Tips for writing POC, LGBT+, and other minority characters in RP

[Andreyich]

<Snipped quote by Andreyich>

That’s an interesting point, and I definitely don’t doubt it. However I also have a couple Latinx friends who do use “Spanglish” in their daily life, so I wonder if there’s some variation across people from different cultures? Living in the southwestern region of America, we have a lot of people from Mexico in my county, and it seems to vary even person to person whether they weave Spanish into their speech or not.

@Dagger

That is a matter of dialect vs not knowing the language. "Spanglish" is from my experience spoken by people with a fine grasp of the English language but have learned their own specific variants of it.

Of Latin American countries I have only been to Cuba and Mexico (and admittedly much more the former), but when off a resort or airport I promptly found the behaviour I described wherein attempts to speak English did not include Spanish elements. When I switched to French with a few of them it occasionally happened that they threw in a Spanish word or two, but that is a product of the two languages being very similar, and while not completely accurate a good comparison would be someone from the British Isles using "rubbish" in the Americas when they should have said trash. Moreover, diasporas and people from the "old country" tend to develop very distinct cultures.

As a comparable example is here in my native Belarus the vast majority of people speak a transitional language known as Trasianka that is a mixture of Russian and Belarusian. The exact proportion of the mixture depends how far East you live, but this isn't because they don't know either of the languages poorly, its simply because this is what they gained fluency in.

So, back to my original point. People who have not gained complete fluency in English will not throw in words from our first languages. They're not idiots, they're well aware that 9/10 times this will make the person they are speaking to only more confused. Indeed, as an English speaker who tried (and admittedly failed) to master German, when I was in Germany I did not insert English words into my German speech save for the rare exceptions I came upon a person I knew for a fact had some measure of English proficiency (mostly Munich airport staff).

[Fiscbryne]

<Snipped quote by Andreyich>

That’s an interesting point, and I definitely don’t doubt it. However I also have a couple Latinx friends who do use “Spanglish” in their daily life, so I wonder if there’s some variation across people from different cultures? Living in the southwestern region of America, we have a lot of people from Mexico in my county, and it seems to vary even person to person whether they weave Spanish into their speech or not.

@Dagger

Code-switching is a real phenomenon that occurs both for bilingual people and for people speaking different varieties of the same language (as the AAVE example in the Wikipedia link points out). Spanglish is an example of that, though it could also be classed as a creole or pidgin language depending on the linguist you ask and the particular people you're talking about.

Code-switching doesn't happen, as I think @Andreyich was pointing out, just for 'flavor,' just to let you know that this character's Russian or French or Japanese or what have you. Real code-switching relies on how both speaker and audience perceive each other and how marked the language/language variety being switched to (aka the 'code' in 'code-switching') is. It generally happens when both speakers are familiar with both codes—somebody fluent in Japanese and English might speak a mixture of the two with their parents who know both or with peers who know both; it's unlikely to happen with strangers who don't know both, i.e. friends who don't know both languages. Intimacy is another influence to a degree; code-switching can be a marker of friendship or solidarity in certain cases, and in environments where code-switching is frowned upon or even just abnormal (and thus likely to create alienation), it's less likely to occur as well. There's a lot more to it, but generally I'd say that in the context of RP, it's important to consider two things: the first being if the audience of the character who is code-switching knows both languages being switched to, the second being how intimate these two speakers are (or are trying to present themselves as being). If those two conditions aren't being met, then generally—there are exceptions, of course—I would avoid it.

[Rogue Sloth]

@Fiscbryne

Ironically, I was just talking with someone about AAVE earlier today. I’d never heard of code-switching before, since it’s not really part of my life experience. Thanks for the explanation and link! Super helpful stuff.

[BangoSkank]

Relevant and excuse to post this.

YouTube Video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yEo87oaQXZY

[Mrgrimjaw]

@Dagger just write them like i write stright character i see them all the same human no matter sexuality or skin color

[Mrgrimjaw]

@BrokenPromise I agree just write like any other character but advice dont use poc a lot of black latinos and others hate it find it racist oh dont use latinix latinos hate it both term do more harm then good to minarty groups it dehumanizes them.

[Mrgrimjaw]

@Andreyich plesse dont use Latixis two reasons reason 1 its not a real word reason 2 Latinos find it 100% offensive .

