@Dazsos@Innue
Sent.

I'm reading the bios and will probably issue a ruling tomorrow. I have a lot of facts to consider.

@Innue Sounds good.

See I don't mean 'list of every single named spell under the sun' when I say that, what I mean is an overview of what he's capable of, from highs to lows. What's the use of having profiles if half or more of the information is hidden? None of my character's spells are hidden, so I don't see why Corban should be able to wing spells mildly related to any magic he has a mild memory of. (When he has short-term memory loss...)

In my opinion, if you give a single word as an example of a realm of magic, you should only be allowed the dictionary definition of that word, in terms of power.

"Evocation: Evocation is the act of calling upon or summoning a spirit, demon, god or other supernatural agent, in the Western mystery tradition." Nowhere does this say that non-sentient cryogenic kinetic controlling bombs are listed, and if they ought to be... that means evocation, for Corban, means he is able to summon anything that possibly exists out of... well... who knows where? That alone is millions of spells more than I've listed Myron having. Every single element or elemental combination in the table of elements! That... in my opinion, is kind of over-powered, or at least high powered, in that it allows Corban to do virtually whatever he wants with whatever he wants.

Secondly, it may be stated that Corban can control crystals, but this is described as carbokinesis, which revolves around the control of carbon, not the control of hydrogen. His control should still not surpass Myron's. Sure, he may have advanced understanding of the pattern in which ice takes when solidified, however he does not have an atomic control or understanding of water. This is where having something defined specifically in a profile should matter.

I can see Corban creating a bomb that temporarily disables kinetic energy within an area... however, to fully lock all motion in that area absolutely, and permanently, he would require such a strong & continuous supply of personal mana or energy, which he should need to focus on. And even then, to deny movement in its basic form, even to deny magical or spiritual control, must require he manifest his own control over it on an absolute and godlike level, dividing it from time itself almost. I just don't see the current version of it, concocted within a second, having such absolute sway. You seem to want Corban to be able to nullify every type of magic Myron has, instantly, whilst simultaneously having perfect spells that cannot be dismissed. Even though I have a way to block Corban's next attack in my head, and Myron's water icicles may not even matter in the end of things... I just don't see it as valid.

On another note, you didn't really give me proper explanations of his abilities. You also completely left out the category of divination from his spellset. I know what you wrote, however I'm asking you to add it to his visible profile because a judge may want to know exactly what Corban is capable of, before making a ruling. You said it's based on D&D, but not everyone plays D&D, I'm a Dungeon Master myself and I'm the one who has issues with a profile lacking necessary information.

Ignoring my requests about Ishtalle's unlisted spells constantly. When you say 'I have spells I don't have to tell you about before our battle,' that translates in my brain in to: "If you get an advantage on me, I'm going to metagame."

Except you constantly ask for information that doesn't exist. I even gave examples of spells that could and do fall under each school. There isn't any info on divination because its self explanatory from his sheet. Its clear he's quite skilled at divining magic. Its one of his major skills.

It also isn't your call, again, to apply definitions to my magic simply because that's what works for you. Why should my abilities or knowledge be limited to a single definition simply because you'd like them to be that definition? Why should my evocation be anything other than what it is? Evocation happens to be a thorough school of magic with rules and laws governing it. Evocation, as far as the 8 schools of magic are concerned, is the manipulation of various energies for generally high power attacks. i specifically included elemental magic in my synopsis in pm's. Your lack of knowledge on the eight schools of magic isn't reason enough for me to have to alter their effect, description, or wording at all.

I am also not metagaming in the slightest. Everything I've done has been possible with what is on my sheet, and had some form of previous mention. Nothing is being suddenly shown to you that had no mention or prep previously stated. The risk of metagaming is incredibly low on that front. If a judge wants to know what corban is capable of it is their right to ask and be answered. I shouldn't have to arbitrarily list things I never intended to list to you under the pretense of 'helping the judge'. That is a flimsy false pretense to make you privy to knowledge you shouldn't be privy to. I didn't ask you to make your sheet the way you made it, so using that as an arguing point is also moot.

You are also falsely paraphrasing my profile. Carbokinesis and crystal magic are entirely separate abilities. Telling me that I can't use crystals or ice because they are not all carbon is the same as totally ignoring the section of my sheet that expounds on 'crystal magic'. The way he even made his polearm was based on crystal lattice principles and transmutation. Almost all metals are crystalline atomically.

