Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Candelabra
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Back when I started off roleplaying, I always saw the Advanced category as something to aspire to. I looked at the paragraphs upon paragraphs that people wrote and was both amazed and intimidated, so I kept to my lanes (free and casual) for a long time. However, as I dabbled in all of the categories and once had a play where my partner and I were averaging around 2000 words per post, I came to a conclusion: I feel like "Advanced" is a misnomer. It brings with it an air of superiority, as though its reflective of the skill level a writer must be at in order to engage in it. But in reality, I believe that it more than anything else signifies how much content a person is willing to put into a given post, which is radically different from how good a post is.

Tell me if this sounds familiar at all: You start writing with someone and you both figure, hey, I've been at this for awhile and so have you, I'm a good enough writer for Advanced and this plot looks sick, let's give this a shot! So after you both write your introduction posts which are rightfully going to have a lot to establish, you get down to the actual interactions and everything grinds to a halt. Posts become slower. Your partner is writing a lot per post, but there's not much you can actually reply to, so you focus mainly on your character's emotions, how their reactions relate to their backstory, etc etc. That is, until, one of you is burned out by the slow pace of the plot and the project dies before clearing a single page. This is an experience I've had many times and one I know is shared by many people. It's the main reason I started thinking about writing this post.

In my opinion, Advanced isn't really conducive to good writing in the context of roleplay. It's one thing if you're writing a story on your own and can control all of the interactions between characters to be as short or long as you need them to be, but it's something else entirely when you have another person there whose responses you must consider. You can't write their reaction for them, obviously, so you find yourself deliberating upon your character's reactions to every minute detail, inadvertently applying pressure unto your partner to match your count so they don't look like they aren't engaging with you. With this exchange, you miss out on subtlety and the ability for you and your partner to engage as "audience" members, as well as a lot of realism considering that people don't often think too deeply when in the middle of action.

To elaborate, I believe that in a roleplay a person is always splitting the role of a creator and audience member. They must create content in order to interest the other person and are then in a position to enjoy what their partner made for them. However, when writing in the long form, the latter role is downplayed significantly. What I mean by this is that it becomes difficult to write mysteries around your character that can get your partner asking questions and being surprised when your character does an action or develops in such a way that they didn't see coming. Both of you know every in and out of your characters' behavior by necessity, otherwise you would find it impossible to meet the criteria for Advanced. Not only does this often lead to a dull experience for reading and especially writing, you mess with the flow of the plot and roleplay alike because even simple conversations must be written around the idea that you need to either elaborate a lot on the simple sentences your character says or have them speak a lot in an unnatural manner to inflate the amount of content you can put into a post. This will obviously consume a lot of time, make it difficult to find motivation to post more often, and potentially lead your promising RP into an early grave.

Compare this to Free and Casual——in both cases, writers are compelled more to focus on characterization as they need only to progress the story forward and give their partner something to bounce off of. This makes it far easier to maintain a healthily flowing plot and write long term as you aren't constantly mentally prepping yourself for a huge slog in order to reach the more interesting section of a story. This obviously different in cases where each player has multiple characters to account for, but I often find that people focus on making an amalgam of casual posts or dialogue in order to achieve this goal.

Now, I'm not knocking anyone who prefers the Advanced category. What I'm more against is the idea that there is any superiority that comes with simply writing more. If you look at the descriptions for Free and Casual, you notice that they're described as places to go if don't "want to have to worry about standards" or want "some depth," whereas Advanced is where you go for "character development and extensive settings/lore" on account of its more extensive word requirement. This is a really dangerous mindset to instill as it builds a connection between quality and quantity. People should write well regardless of how many words they can cram into a post.

Please let me know what you all think, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by mickilennial
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The crux of this is really what kind of writer are you? Are you a minimalist, a maximalist? A sandbox-oriented fellow or narrow linear-oriented one?

Advanced Roleplaying should focus on developing interesting and complex characters that become part of plot-lines which catch the imagination and inspire the writer behind them to exercise creativity. It is mature, humorous, imaginative, tragic, terrifying, passionate, and rife with descriptive language and characters with real personality and relatable cares. Quality posting is far better than needless novels, yet one should never neglect detail when one feels the need. However, while word and paragraph requirements ought to be unnecessary, single paragraphs cannot contain enough detail to suffice.