[BrokenPromise]

@Mrgrimjaw???

[Mrgrimjaw]

@BrokenPromise I said black people and other non European decent people hate the terms POC and Latinos hate Latinx never use either its harms then dehumanizes them you doing more harm then good never use terms from the party that starts with the letter D

[Rogue Sloth]

@Mrgrimjaw I think a lot of that depends a lot on specific people and regions. Literally every Latino person in my life uses Latinx when writing (not in speech) and I live right by the border with Mexico, so there are quite a few of them. That could very well be different in other places/countries (I'm American), but making a blanket statement like that excludes all others who think to the contrary. Same goes for the preference of the term POC. All my non-white friends definitely make use of it when describing their life experiences.

Also, if there are people who dislike the term, what would be something those people groups prefer in alternative? The people in my life seem to dislike 'minority' more than 'POC' because it highlights social situations and injustices they don't like to think about.

Baseline point I'm trying to make is that everyone is different, and it seems best to ask individuals what they prefer rather than make assumptions, just like you would with a transgender person's pronouns.

[Mrgrimjaw]

@Dagger do you homework on this topic I have read comments of blacks saying they hate POC same with Latinos hating latinx plus it's 100% stupid to use be honest and racist both are just call a black person black and a latino latino that easy but here's answers for you.

quora.com/Am-I-the-only-one-who-finds…

reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/…

reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comment…

independent.co.uk/voices/black-women-…

I hope the links help you show how insentive both words are.

[Rogue Sloth]

@Mrgrimjaw In my opinion, telling minorities what terms they should use to describe themselves is dangerous territory, as I said my minority friends are the ones who use the terms to talk about themselves and their life experiences. If some people find the terms offensive, then I'm happy to adjust my language for them, but I don't see this as a one-size-fits-all case.

And anyway, that isn't what this thread is about, so as the OP I'd appreciate it if you shut down the calling out of other participants and calling people racist for not using the language you've approved of. Thanks.

[Mrgrimjaw]

@Dagger i agree but did you click the links? I see everyone as people nothing more be honest.

[BrokenPromise]

Dagger has already stated that they'd rather not continue down this topic. So I've scrap the response I was writing.

But this does tie back to some of the things I was talking about earlier. You really are better off addressing your character's environment and history rather than their skin color and sexuality. A black dude who grew up in Africa is going to look at the world differently than one that grew up in the Bronx.

[Andreyich]

@Andreyich plesse dont use Latixis two reasons reason 1 its not a real word reason 2 Latinos find it 100% offensive .

@Mrgrimjaw

Im not the one who used it and I never use it leave me alone

[Dracorex]

Seconding the people who spoke about how context - the circumstances of someone's upbringing, the ways in which their behaviour such as language use change based on who they interact with, the awareness that so much of how this very subject being discussed is largely being filtered through a generally Western and specifically American lens - is key to writing about different kinds of people.

To illustrate: I'm Singaporean Chinese, born and raised in Singapore. Despite the common Western perception of Asian countries, English is not a second language to me, it is effectively my first language alongside my mother tongue, because all subjects except the mother tongues (primarily Mandarin, Malay and Tamil) are taught in English here from preschool onwards, it's the main working language etc., not just the lingua franca. By race, (roughly) 74% of people in my country are Chinese, 13% are Malay, and 9% are Indian. Obviously, I do not think of myself as being of the 'minority', because I'm not, and I don't think of myself as a person of colour, because where I live, my race is the 'default' and white people here are some fraction of the 3.something% of the population that doesn't identify as Chinese/Malay/Indian.

So, I have next to nothing to say about writing racial minorities in a Western setting, because that's not my lived experience, I don't know shite. I watch movies, I read books, I know there's suburbs and high schools, and Americans talking about police brutality and BLM on Tumblr, but none of that really tells me what life, regular normal growing up there would be like if I were Chinese American. Ironically, white Americans would know more about that than I would XD.

'But Draco,' I hear you say, 'you're still Chinese! Any tips about language and culture and such?'

