ironic

I remembered this wasn't really an argument thread, so I'll just dump my perspective here, however out-of-context it might be; I don't know how prolific open SBs are on Guild:

Sandbox roleplays are the antithesis of roleplaying in-general. You can't have a roleplay rely on individual story arcs and it still have the RP title. There's no delicate balance for a GM to uphold between holding players' hands and providing no direction. Literally, all a GM provides "direction-wise" in the first place is a setting. Nothing beyond that is up for them to control. They could tell a player to write their story how they'd personally want them too. Ultimately, people need the courage to create their own narratives independent of other people, so we don't end up with subforums full of damned roleplays because the players don't have an author's grit; they can't keep an independent project alive, how could they do the same for someone else's??

@Odin I mean, you can take this in context all you want but, taking the offending post in question into account

Gotta love GM's who don't converse with their players, rather they hide behind "my word is god ;))" and disregard everyone.

I wonder how their RP's end up dying?

having been on the receiving end of one of these situations, I just kind of agree with the sentiment in general. Recent conflicts or not, it's still a reasonable thing to bitch about and something I am, in fact, still bitching about. Only prolly in a different context.

can't we all just like, vent without having someone getting on our ass because 'muh morals'? attack the stance, not the person.

You do not have the full story. I’m not going to argue for shading people on status bars, but why it finally happened.

The intent was never to throw shade, but this was the only way to get a conversation started with a gm team that seems to either be in denial about everything or simply don’t care. They were told why people were unhappy by a cogm, but the players’ concerns were then dismissed as too sensitive and the matter was “dropped” until new information came out to further support privately communicating was simply not getting through. Hell, that same cogm was later dropped for “not warning them” that there was something going on and essentially blamed for not wishing to give names.

Once again: the status was never intended to be shade, but it became a rant; something to blow off steam from the sheer ridiculousness of the situation. Hive-mind set in and things definitely became too toxic, however, it forced communication between a team and their players. It could have gone a whole lot better, but this was essentially the only way the players were listened to.

@Odin I mean, you can take this in context all you want but, taking the offending post in question into account

<Snipped quote by Raddum>

having been on the receiving end of one of these situaitons, I just kind of agree with the sentiment in general. Recent conflicts or not, it's still a reasonable thing to bitch about and something I am, in fact, still bitching about. Only prolly in a different context.

can't we all just like, vent without having someone getting on our ass because 'muh morals'? attack the stance, not the person.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion I was attacking Raddum because I don’t think I did. But regardless I find that irrelevant to begin with.

If you want to begin with a rhetoric like this then by all means, but then wasn’t my initial post also just bitching about people in here who throw shade in here (constantly)?

I think I did.

@Aewin having spoken to some people on both sides at this point I can say with 100% confidence that neither of the two sides has the full story. I’ve seen some parts of the conversations (this is RPG and spicy drama gets screenshotted) and I can definitely see where both sides are coming from.

The actual conversation that occurred within the playerbase alongside the GM team is all OK with me because I’m not involved with the RP at that level so whatever goes on there is honestly something I’m not even interested in. I was more so commenting on the practice of people who are not in the RP somehow having an opinion on it and ventilating it here or elsewhere for some reason. I find that highly distasteful, and in this case specifically.

EDIT: especially with a shoddy rhetoric of someone basically going “look i virtually destroyed the rp i wasn’t even in, and made people consider leaving RPG but rly guys i did it for the organic confrontation,” which is straight dogshit reasoning.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion I was attacking Raddum because I don’t think I did. But regardless I find that irrelevant to begin with.

uh. this is you moments earlier.

Beyond that you seem to be operating under the assumption I was talking about you when I was speaking (quite clearly imho) about @Raddums most recent posts in the bitch thread. If that is so then I’m sorry but I really don’t even know what you did. But hey, if the shoe fits dude.

I mean, sure, I may have jumped to conclusions, but I'm also doing what you're asking. Forcing a direct confrontation instead of throwing shade at you subtly.

I kind of find the whole 'don't throw shade at people' thing hilarious because people are going to do that anyway, and it coming from the mouth of RPGuild's most confrontational and consistently hot-watered member doesn't really make the stance gain any favors.

...I debated on whether or not to keep that last part in because it was a bit rude, but I think it proves a point.

EDIT: especially with a shoddy rhetoric of someone basically going “look i virtually destroyed the rp i wasn’t even in, and made people consider leaving RPG but rly guys i did it for the organic confrontation,” which is straight dogshit reasoning.

Nobody sat behind a monitor thinking 'Oh let me make somebody feel like shit.', at least not that I am aware of. Players reached their boiling point, and instead of it being listened to privately, it was forced to be aired out in the form of a rant.

<Snipped quote by Odin>

uh. this is you moments earlier.

<Snipped quote by Odin>

I mean, sure, I may have jumped to conclusions, but I'm also doing what you're asking. Forcing a direct confrontation instead of throwing shade at you subtly.

I kind of find the whole 'don't throw shade at people' thing hilarious because people are going to do that anyway, and it coming from the mouth of RPGuild's most confrontational and consistently hot-watered member doesn't really make the stance gain any favors.

...I debated on whether or not to keep that last part in because it was a bit rude, but I think it proves a point.

You consider that an attack on Raddum’s person when I’ve literally explained why I find what he wrote distasteful? Where is the attack on the person?

If you’re gonna throw shade then at least do it directly instead of, as your comrade put it before, “pussyfooting around it” right? I am not complaining about you confronting me - I sinply think you are wrong, lol. Confront me all you want - it’d probably be a first.

<Snipped quote by Odin>

Nobody sat behind a monitor thinking 'Oh let me make somebody feel like shit.', at least not that I am aware of. Players reached their boiling point, and instead of it being listened to privately, it was forced to be aired out in the form of a rant.

