[OOC] CLOSED - Ultimate One Universe: Season One

[mickilennial]

MJ is a one-dimensional diva in most of the Spider-Gwen comics. How can she be interesting at all?

@Dedonus

I enjoy the “alternative goil doing alternative things” approach, I guess?

[mickilennial]

I don't even understand this post. There are a great many criticisms that could be leveled against MJ -- and I'd agree with a fair few of them -- but "bland" isn't one of them. Gwen has the monopoly on that front. At least MJ, if nothing else, could be reduced to a label: party girl. What's Gwen's label? "Spider-Man's (dead) girlfriend"?

@Eddie Brock

I never said Gwen was particularly interesting by comparison (barring alternate reality versions we occasionally see).

[Byrd Man]

<Snipped quote by NinaDivine>

Eh they covered a lot of it in Spider-Man TAS, Unlimited and Spectacular.

@Lord Wraith

Not the same. Now please, leave. I will only ask nicely once.

[NinaDivine]

<Snipped quote by NinaDivine>

Eh they covered a lot of it in Spider-Man TAS, Unlimited and Spectacular.

@Lord Wraith

[mickilennial]

I think I triggered every Spider-Man writer who I respect in these games barring Andy [because he's not around to be mad at me]. Haha.

[Byrd Man]

I think I triggered every Spider-Man writer who I respect in these games barring Andy [because he's not around to be mad at me]. Haha.

@Inkarnate

I played Spider-Man like, ten years ago. But then again, you did say respect.

[mickilennial]

I played Spider-Man like, ten years ago. But then again, you did say respect.

@Byrd Man

Now I’m wondering what you are getting at, Byrd.

[Eddie Brock]

Though, alright, let me put on my best suit, slick back my hair, and give it my best Keanu Reeves impersonation:

Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson come from two different eras of storytelling. Gwen is a hero's girlfriend in the very Silver Age style; she's no worse an offender of the "bland, personality-less beauty designed to be put in mortal peril" trope than, say, (classic) Iris West. Hell, until ol' Spidey and Marvel came along, even the heroes hardly had character traits beyond "always does the right thing" and "reminds kids to eat their vegetables." So to completely compare the two without considering their relative context is a bit misleading.

Still, as Gerry Conway is quick to point out, no one cared about Gwen Stacy until after he killed her. That's when the cult of personality around the character really began.

[Dedonus]

<Snipped quote by Dedonus>
I enjoy the “alternative goil doing alternative things” approach, I guess?

@Inkarnate

That's one of my biggest gripes with Spider-Gwen. Everyone is basically their character in name only. Obviously Gwen needed to be revamped because she had no personality (other than: "That darn Peter Parker! He did not notice me! I'm going to try to date him now!), but everyone is so different that they might as well have made them all original characters instead. It would not have changed the story one bit (with the exceptions of maybe Daredevil and the Punisher).

[Lord Wraith]

<Snipped quote by Lord Wraith>

Not the same. Now please, leave. I will only ask nicely once.

@Byrd Man

Do I really have to go read the story about the angsty teen who has a problem with a white discharge?

[Master Bruce]

Excellent post, @Master Bruce. I like the idea that Nashton is a profiler and agent of CHECKMATE. Really neat spin given we've had him be a police detective, a majority shareholder, and a bunch of other roles in these games before. Can't wait to see how things turn out going forward.

@Inkarnate

Thanks! This version of Edward is one I've put alot of thought into over the years. Basically, it's the version I wanted Nolan to do in the movies, where he comes in as the lead guy looking to bring Batman down after the events of The Dark Knight. I'm hoping I can stick with it for the long run, because I've plotted this dude's entire story arc.

[Byrd Man]

<Snipped quote by Byrd Man>

Do I really have to go read the story about the angsty teen who has a problem with a white discharge?

@Lord Wraith

That seems more your speed.

[Lord Wraith]

<Snipped quote by Lord Wraith>

That seems more your speed.

@Byrd Man

#BarbedByrd

[mickilennial]

That's one of my biggest gripes with Spider-Gwen. Everyone is basically their character in name only. Obviously Gwen needed to be revamped because she had no personality (other than: "That darn Peter Parker! He did not notice me! I'm going to try to date him now!), but everyone is so different that they might as well have made them all original characters instead. It would not have changed the story one bit (with the exceptions of maybe Daredevil and the Punisher).

@Dedonus

I think some ideas work in Spider-Gwen. Others don’t. But they are generally recognizable in some facet. I prefer them trying to spice things up in an obvious Elseworlds concept than play it safe by remaking the 616 and only changing Gwen.

[Retired]

<Snipped quote by Retired>
I call it like I see it, bro. She has never interested me as a character in really anything I've ever read barring maybe some of the later Ultimate issues and Spider-Gwen.