You are also applying arbitrary limits to my character. Why would it take a constant stream of mana to rob the kinetic energy out of surroundings? How would that even work physically? The liquid itself does that for him. Saying that my technique has to be prepped to be effective is also a moot argument. Preps are only outliners of raw power, not necessarily effectiveness. The spell effect does also not need to be permanent at all. If you'd like me to have a post limit on the spell it would be as simple as saying the word.

I also don't get how you're a GM(assuming for a d&D campaign) and yet dont understand the most basic part of any spell casting class, which are the eight schools of magic.

Edit: Cutting you off from your magic would also not take 'god-like' control. The proof is in my post. Its a tactical way of cutting you off from your source of power without relying on the 'control' part of the equation at all. Your issue seems to be more with what I did than how I did it, which I suspected from the start.

Edit 2: His profile isn't 'half hidden' either. I said it before and I'll say it again, everything he can do is done using what is present in his sheet. The only thing missing are his exact spells, which I feel should not be mandatory, anyway. You have no reason, other than personal convenience, to accuse me of metagaming.

Edit 3: Where did you get that Corban has short-term memory loss? That isn't stated anywhere in the RP or his profile. If anything, his memory is above average. I honestly can see you have taken very little time to actually read my sheet, and have been skimming for convenient argument points. From the definition of his magics to the extent of his memory it has been clear you're grasping at straws.

My apologies on the short-term memory loss idea, I saw the phrase 'short term memory' in conjunction with his ability to cast spells, and you know... it's vague enough to distract my own short term memory. Flower text here, direct inserts there, you know how the imperfect human brain works. Regardless, this isn't the real issue.

As for the rest... you're talking about information that doesn't exist, then arguing that everything is there. I'm the one that has to interpret your character's profile, I'm the person you're roleplaying with! If it's impossible to interpret properly, or you're explaining it wrong to me... that's not an issue I'm 100% at fault for, not even slightly.

I'm not applying my own definitions to your magic, I'm applying the definitions of the words you're using to your magic. You're applying the definitions in your head, which aren't listed, and are not on your character's sheet. This applies to roughly seven of his bracketed abilities. (Also, AGAIN, you stated in the PM that Ishtalle knows spells that are NOT in your sheet. If only the judges could actually see our private conversation.)

"His profile isn't half hidden! Just his spells!" Well fuck. That's only the part that's important in combat roleplay!

If anyone came in to my d&d group saying they were already level 50 and didn't need to show me all the spells they've acquired... I'd whip my d20 at their head. Swear to god.

@DazsosSpells are the most important part of a sheet filled with combat information? Geeze. Guess I should have actually written a sheet. Oh wait, that's right. There is also no real flower text on my sheet. That was you just skimming, like you have been this whole time while somehow claiming my sheet isn't inclusive enough. I mean, you outright stated that my crystal magic and carbokinesis are the same thing, when they are both listed, and entirely separate.

I am saying everything that he does is fully capable with what is present on his sheet, and everything he does will be done using what is there. The spells are just not listed because I have no list. This is something I explained to you from the beginning.

You are still ascribing your personal definitions to words on my sheet. No matter how you try to talk around it, that is exactly what you're doing. Those words have multiple definitions. That is a fact. Dont believe me? Look at any D&D manual. You cannot try to forcibly alter the definitions(and therefore scope and effect) of my abilities based on your perception of them or clear lack thereof, or the real reason, convenience.

You keep saying my spells are 'hidden' when that is a false statement. They aren't hidden, for the last time. I just have no definitive list. How can someone conceivably hide something that was never there in the first polace? I dont know how many times I've repeated something to you explaining it and then you turn around and completely ignore everything that isn't convenient to your argument, and then re-assume your previous argument anyway, despite my explanations.

The judge has also seen our pm's. They are probably far less damaging to me than they are for you. They put on display your constant inability to understand what's going on, even when I explain it plainly to you. They display you applying false, convenient definitions to my magic that are wrong no matter how you try to backdate and argue around it. They finally show you constantly nitpicking just about every single post I've made since we began, changing your reason for complaint every time I alleviate one of your arguing points. I am beginning to see nothing but a serial complainer and whiner.

At this point I'm done with the arguing. I can't possibly explain any more than I already have while maintaining my civility, and being uncivil is very unbecoming. I have broken down his other schools of magic, gave examples of spells in those schiols, and essentially did everything you've asked of me, and you keep digging for more, arguing for more powers after I've already granted you both your gravity and teleport runes. Two very powerful abilities.

