, I've never doubted that. I've never seen a reason to doubt that, either. Yeah he's been gone a while but the house hasn't burned down, either, and he works hard to get things moving when things go down.

Those of us who've been around a while know what happens when the Mods get very visible and very proactive--it's usually not a good thing. Some people talk about not liking how the Mods seem absent, disconnected. I would've PAID for this problem earlier in the Guild's history, when it felt like the people who were made Mods weren't really RPers first, but chatters in Spam. When it felt like the "little guy RPer" got left behind. It hasn't felt like that at all since the Guild went back up after it's fall.

I never had a clique. I just RPed. And RPed. And, somehow, someway, I became a Mod for a short amount of time. Then I became a chat moderator for a short amount of time. Now I'm just a RPer again. Seems the more time you spend outside of RP sub-forums, the bigger the "cliques" issue is for you.

Also, from personal experience, some of the Mods are more active than you think. Some of them like it that way.

I know who Rilla is. He's an awesome dad and a great writer, and he's really funny. I didn't always know him. I had to go out of my way to find out who he was, but it was worth it. Ditto Hank.

I'm glad Arena is the Arena, I'm glad NRP have their own sub-forum, I'm glad Tabletop has a spot just for them now, too. You can always debate a re-organization of the Guild, but this doesn't constitute a "problem" for the Guild in my mind. Just differences of opinion. As it is, I think Mahz is right: the way the Guild is set up is something that marks it unique.

Increased community involvement projects could do a lot of good on a few of the issues raised. I'd encourage this. Heck, depending on what it is, I might even offer help/advice.

@Ruby

This, This, This.

I could not have put it better myself, this basically sums up my views about everything regarding the guild except Hank.

[TheDuncanMorgan]

I was linked here by @Dynamo Frokane due to me being the GM of 'Formaroth: Battle for the throne'. A Fantasy medieval RP with 'Nation' elements to it. From what I gather apparently there are a lot of people who believe that a good way to improve the guild is to either merge or do away with Nation, Tabletop and Arena. I thought I would give my own opinion on this.

On the subject of nations I think it may be a good idea to merge it in with something else. While my RP started out with strong nation leanings, as the RP continued (or rather as soon as it started) it quickly became more focused on characters and there own personal motives rather than focused on nations/kingdoms themselves. At the same time I think it is a useful tag to keep in some fashion as it give a good indication about what certain RP's are about. In the end however I think people are more interested in characters with nations being a good backdrop (just to make clear, getting rid of nations won't delete any existing nations RPs? I would be very upset if I were to loose my RP after spending two years on it).

I am afraid I am in no position to talk about Tabletop or Arena.

[Kratesis]

@Buddha This is probably going to make everyone mad again but the Guild is intellectually circling around an outside context problem. The universe is expanding faster than it should and nobody knows what dark matter/energy is, basically. Even if you did know you couldn't solve the problem. It's too big and too alien.

Ultimately I wouldn't do anything. From my point of view the Guild provides what I need, which is a system in which to PM my friends and a steady supply of 40k group roleplays. The Guild is everything I need it to be. Other sites provide the other types of RP I want (such as romantic 1x1 and shared worlds). I enjoy talking with you guys a bit about the Guild but addressing the problems in a meaningful way is a massive undertaking and I don't think the Guild is in danger of shrinking to the point where I can't find the occasional 40k RP. So I have no incentive to act, and thus won't.

(I suppose I'm an RPG libertarian ;-P gasps of shock and horror from the crowd)

In order to appease the mob I will copy-paste something I said in PM that is like 10% of what the problem is. Some sections have been removed for the privacy of the person I was PMing because I didn't talk to them about this first.

Hey ********** :-) I would be happy to talk with you about the group RPGs.
That said this is a really, really broad subject so I hope you will forgive me if I gloss over certain things, don't try to tackle everything at once and occasionally take a really long time to reply.

To me the question is:
A: What causes RPGers to become bored with an RPG.
B: What is the frequency with which these 'boredom inducing events' occur?
C: What is it that other sites do that reduces the rate at which group RPGs fail?
1: Do they eliminate certain elements that bore RPGers?
2: Do they reduces the frequency of 'boredom inducing events'?
3: Do they provide incentives to entice RPGers to stick with an RPG through the boring time?
4: Do they do something that reduces the effort required to post when you just aren't interested?