So Gowi, who I was just informed by a GM was not actually in the RP, was a player according to you, because according to him he caused this?

The plot thickens.

This is all I'm going to say on the matter, because I don't really want to spend any more time on this matter than I have to: Inkarnate isn't the one at fault here. You can't just pin all the blame on him and paint him as the sole suspect of 'virtually destroying' a roleplay that, as far as I can tell, is still going on without the people that left. The incident in the status bar was a result of tensions building up, which in turn was a result of a GM team that wasn't actually approachable from day one. It took that huge incident for them to stop shrugging off dissatisfied players as (and I quote) sensitive, and to actually start listening to people and encourage them to start being open. Yes, mistakes were made and the situation could have gone a whole lot better. But it's not just the players or the people on the outside bitching that was the problem. People felt too intimidated to approach GMs that shrugged people off and forced their own ideas on other people.

As for the whole 'people on the outside bitching' thing, I'm honestly neutral. If it were any sort of minor thing that prompted it I'd be wholly against it, but forcing your own ideas onto a player and essentially trying to control their character is not an okay thing. People shouldn't just keep quiet about that.

<Snipped quote by KoL>

Because obviously nobody knew what this was about and it was just venting by someone who wasn’t in this RP to begin with and thus had nothing to do witj it? Oh. Thanks for enlightening me. 🤔 You say you’d earn nothing but if people had communicated something could’ve been earned - a better outcome than the one we’ve seen in this case, personal betterment, etc.

I take it you’re of the opinion that (butt)hurt feelings are a better outcome since you prefer petty shade that is too obviously aimed at a specific RP and specific group of GM’s over a good conversation to talk things out - solely because petty shade = better output than confrontation.

Actually, not. You can ask any of the players on my RPs and be quite certain that they'll tell you that I don't shy away from calling them idiots and other stuff if need be.

I mean, I burned my quota of RPs to the ground because of my way of saying everything that comes to my mind when I'm past my point of tolerance.

Don't believe me, scour my threads and you'll see lots of ugly arguments there. Everyone on War of the Tree knows that I loathe them for taking my enjoyment of the RP because of their stupidity and lack of reading skills. The only reason why I don't call names is because I find it kinda tasteless.

As for the whole 'people on the outside bitching' thing, I'm honestly neutral. If it were any sort of minor thing that prompted it I'd be wholly against it, but forcing your own ideas onto a player and essentially trying to control their character is not an okay thing. People shouldn't just keep quiet about that.

Again, people should’ve stopped pussyfooting around and aired their grievances [as a collective group] to the GMs in the first place — or I don’t know, not have gotten me involved in the first place.

You consider that an attack on Raddum’s person when I’ve literally explained why I find what he wrote distasteful? Where is the attack on the person?

You... missed the point, huh? I said 'attack the stance not the person' because you were:

1: Throwing shade at raddum without directly confronting him, like you're bitching about
2: Not at all contributing anything to his bitch and instead bitching about his behaviour

It doesn't add much to the conversation if you ask me. I still stand by the claim that, as a standalone post without context (like I don't have) there's nothing egrigious about it and you and fabricant commenting on it only served to draw my attention to it. If anything, you're making this a bigger deal than it is.

And, now, for attacking your argument:

Bitch thread exists for venting shit we're put up with. It's a public shoutbox to out our frustrations. At some point, those *will* be about an individual and their behaviour. Making your frustrations known to the world seems reasonable in that case. I, myself, have vented about anonymous individuals a multitude of times, both after and before starting drama with them, because I didn't want to drag out or start a conflict. What is wrong about using a thread for it's intended purpose? If anything, you complaining about throwing shade is making this situation- whatever it is- way more complex and big of a deal than it needs to be. I don't have the first clue what happened in the status bar, but whatever it is, can we vent about it without making this into an argument? Take it to PM or discord or smth. Idk.

@Ammokkx

Aren't you dragging out a conflict/making a big deal rn bro doe? lmao

As for the whole 'people on the outside bitching' thing, I'm honestly neutral. If it were any sort of minor thing that prompted it I'd be wholly against it, but forcing your own ideas onto a player and essentially trying to control their character is not an okay thing. People shouldn't just keep quiet about that.

I am going to ignore the first part because all I have to say about that is that the whole example you gave is telltale sign of poor GMing. This discussion isn’t about that and I’ll gladly and wholeheartedly agree that you should be and are always free to leave an RP when you think the RP is mismanaged.

But shit like this happens everyday so my question is what the fuck was different this time for shit to literally blow up into the public sphere of RPG, like lmao, you can’t act like this is something that was handled purely internally within the members of the RP. Shit obviously blew up.

And I think we both know that what went differently was how certain people handled the entire situation - which leads into the next point.

You’re talking about this whole thing as if it is a grave violation of human rights that requires people to SPEAK UP TO STOP THE OPPRESSION OF BAD GM’s AGAINST PLAYERS! when in fact it is nowhere near as certain. Like, I’ll say it again, bad GM’s are EVERYWHERE. There is no need to speak out against them in such a way - there is no need to create some fake awareness in the public eye and certainly not by effectively nailing them to the shame pole (or the English equivalent to that Dutch word, I don’t know what to call it).

Next we’ll be saying wir haben es nicht gewüsst when someone says a GM was oppressing players in an RP we might’ve been in.

UwU the plot thiccens

Oof, speaking of "using a thread for its intended purpose," should I quote the bitch that took me too long to think of from further up the page? Or do ya'll want to keep going before a mod inevitably gets involved, lmao. These always end the same exact way.

Sorting out reports and OOC drama. Thread temporarily closed.

Update: Thread likely closed for a few days, at least.

Updated Update: Thread closed. Vent in private.