@Inkarnate

I mean, if you don't like the character, that's fine. But you can't throw out the definitive statement that MJ is bland, lacks any character, and has rarely been engaging when that's clearly not the case. I can respect you having your opinion, as ill-informed as it may be, but MJ has always been the more fully-fleshed out, interesting, and engaging character out of the two. And I say this as someone who loves Gwen, what she represents and her retroactive personality. Especially in cartoons like Spectacular Spider-Man. Before they completely bastardized her a decade ago, at least.

<Snipped quote by Inkarnate>

I don't even understand this post. There are a great many criticisms that could be leveled against MJ -- and I'd agree with a fair few of them -- but "bland" isn't one of them. Gwen has the monopoly on that front. At least MJ, if nothing else, could be reduced to a label: party girl. What's Gwen's label? "Spider-Man's (dead) girlfriend"?

@Eddie Brock

And that's at bare minimum, honestly. She had a great character arc of personal growth following Gwen's death in which she evolved past that party girl persona. And much of her 90's career was of a rather strong individual. Meanwhile, again, as much as I love Gwen, she was a rather flimsily defined character prior to her death - largely living in the stereotype of smart, overachieving girlfriend turned incessant damsel in distress. It was the years following her death through flashbacks and retroactive comics that more clearly defined her, and it was other media such as the shows that made her truly interesting and fun. Up until they ruined her in the comics because Marvel's too stupid to realize it's okay to have Peter be a fucking adult.

[mickilennial]

Thanks! This version of Edward is one I've put alot of thought into over the years. Basically, it's the version I wanted Nolan to do in the movies, where he comes in as the lead guy looking to bring Batman down after the events of The Dark Knight. I'm hoping I can stick with it for the long run, because I've plotted this dude's entire story arc.

@Master Bruce

Reminds me of this.

[mickilennial]

I mean, if you don't like the character, that's fine. But you can't throw out the definitive statement that MJ is bland, lacks any character, and has rarely been engaging when that's clearly not the case. I can respect you having your opinion, as ill-informed as it may be, but MJ has always been the more fully-fleshed out, interesting, and engaging character out of the two. And I say this as someone who loves Gwen, what she represents and her retroactive personality. Especially in cartoons like Spectacular Spider-Man. Before they completely bastardized her a decade ago, at least.

And that's at bare minimum, honestly. She had a great character arc of personal growth following Gwen's death in which she evolved past that party girl persona. And much of her 90's career was of a rather strong individual. Meanwhile, again, as much as I love Gwen, she was a rather flimsily defined character prior to her death - largely living in the stereotype of smart, overachieving girlfriend turned incessant damsel in distress. It was the years following her death through flashbacks and retroactive comics that more clearly defined her, and it was other media such as the shows that made her truly interesting and fun. Up until they ruined her in the comics because Marvel's too stupid to realize it's okay to have Peter be a fucking adult.

@Retired

I am not disagreeing on your point that comparing her to Gwen is no contest when it comes to their contemporary depth and so forth. I never particularly said “Gwen was a better character” either.

But yes, I’ve always found her bland as cardboard, even back when I was reading Spider-Man comics every day. I’ll admit my memory is not as great and my opinions may have changed since I was younger if I were to re-read these issues, but it is my genuine point-of-view as it stands. I don’t think its particularly ill-informed as its kind of a subjective perspective. I don’t hate Mary-Jane Watson. I’ve enjoyed reading her on occasion. But the occasion just hasn’t been often enough for it to challenge my thinking that she doesn’t interest me in the slightest.

[Retired]

Even as a stand-alone character I would never describe her as bland.

But I understand that that's your opinion. I will say you should seriously go back and re-read issues with her, especially in the years following Gwen's death, and the mid-to-late 90's.

[mickilennial]

Even as a stand-alone character I would never describe her as bland.

But I understand that that's your opinion. I will say you should seriously go back and re-read issues with her, especially in the years following Gwen's death, and the mid-to-late 90's.

@Retired

PM me the information on the exact run(s) I should be re-reading and I will.

[Bounce]

I feel like you would be little mixed on Grant Morrison because of Damian Wayne.

@Byrd Man

Except, in typical Morrison fashion, Damian isn't even his idea. It was Mike W. Barr's from the one-shot Son of the Demon. The only thing Morrison did was dress it up with a different name and he reaps all the credit... even though every element of Damian's backstory is clearly taken from Barr's work.

Added to that, Damian is a character whose defining attribute basically makes him completely stagnant. There is no character growth with him. He had a lot of potential for growth and development, and to echo what MB said ending Damian's run with the Heretic story was probably the best route for it.

tl;dr Morrison likes to steal from other writers and just re-package shit as though its completely original. Also, I will never forgive him for Cat-Beast.