My opinion is that all of the above contributes significantly to the Guild's rate of RPG failure. The lengthy introductions are an example of 'boring stuff' that needs to be reduced but the issue is much bigger than that.

In my opinion most Guild group roleplays are MVPs. Minimum Viable Products. They have only what they need to be successful in the beginning. That sounds pretty insulting to the Guild's many hard working DMs which I regret; I like a lot of the Guild's DMs and have a great one right now in a 40k RPG. But it is true. The minimum product here is an interest check, an IC/OOC thread, character sheets and a description of what the RP is going to be about in the interest check and OOC thread as well as a OP by the DM.

And honestly that can be a lot of work. So it doesn't sound fair to accuse DM's of doing the least possible work. But it is true. The structure of roleplays here on the Guild places nearly all of the work onto the shoulders of a DM. The players contribute characters and posts and the DM must do everything else. So the DM does the minimum work required to make the RPG happen, simply because it is so much work and they need to do almost all of it. It is like a startup with just one guy. Whatever you make has to be pretty small.

What are the things that a DM would need to provide in order to make the ultimate group RPG?

Persistence: This one is a big one. On the Guild when you join an RPG you know that your work in that RPG won't have any repercussions outside of that RPG. Compare this to sites with a 'shared world' where characters travel through RPGs instead of ending with the RPG. By sticking with a boring RPG until the end you can go into the next RPG with the events of the last RPG added to your backstory.

This is strongly related to the DM's having to carry a massive workload just to launch an RP. The world a DM creates rarely persists. Canon rarely persists. Thus every time a DM creates something they have to do all the work from scratch. If there was more canon persistence than a DM wouldn't need to do so much work every time.

Imagine if you had a world that had been running for several years. Ten thousand posts or so. Over that time certain things within the shared world would acquire an importance all of their own. A city might become a valuable to players. A landmark or technology might acquire importance. Then, rather than creating a whole new world all at once and trying to motivate players to enter this world and care about the stakes you could take players that already knew the world and give them something they already cared about as the 'stakes' in the RPG. Protect X city (that they had RPed in and already cared about) from being destroyed. Or whatever.

And persistence builds on persistence. Their actions influence other players who didn't even participate in the RP and create further opportunities.

Progression: This is tied to persistence. By having a character that travels through multiple RPGs you can lay claim to character growth that extends across years instead of weeks or months. A character can grow from no one into a legendary figure or tell a story that the writer finds moving through persistence; providing motivation to persist.

Intrinsic Rewards: What sort of intrinsic rewards do you receive from sticking through a RPG that is in a boring patch? The satisfaction of completing the RPG I suppose and perhaps the acclimation of your peers. But clearly that isn't as so many RPGs fail. In a situation where a character's canon isn't isolated to a single RPG a character can become famous across an entire board or roleplaying community. I haven't heard a single character named by name in OOC chat in my time here on the Guild. Once you cross the boundary of that specific RPG's IC/OOC threads that universe ends. When you finish an RP on the Guild it is as if it never happened. Like it never existed. I truly cannot see how that is suppose to be motivating!

Extrinsic Rewards: Some sites have a stat, gear and skills system where a character gains power, wealth and ability as time goes on. Usually this is tied to number of IC posts and/or judges which assign a score based on their opinion of a posts quality. Honestly, I don't really like this method. That said I can certainly see how it works and why a fair number of sites use it. It provides an additional reward for posting even when things get boring. It isn't for me but it clearly works for a fair number of people.

Obviously this is leading to the conclusion that shared worlds produce more successful group RPGs because there are more rewards for posting. That certainly meshes with my personal experience as well. Sites like the Guild have hundreds, if not thousands of group RPGs that die every single year. Meanwhile on the site I come from (ComicVine) I could make a group RPG that recieved a hundred or more posts in a couple of weeks and I could do it consistently. That isn't because I am an amazing DM or anything but because the shared world gave me so many tools to entice players and did so much of the heavy lifting for me that it was like playing Call of Duty on easy mode where on the Guild DM's are playing Dark Souls on the highest difficulty.

Alright. This is like a tenth of what I think the problem is but I'm out of typing gas lol. I hope it gave you what you were looking for :-)

Anyway this is just the basics of the shared world stuff. In my experience shared worlds have a lot more completed RPs and people don't quit as much. Because group RPs seem to be the majority of the site it seems logical to me that increasing the viability of the largest portion of the site would bring the largest gains.