You would strike someone for not having a comprehensive list of spells? That's fair. Know what I'd slap a DM for? Having the audacity to call himself a DM without understanding the most basic principles of character/class archetypes.... Like the schools of magic.

Also, here's several definitions for the word evocation. Found after literally typing 'evocation' into google search.

Evocation

So yes, please do keep trying to convince myself and the judge that you aren't choosing the most convenient definition for you, and then trying to apply that false definition to my skills that I have already explained to you, but that you continue to ignore because it doesn't work for your argument.

One final note in terms of Corban's lack of a spell list. On his sheet, it straight up says Corban does not memorize spells like most wizards(such as Myron), but instead memorizes their principles.

"Extension - Some mages just memorize the spells that are in the book; Corban memorizes the principles, then mixes and matches them on demand."

Case and point is his clone, which applies practical transmutation and earth magic knowledge, but an illusory principle in that its fooling your characters senses, but not through magical tampering.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

"The act of calling forth." Alright well I didn't hear Corban yell. "Oh great cryogenic anti-kinetic energy bomb, insert yourself in to my clone so that I may bombard my opponent!" So obviously this version of evocation is exactly what I feared it would be, after nitpicking enough information to discern it as: Corban has the ability to create or summon absolutely any element, entity, or construct possibly conceivable to mankind, an extremely overpowered feat, and he gets away with it because you wrote one word in his profile? Also, this was my original argument, and I don't like how he can summon everything without properly 'calling forth,' for it, nor that it has been shown with a cast time whatsoever. (merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evocation summarizes it as simply 'summoning a spirit.' Or 'bringing something to mind or memory.' AKA Remembering something.)

See this is why I nitpick the vague for information. Because, as you say, I did have the wrong idea about your spells... you gave me the wrong impression entirely! "He likes evocation" =/= "He can tap in to Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon." How can I sit idle, when you purposely jumped in to a mid-tier fight, with a character who can do virtually anything conceivable, is a complete anti-mage, and your only descriptions of him have been 'oh yes his sensory level is godlike,' 'oh yes, he's capable of everything and I don't require a list of spells,' 'yes he's superhuman, oh I know your character isn't, but that's okay,' etc etc. You've only described him as a higher and higher tiered character every bit along the way, and I was convinced this was a mid-tier fight initially. Unlocking those runes made this a little more fair for me, so thank you for that, but even then they're not as powerful as 'evocation' alone can be in the d&d handbook. The rift rune is a little spacial pocket that has a cast time, evocation (with your new definition) is bending the laws of reality to do the exact same thing, but produce from that pocket... anything!

Now you state it's necessary I understand every magic in D&D to understand your character? Or at least, you berate me for it? Well there was no mention of Dungeons OR Dragons in your profile, so why should Corban have access to even half a manual's worth of spells? The fact I do DM, and I have a rough memory of the magic realms is the reason I'm nitpicking you. Because D&D is so anal about specifics, but this is not D&D, If it was, you would have a list of spells. Simply 'liking' a magic realm says nothing at all. Myron likes evocation, too! Should he be allowed to pull rabbits out of his butt?

@Dazsos Once again, you're building your argument on false data. Evocation does not at all absolutely require there be a verbal component to its spells. Furthermore, Corban is only D&D based. If I played it straight and true he'd also have stats and would function on dice rolls. D&D is the base of his powers because its a very universally liked and understood system. You are still reading the Merriam Webster dictionary version, and have yet to quote or link a single d&d source. Strange coincidence? I think not, for that would work against your argument.for probably the fourth time now, you cannot label my magic what is most convenient for you.

Corban cannot 'summon any construct or ability under the sun' either. His abilities are primarily limited to what is capable within those schools of magic that at least has 'like' next to them. So yes, that includes the primary four elements, something many, many wizard/mage characters are also capable of. Expanding on the single-word terms, now. 'like' would not suffice by itself if a verb, such as 'abuse', which implies active use and not simply passerby knowledge wasn't also listed there. You only seem to notice and mention the 'vaguness' that you feel helps your argument, while ignoring everything else. Considering your next-to-zero knowledge about what is actually present on my sheet(remember when you thought two separately listed magics were the same? Remember when you assumed corban had short term memory because you didnt really read the sheet?), id be very careful about trying to quote it in the future. To expand further, I also gave you more in depth descriptions of each school and his skills and limitations with them in pm's. Stop using the 'one word' argument when you have far more than that to go off of because you specifically asked for it.