I'd like to point out that advanced wasn't started as a section to judge by word count alone--it was a place to hold larger lore codexes (see: extensive settings) and a different style of pace. I've read a few older advanced RPs through waybackmachine and they aren't very different from your high casual markup. At this point in 2019, all the sections serve only as "audiences" rather than length or detail. What kind of audience are you appealing to for your RP? Things like that.

Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BrokenPromise
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Back when I started off roleplaying, I always saw the Advanced category as something to aspire to...


And that's really the problem, isn't it? You saw the advanced section as some special elite force that you wanted to be a part of, and were disappointed when it wasn't. There is no air of superiority. I only ever post in casual and I've had people invite me into their advanced RPs. I have friends whho primarily participate in Free invited to advanced RPs.

I can't say I've played in any advanced RPs on this forum, but it use to be the only thing I did. There are plenty of ways to bulk up a post that are interesting and don't involve writing page after page of inner monologues.

You can describe objects, places, and the like. Not just how they look, but their history.

So instead of writing "Bob thought that he had the most amazing mug in the world, because it was his favorite color and had a nice smell etc etc." You can instead be like "Bob held a mighty fine cup. It was carved from the ivory tusk of an elephant, and had to be made out of a single piece to avoid seams etc etc." The difference being that while only mind readers would know what bob is thinking moment to moment, other characters could be familiar with the history of an object. So then someone can post for Gary noticing the cup and being familiar with all of its details.

What I notice mostly about looking at how things are written between free and advanced is that the players care more about stuff aside from their character. Free players just want to know and write about what their character is doing, while the Advanced players want to know how every bobble works and what the mountain people eat every morning. If you don't care about lore, there's little for you in advanced.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I've only ever participated in advanced RPs and there are plenty of people there who understand that quantity doesn't equal quality. It varies a great deal, if there is a lot of dialogue for example, post length is necessarily short, though I usually get around this by empowering my partners to take conditional control of my character. We have discussed the themes and there characters ahead of time so I can have a reasonable expectation that they will use my character in the correct spirit. If not I ask them to rewrite or allow me to suggest what my character would actually do (this has never actually come up). Sharing control of characters at a fairly superficial level allows you to move through dialogue much faster and makes it easier on everyone. That, to me, is what advanced writing is. We trust each other to work in the interests of the story and not myopically focus on our own characters.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by mickilennial
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The perceived elitism of advanced is kind of an urban legend and misconception by this point in RPG's timeline. The sort of huffy elite club mentality hasn't been true of the section in quite some time.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BrokenPromise
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@Penny Interesting way of handling the situation of people using your character.

I tend to just collab with people.
Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Candelabra
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@BrokenPromise
Elite force is a bit much. And I do think that when you specify quantity and link it to a title like "Advanced" while saying that lesser quality is expected of the categories that write less, then yeah, there's going to be an association with that section as where "the best of the best" go to write.

And in the case you mentioned, then yeah, that's cool, but then you have to go into the conversational section of the writing which is where the bloat I was talking about comes from. I feel like if you have to write constantly when there's not much to say, then you're setting yourself up to practice Purple Prose. Though I do think that you can very easily integrate that kind of lore in a Casual RP.

And I'm gonna reiterate that this isn't meant to shit on you for liking what you like, just a means to have a discussion over an opinion I figure would be controversial that I want to talk about.

@Inkarnate
Mm, I think you're going a little extreme. Rather than being a minimalist or maximalist, why not adopt either or depending on the context? This isn't me saying that long always equals bad. As you said, it's okay when there's a need.

It's more that when you label a section where the expectation is that you have paragraphs upon paragraphs per post, people are inevitably going to be focus on minutia to follow those guidelines, whether it leads them to improve their writing or not. By associating such a format with Advanced, you are implying that it's better than the other categories.