Will this happen? Heck no lol. Like I said above, it is an outside context problem. The amount of evidence I would have to provide to convince the community this would work is immense. The amount of work that would need to be done to create a couple of successful shared worlds would be likewise massive. The problems that would then arise, and thus have to be solved, would be significant.

Anyway. The Guild might be going through a slow period but it's good enough. Changing group RPs is such a huge endeavor I wouldn't even attempt it. I get what I need out of group.

[Dolerman]

Maybe there needs to be a pinned guide on a basics of NRP? Somewhere for a beginner to start and not get scared off.

@Sylph

Maybe this should be stickied?

I think @ClocktowerEchos did a damn fine job.

[Dolerman]

I suppose I'm an RPG libertarian ;-P

@Kratesis

And here I thought we might have been friends.....

[Kratesis]

<Snipped quote by Kratesis>

And here I thought we might have been friends.....

@Dynamo Frokane

Mortal enemies is just as good as long as we're both super cool and funny ;-P

[ClocktowerEchos]

<Snipped quote by Kratesis>

And here I thought we might have been friends.....

@Dynamo Frokane

Dude, you seriously still on that?
You can have friends who have different political leanings than you.
At the very least be nice to them.
Kindness has no political party.

[mickilennial]

Mortal enemies is just as good as long as we're both super cool and funny ;-P

@Kratesis

Unfortunately for Dynamo, this is not the case.

[Dion]

@ Ruby

Gotta say, I think the Mods do a great job. Any time I've had an issue, it hasn't taken long to get a response. Mahz does the best he can with what he can, I've never doubted that. I've never seen a reason to doubt that, either. Yeah he's been gone a while but the house hasn't burned down, either, and he works hard to get things moving when things go down.

@Ruby

I'll refrain on adding onto the reason why I think you do get a reply and others don't and simply state I'm glad it has worked for you. From reading through the thread, you seem to be one of the few. Consider yourself lucky.

Those of us who've been around a while know what happens when the Mods get very visible and very proactive--it's usually not a good thing. Some people talk about not liking how the Mods seem absent, disconnected. I would've PAID for this problem earlier in the Guild's history, when it felt like the people who were made Mods weren't really RPers first, but chatters in Spam. When it felt like the "little guy RPer" got left behind. It hasn't felt like that at all since the Guild went back up after it's fall.

@Ruby

I've definitely been around for a long time and have been since pre guildfall. I only knew moderators back then as people that did actually do stuff. Regardless of who they were, I was too busy RPing and trying to improve myself as a roleplayer to take note of who they were. Nor did I ever concern myself with it because I wasn't interested in the community, I just wanted to post my posts and go.

And I guess you'll have to forgive me for saying that the current moderators do not seem like roleplayers first, nor chatters first, they seem like 'sit on discord and do nothing all day' first. Which I know isn't their full job. But it seems like it. Which is what I've been saying a few times in this entire thread. It seems like nothing is happening. Community engagement does not come from the moderators, it comes from within the community through projects like the discord by @Cynder which you were a part of.

Speaking from a moderators perspective, sure, you might've paid to have this problem back then.

But I am not speaking from a moderators perspective, and I for one am not happy about their seeming absence in light of our growing sense of lawlessness on this forum.

So once again. I am glad things have worked for you. I am glad you are happy with it. Not much else to add to that.

I never had a clique. I just RPed. And RPed. And, somehow, someway, I became a Mod for a short amount of time. Then I became a chat moderator for a short amount of time. Now I'm just a RPer again. Seems the more time you spend outside of RP sub-forums, the bigger the "cliques" issue is for you.

@Ruby

Guess I'm glad I mostly RP, my clique problems just vanished.

Also, from personal experience, some of the Mods are more active than you think. Some of them like it that way.

@Ruby

Yes, I know. It seems like they aren't.

I'm glad Arena is the Arena, I'm glad NRP have their own sub-forum, I'm glad Tabletop has a spot just for them now, too. You can always debate a re-organization of the Guild, but this doesn't constitute a "problem" for the Guild in my mind. Just differences of opinion. As it is, I think Mahz is right: the way the Guild is set up is something that marks it unique.

@Ruby

What are your suggestions on re-energizing these forums, then? Or are you of the opinion that they are very active and alive?

Increased community involvement projects could do a lot of good on a few of the issues raised. I'd encourage this. Heck, depending on what it is, I might even offer help/advise.