You can also drop the high tier argument. Your character has been capable of dealing with Corban at every step. Lets not get into how your character could eat a diamond bullet to the chest, and disintegrate literally Everything with no preps or actual work put in. I've only given what's been given to me.

Most mid-tier characters are superhuman. Isn't that specifically what sets it apart from low tier? The fact that the characters can have powers, and extra human physiology? Simply because you decided your character would not be metahuman in terms of physicality does not constitute my character being high tier.

You already can control gravity, and you can already teleport, which I'm saying for the probably tenth time now. You have access to abilities just as 'taboo' as you seem Corban's abilities are. I personally have never met any combatant who can teleport and still calls that a 'mid tier' ability.

Edit: My definition of evocation is not 'new' and it wasn't invented by me for one. For two, evocation does not at all function like a rune that can teleport a caster any distance in the confines of a ranked combat RP. Summoning energies into existence is far different than moving yourself through space and time. That's like saying anything that summons anything from anywhere functions like teleportation. Lolwhat?

Edit 2: I dont 'expect' you to know about d&d, but that's the system I use regardless. I berated you for claiming you are a d&d gm, yet couldn't be more ignorant of one its most important systems, misquoting and mislabeling it every time you get the chance.

Am I right in thinking that a full sheet of Corban's powers was not sent to a judge -before- the fight began?

It is a battle between more strictly defined spells vs a more flexible interpretation.

I'm reading through the fight - I've read through both bios. I'll do the ruling in the next few hours.

Can I get a quicknotes from one of you in regards to the spells being used?

Like:
Spell used - post spell originated in - post spell used in

It will help me make sure I am reading all of the stuff correctly and understanding what precisely is going on.

Alright it's just getting out of hand now. I shouldn't have been so passive aggressive or sarcastic, cause now the debate is turning in to somewhat of a pissing contest.

Let's get down to the raw issues at hand here, no more spitting or namecalling.

Firstly, cast times. Your character did a lot in a 1-2 second cast time. Most wizard spells in D&D require an entire action post to use one spell. I count (summon earth clone, dig underground, summon kinetic bomb, summon cryogenic freezing application) 4 spells cast in an instant.

Secondly, since you didn't initiate this battle assuming I knew anything about D&D, I feel as though proper, accurate depictions of his full skillset are necessary. Typically I rely on the dictionary for explanations on words, not a guide book that you didn't mention until later.

You did give me a list of his abilities, after my prying. They are:

Conjuration - Poor: Corban is not very skilled with spells that fall or function under the Conjuration class. Cross-planar portal creation is out of his reach, and he is not skilled at summoning creatures to his aid.

Enchantment - Skilled: Primarily learned from his close proximity to Ishtalle, whom owns a vast library of enchantments herself. Years of study has made Corban quite proficient at creating weapon and armor enchantments. Can be co-opted with Ishtalle for joint-enchanting. Elemental enchantments are common day variety, and his prime vocations of abjuration and transmutation can also have their principles applied. Despite corban disliking enchantments as an area of study, he nevertheless still knows what he's doing

Evocation - Gifted: Corban is a battle-mage by class, and half of that equation relies heavily on the use of powerful spells. These spells generally fall under the Evocation school, and are appropriately vehicles of great power, generally. Spell examples include elemental attacks such as 'bolt', or the iconic 'fire ball'. His vast experience and expertise in this school allows him to apply it in ever more creative ways.

Necromancy - poor: Corban is not very attuned to the flow of life energy, and has devoted little time to its practical study. He cannot reanimate corpses, or freely manipulate the flow of life and death like even a novice necromancer.

Illusion - General: The principles of illusion-based magic are known to Corban, and he has devoted a note able amount of time to the fields study. However, he does not have ready access to spells that actually directly effect the senses in abstract ways. The principles of illusion however can be applied to his various other vocations.

The above is still vague.

Conjuration - You only explained what Corban cannot do, but not anything about what he can do.

Divination - This realm was left out, you didn't explain Corban's prowess with this skill to me.

Enchantment - I'm fine with this, it was the most explanatory synopsis.