In a conversation, I do a think a paragraph is good enough because you can add a lot of subtletys into your characters' actions to develop them without spelling everything out for your partner. There's not much to be gained from constant deliberation in what should be a naturally flowing encounter.

@Penny
Yeah, that seems like a smart workaround. I had it drilled into my head that taking control of another person's character is SINFUL so I forget about that as possibility.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by mickilennial
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This site is too obsessed with collabs and often does them wrong.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Candelabra
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This site is too obsessed with collabs and often does them wrong.


How do you mean?
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BrokenPromise
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<Snipped quote by Inkarnate>

How do you mean?


They treat them like a string of solo posts, so there's a lot of head hopping, repeating, and other unpleasantness. if I had to guess.

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Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by mickilennial
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They treat them like a string of solo posts, so there's a lot of head hopping, repeating, and other unpleasantness. if I had to guess.

Essentially.

This is one of the main reasons why collab posts are technically incorrect.

There is no consistent narrator in a collaboration post, so generally when one reads them devoid of their involvement they read like a badly written orchestration of ideas. You see awkward shifts often where people jump from past and present tense and others who simply lack narrative cohesion where there is no reliable narration. It ends up reading as a incoherent mesh of ideas and this is the median average of RPG collaborations. Some people do it right, but they are often the exception and not the rule.

This isn’t even bringing up the second issue, however, which is that people are often stuck relying on them. Especially in later casual and advanced circles. Instead of just role-playing and keeping pace, people are stuck waiting days, sometimes weeks for a simple addition of one line of dialogue. There was one case where I was waiting two months on one line of dialogue and a descriptive paragraph. While this isn't unique to collaborations, it just is amplified in them. They are project posts and people seem to forget that the best post in a sequence might be a series of short ones between parties rather than one giant collab that is both literally inept but purposely so.

It is for this and other reasons that people who rely on collabs are not good role-players. They might be solid writers (but often-times they are not), but they are not good role-players.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by NuttsnBolts
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<Snipped quote by Inkarnate>

How do you mean?


People treat it like a duet with both trying to leave their mark, rather than one person as a lead and the other offering information and dialogue support.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by PrinceAlexus
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I have seen some hefty posts in casual and other places. And written some exceeding 3000 words. Not advanced.

Length no.

More advanced i see as sitting stricter on details, settings and accuracy. Deeper or more planned stories and so. Of course the line between some casual and some advanced gets rather blurred.

Its more a very individual thing where its sits.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BrokenPromise
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...but then you have to go into the conversational section of the writing which is where the bloat I was talking about comes from. I feel like if you have to write constantly when there's not much to say, then you're setting yourself up to practice Purple Prose.


Then don't? I've never really had that problem. If everyone's seated at a round table having a discussion, You can collaborate, bunny, or simply write less. I've never really thought to myself: "Shit! I need to blow this up to five paragraphs so that nobody thinks I'm slacking!" I must stress I have yet to really write in this forum's advanced section, and am simply familiar with that style of role playing.

Though I do think that you can very easily integrate that kind of lore in a Casual RP.


You can, which is probably why I've never felt the need to post outside of casual.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by mickilennial
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"Shit! I need to blow this up to five paragraphs so that nobody thinks I'm slacking!"

Me in Advanced RPs on this site in 2013-2014, lol.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Quick say "yes" with 3 pages of padding ;)
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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#Advancedmasterrace

Honestly I think the main reason some people might believe that 'advanced' is a higher tier is simply the name.

Granted, I wouldn't call someone who writes 7 paragraphs of bad grammar and worse colloquialisms such as "he said in his british accent" or "the thot replied flirtily" as an advanced post. You can give free leeway, and Casual you can maybe. It entirely depends. I honestly think people get too salty over the category naming conventions.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Andreyich
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You should consider high casual low advanced :^)
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Carlyle
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I'd get into advanced RPs more often if I didn't want to shoot myself reading a lengthy, purple prose-like response each post in order to write one myself just to keep up and give them something to respond to. Some RPs are decent at not doing that, sure, but I've seen more than a couple with excessive length posts.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Penny
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People don't like to think of themselves as 'lower' than advanced I suppose
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