@Ruby

Most community involvement projects will need help from moderators and preferably Mahz himself.

@ Rilla

I don't want to see the arena merged, at all. There is, in my opinion, nothing inherently wrong with the current layout - at all.

@Rilla

I beg to differ, and I think that a reorganization could not only decrease clutter but also increase traffic to arena roleplay.

Arena sections are a staple on most, if not all, roleplaying sites. If you think this one is dead, please never go to Gateway. While it may not be the most active forum on Guild, and it has never been, it has its place. While most fights are 1x1, our rules are different from a normal RP, either group or 1x1.

@Rilla

I don't really think that 'this roleplay forum has a MORE DEAD section' is doing you any favors here. This thread isn't PURELY about merging arena (and quite frankly I'd like to move away from that discussion soon because I care too little about arena RP to bother discussing it for 2 pages). Arena has its place, but the sandbox is too large for the people in it. It can have it's place as a subforum of another forum just as well, can't it?

For Guild's current layout, it was perfectly suited and fine where it is. Such changes won't effect activity, a stated somewhere back before, and luckily has admittedly little chance of happening. Mahz actually gives us pretty free reign in there, and let's us try out our ideas - hence the leaderboard he implemented on our suggestion.

@Rilla

Yes, the leaderboard that features people that don't do arena RP anymore. Such a nice feature and nobody uses it. I genuinely don't get this argument. The 'current season' on the leaderboard has been 'the season' since the leaderboard was created. It's been used. Barely. If I am to believe the stats a wholesome 16 ranked matches have been played.

My take on it, is leave it alone. We dint bother people, don't need to share a space, and in general, handle things in a way that works for us.

@Rilla

That's a fair take. I'll leave it at this (or you can reply, but I'm not sure if I'll reply because the arena issue is growing too big for this thread which admittedly is funny because it's so dead) and just say that just because you don't bother people doesn't give you an exemption to criticism or suggestions from outside the arena community.

I appreciate that it exists, but I'm not sure if there's a need for it to exist. That's all I'm questioning.

@ Sylph

It does make me a bit uncomfortable if you were like "Well I'm not the only person who feels this way, SYLPH does too!" and name drop me specifically... But I understand the possible necessity of it. And since I already put this out on a public forum so, why not I suppose?

@Sylph

Looking back at the other posts in this thread I think it's been pretty unanimous bar maybe one or two that the current way moderators are working isn't really working out for us.

I do appreciate that I'm not the only one who feels this way and maybe that's a starting point for a conversation.

One of the key problems is that I don't have an answer to make the mod inactivity/passiveness (whether it be intended or not, I can't help perceiving it that way), and I doubt anyone else does either. It's a really murky line and it must be really difficult to please the community. So if someone asks me "Well what do you specifically suppose we do about it" I don't really know.

Sylph

That is fair, and I can understand that sentiment.

@ TheDuncanMorgan

I was linked here by @Dynamo Frokane due to me being the GM of 'Formaroth: Battle for the throne'. A Fantasy medieval RP with 'Nation' elements to it. From what I gather apparently there are a lot of people who believe that a good way to improve the guild is to either merge or do away with Nation, Tabletop and Arena. I thought I would give my own opinion on this.

On the subject of nations I think it may be a good idea to merge it in with something else. While my RP started out with strong nation leanings, as the RP continued (or rather as soon as it started) it quickly became more focused on characters and there own personal motives rather than focused on nations/kingdoms themselves. At the same time I think it is a useful tag to keep in some fashion as it give a good indication about what certain RP's are about. In the end however I think people are more interested in characters with nations being a good backdrop (just to make clear, getting rid of nations won't delete any existing nations RPs? I would be very upset if I were to loose my RP after spending two years on it).

I am afraid I am in no position to talk about Tabletop or Arena.

@TheDuncanMorgan

I feel like that's a good way to put it. NRP, to me, is no different from an advanced RP. You're just writing as a nation primarily with sometimes a character. I don't see that as enough of a distinction and frankly more often than not I've seen the lines blur. The nation tag is definitely a useful one to denote the focus on large scale politics or something of the like.

I can't really tell you if it'd get rid of existing RP's. I doubt it.

I also doubt this would ever happen. And frankly I'm a little surprised people got so enthused by a suggestion on shuffling the roleplay sections. But it is what it is. Your input is valuable, and I'd invite you to read the rest/read the opening post and offer your ideas on other areas too if you are inclined to deliberate with us.