Evocation - You only gave me two true examples. Lightning magic, and fire magic. Nothing about him controlling lightning or fire was actually mentioned in the initial character sheet, and your average joe who doesn't play D&D would assume Invocation doesn't mean mastery of any elemental magic. You were the one who referenced dictionary.com first, and Mirriam didn't mention fire magic, either. I'm honestly fine with this magic if - IF, I can see a good list of spells.

Necromancy - Again, you detail what Corban cannot do, without mention as to what he's capable of at all.

Illusionry - Minor detailing of how he understands illusions, and how to trick people. I'm fine with this, I guess.

@DazsosActually, almost everything I did was a prepped action of some sort. Corban is fully capable of 'quick-casting' as well, especially if most of those spells fall within his primary vocations. You're also forgetting how the flow of time works in the context of the fight. The only things casted side-by-side were the rail gun bullet, and the clone, and they were actually one after the other, not simultaneous. I function on preps and advantages/disadvantages, not a particular foci dedicated to the formation of spells, unless I especially want to pack some umph into a particular attack or defense, like when I explained a prep for my diamond bullet to be the formation of it. Again, d&d based. I also have some Baldur's Gate influence in there. Moving on now!

Conjuration: I didn't list what he could do because he really can't do anything with it, other than find creative ways to apply its principles, which admittedly are probably not many. Its a class of magic he simply has close to zero experience in.

Divination: I swore I explained this in pm's. Regardless, Corban is quite skilled at divination magic. This magic revolves entirely around 'secrets' and unveiling them. This applies primarily to extrasensory perception such as mage-sight, and this mixed with his vast worldly knowledge is what allows him to 'divine' magic and spell components. Spells such as Scry, detect magic, and reveal hidden door are examples of spells in this class.

Evocation: I didn't really think more than two would be necessary. I didn't think I'd need to state every element for you to get that "Elemental attacks including lightning and fire" was just an example of the dichotemy of it. I can pull up a comprehensive list of every spell in the evocation class from the D&D 3.5 edition books. Clearly Corban does not have access or even need for all of them. They are merely examples so you understand that they do include elemental magics: Here you go.

Necromancy: Just like Illusion and Conjuration, Corban has no real skill casting spells in this class, as he's dedicated no time of study to practical spell-use. This is why no capabilities were mentioned, because he really has none. Just like illusion, he understands the principles behind necromancy and can use this knowledge to detect and divine spells under its class and such.

@InnueSure, it will just take some time since I'm on mobile >_>

Edit: Would that include a summary of Dazsos' spells as well? Just not sure if he'd want to do that himself.

See now we're getting somewhere, all that condescending bullcrap was doing us absolutely nothing in terms of progress.

So now I have a possible list of spells. However, I still want to know which ones Corban is capable of. See, the versatility of the evocation realm isn't something to scoff at. Depending on how skilled he is, Corban could shoot laser beams out of his eyes, he could summon a meteor from the sky, he could even create a hyper sonic nuke. But I'd say all of these things are mastery level elemental magics. So... I'd want to understand the strongest spells he could muster in evocation, then I can easily determine for myself the lesser spells, and what I'm truly dealing with here. Even wizards specializing in evocation don't know many low level spells, or haven't practiced certain sub-genres.

I assumed it respectful that; if your character can summon large fireballs, that should be made aware of with specifics. But I get it, if you listed all of his individual abilities, that'd be way too much to read, right? Well that'd better describe what he can do, and people would choose characters closer to his level to play with. Myron just happened to be a character I can fit in to both mid-tier and high-tier combat... and right now, I believe we are fighting in the low area of high-tier; both of us.

If anything, I'm not even as troubled by your post, just annoyed at the struggle to extract information. The amount of spells, and the sheer power of them still strike me as odd, however I've always been the type to simply up the anti when in a situation like that. "Oh if he can cast spells that quickly, I should be able to, as well, right?!" That sort of silent mutual agreement. Considering Corban can only quick-cast spells he's already used recently.

@InnueSure, it will just take some time since I'm on mobile >_>

Edit: Would that include a summary of Dazsos' spells as well? Just not sure if he'd want to do that himself.

No rush.

I would like Daz's spells specified as well, just for balance and so I can ensure I read through things correctly.

...I know it's not my fight and I'm a useless fuckwit noob who needs to shut up and GTFO and all, and I'll be getting right on that in a second...

But nobody finds it at all suspicious that Divinity is trying to get permission from the thread judge to summarize his opponent's actions, as well as his own, in a rather heatedly contested exchange?