Well... Sure, I speak Mandarin. I know something about the practices and myths of my culture. But as has been pointed out, the people of a race aren't homogenous at all. Even where I live:

• For many Chinese, the mother tongue spoken at home isn't Mandarin, but one of the various Chinese dialects, most commonly Hokkien, Cantonese, Teochew, Hakka, etc.. The dialects are not mutually intelligible for the most part, so honestly, people who speak a dialect plus English and Mandarin are trilingual XD. There are older folks here for whom the dialect is their main tongue, and don't speak Mandarin or English (or not fluently).
• There are different styles of cuisine too, and I'm a lot less versed in what the differences are between dialect groups, but what my mom cooks at home is pretty mild in flavour profiles, especially compared to, like, Sichuan hot and spicy stuff. We never learned how to make dumplings or noodles, but there are families who still do that sort of thing.
• As far as I know, Buddhism and Taoism are the most common religions among Chinese folks here, but personally I'm agnostic, and Christianity is making some headway.
• Names: there are
  
  • rarely: people recently from China (for various definitions of 'recent') who have single-character given names, eg. Yang Jie (Yang is the family name, Jie is the given), that's it, Yang Jie is the person's entire name
  • commonly: two-character given names, eg. Yang Tian Yong
  • commonly: having both an English and a Chinese name, eg. James Yang Wei Jie, or Yang Wei Jie Cameron, the order tends to be up to the individual's parents XD; no the English name does not have to 'match' the Chinese name by rhyme or meaning.

So, like, just within my social circles, I know:

• a family that's really traditional Buddhist, they don't eat beef (this is a Chinese thing rather than a Buddhist thing), sometimes eat vegetarian, go to the temple every Sunday (it's just because weekends are the free time, it doesn't have to be Sunday the way it is for Christians)...
• a family that's not just very Christian but also very 'Westernised', they speak English at home, they cook Western fare, they don't really concern themselves with Chinese festivals since they feel that would go against their beliefs
• a family that has relatives that identify as Catholic, but they also burn incense for their ancestors every year because they're honoring them through said ancestors' ways, and a grandmother that converted from Catholic to praying to traditional Chinese gods because one time her kids were very ill and she went to the temple to pray and they got well afterwards
• families that don't really care about religion either way, just casually celebrate Chinese New Year, and eat mooncakes at Mid-Autumn

And so I'll wrap this up by noting that rather than generalities, you might be better served by coming up with a more specific concept on a per-character basis, then going to folks who are familiar with whatever it is you want to do to ask them for relevant details in fleshing out that particular character concept XD.

[BangoSkank]

Not to like yoink that concept but that second to last one makes a much more interesting and rich character background than "Chinese POC"

Like if you're doing a San Fran/Hong Kong/Seoul based RP and you have a character whose family is Christian (or Atheist) but their mom still prays to traditional Chinese Gods because once when her child (your character) was small and very ill she prayed at a temple and her baby got better.

That's just a lot more interesting. Much more relatable.

If you're going to write about a Hispanic/White/Black/Latinx/POC/AAPI/Whatever character fleshing it out a little at the start with something like that, some sort of slightly complicated life perspective can help flesh it out beyond merely this person is an X Y whose parents are W

We've thus far been talking about the minority aspect of this as if all RPs were taking place in modern America, but this would also apply to other nations, times and fantasy or science fiction races and groups.

[Penny]

Generally write as some sort of non-human or human adjacent fantasy race. Mostly Halflings. Usually sexuality doesn't come up.

@BangoSkank

Write that sexy halfling adventure!

[Rogue Sloth]

Spin off question (I'll update the original post too): What are obstacles you have to writing characters who are a different gender/race/sexuality/any other quality as yourself?

I notice a lot of people in the 1x1 section seem to stick to writing as their own gender and want to open this thread up further for discussion and advice for anyone who might want to branch out from their niche, whatever that may be.

[BrokenPromise]

What are obstacles you have to writing characters who are a different gender/race/sexuality/any other quality as yourself?

Other people.

It seems like everyone has an opinion about how your progressive character should be written, even if they share no traits with said character. Some people seem to believe that how you write one character frames how you view an entire group of people. If you make a Mexican character who can't cook, you're saying all Mexican people can't cook. If one of your villains are gay, you're saying all gay people are evil. Some days it feels like the only way to make a "good" progressive character is to make them flawless and infallible, but that's god modding and never makes for an interesting story.

I'm more going by things I've read and seen elsewhere. I've had no real problems writing characters for this site. most people who are into the hobby of writing have been pretty chill.