[Dion]

@Dynamo Frokane@Kratesis@Inkarnate@ClocktowerEchos

Gonna ask y'all to move this brewing shitstorm into another thread because I will not have my thread locked by a moderator for reasons I had nothing to do with. You can deliberate and discuss your rivalries, political affiliations and analogies elsewhere.

[Kratesis]

@Buddha No shit of any type here. I'm just joking around in genuine good humor.

[Dion]

@Kratesis I don't know you personally but I know the other three personally. Rest assured it's shit brewing. Excuse me for telling you to basically GTFO but again, I feel like we're reaching something with this thread, or at the very least I feel like the moderators are acknowledging our position in terms of other issues. So I'd like to keep that going. See what we can reach. I don't want this to turn into a thread devoted to, idk, making jokes with your buddies (even though I love that stuff too).

I'd reply to your actual input but at the moment it's 3 am (screw this thread right?) and I don't feel like I could give you a proper response to what seems to be well thought out.

[Dolerman]

@Kratesis@ClocktowerEchos@Inkarnate
I'm cool with people of every political position......

Except Libertarians

Either way I think our job here is done, and our sub forums wont be going anywhere for now at least, but I'll be watching the thread.

[Dion]

And on that note I'd like to drop the arena debate since it'll go nowhere.

Let's focus on other issues. Like the things listed in the first page, maybe.

[Kratesis]

@Buddha No problem and I get it :-)

No worries. Honestly you don't really need to reply to me. I don't think there is any chance any of this could happen. I'm tempted to write another long post on the diffusion of innovation but I'll just let it be.

[Drifting Pollen]

Speaking as someone who only even joined this site because it had a highly visible arena section, I'd say it shouldn't be merged.

Buddha seems to have been very selective with his screenshots, as if you look at the Arena right now there are four threads active within the past day alone- one of which has no less than seventeen players signed up to battle, with more on the way. Yes, the arena has had periods of inactivity, but when it pulls people in it really pulls them in.

What would the benefits be from making a merge? Uh... better "organization?" I mean, if you mostly play in free/casual/advanced, those categories are already neatly arranged atop the others. If you don't care about arena, so what- all it's doing is making you scroll down a little more to get to the "off topic" sections. Is that really such a big deal?

What would the harm be, then? Easy answer: reduced visibility. The arena is right up there as a category, and clear to see when looking at the site's main page- which, to someone clicking through a bunch of sites looking for somewhere to fight, can be a major factor in attracting them here particularly. I personally only came here for the arena, but since then I've branched out and posted in a few other roleplays outside of it- and I very much doubt I'm the only one. There is a very real demographic of people out there who want to do combat-style RP, and that same demographic can also contribute to story-driven RP.

So the solution here? First things first, I think leaving the Arena in it's current position doesn't hurt anyone and can benefit the site in some ways. However, I agree there is a problem. The problem is moderation.

The current arena moderators (Rilla and Skallagrim, from what I know) are barely active at all. I think it would definitely help to find new moderators to both boot up the ranking system again and encourage activity by starting tournaments and events. In general RP it's pretty easy to start something on your own and keep it going for a while, since generally multiple people are involved, but Arena fights are more precarious- in a one-versus-one you need both people participating, and participation itself can be quite stressful, given the often argumentative nature of the writing. The solutions to this:

- Get tournaments/the ranking system started. Fights can end prematurely, but if you put a larger framework in place then a couple participants dropping out won't necessarily stop the event from going on. See the current tournament: with 17 characters we'll see several fight threads in the first round alone, and that's even if we lose a few people beforehand. Plus, events and rankings can give people the motivation they need to keep a fight going.

- Experiment with group battles. I've been on other sites where battle have reached incredible proportions- 3v3s, 4v4s, a free-for-all with a dozen participants, and even a massive event where over thirty characters teamed up to fight a titanic boss. While the often disorderly nature of these battles makes them difficult to turn into competitive tournaments, they can be great fun, and can also survive one or two people leaving the thread. In short, worth trying out.

Essentially, I argue that the arena does contribute to the site as a whole, and having it in a prominent position can help draw in people looking for the specific type of roleplay it offers. While I agree there has been some stagnation there, I feel this can be remedied by replacing the inactive moderators and working on setting up more tournaments/events involving greater numbers of players.