Who even needs judges. If people aren’t obsessed with winning, they’ll concede for the sake of the story.

Now who wants to GM this shit.

Your problem isn't the competitive aspect. Its that your Arena is bare bones and stale as all hell.

Zero infrastructure. Your answer isn't in yet ANOTHER friggen tournament... God, someone please stop that trend. Its like beating a dead horse around here. Tournaments and Safe Spaces don't build community. Neither does this absurd notion of taking a dive on purpose for the "sake of story" which only cheapens the experience. This is RP Fighting, that's the format. The Arena has been a thing ever since 1997 for Christ sake.

Its super simple, guys.

1: Your ranks mean jack shit. There's no value to those records. Step One is doing a hard reset on all player scores. You want change? It starts there. Next, ACTUALLY HAVE LEGIT RANKS... What you have is just a stupid Leaderboard. What you want to do is have actual established "Ranks" that have requirements for each the higher you go that progressively get more difficult. Back in the community where I started, we had a pretty clear cut system in place.
-E Rank; Entry Level, everyone starts at the bottom.
-D Rank; Acquire 5 Wins using a Martial Archetype Character. (What you would know around here as RM, I believe?)
-C Rank; Acquire 10 Wins using a Tech Archetype Character. (Whether real world technology or sci-fi technology)
-B Rank; Acquire 10 Wins using a Magic Archetype Character. (Anything Fantasy based)
-A Rank; Acquire 20 Wins using a Hybrid Archetype Character (Mix at least 2 of the 3 Basic Archetypes in one character) in ADDITION to completing a Level Up Exam administered by an Arena Mod. (The Level Up Exam is meant to test your Problem Solving Skills, Combat Tactics and how Creative you are)
-S Rank; Granted the Title of "ACER" for completing this challenge, the only requirement necessary is for you to actually defeat a Team of A Ranked Fighters. (3 Person Squad)

There will be a list of pre-made Battlegrounds for each Rank. Players can ONLY participate in the Battlegrounds listed for their Rank or below. A Rank Battlegrounds will include special conditions, environmental hazards, Hostile NPCs that can randomly be controlled by an Arena Mod at any time during the fight along with other potential gimmicks to further encourage creative approach to challenging situations.

IN ADDITION, if you LOSE a fight, your score suffers. Yes, there is a damn good reason for that. It discourages you from simply quitting a fight and provides legitimate risk involved for losing. Once you manage to hit a milestone and Rank up, though, you can't be DROPPED a Rank. Your score also doesn't go into the negatives, it just stays at 0.

2: Create a legitimate RULEBOOK for the Arena that includes all the Rules and explanations for how to actually play the game within an RPF Format. Using said Rulebook will be mandatory for all Ranked Matches and Guild Events.

3: Encourage the formation of "TEAMS" by having a Team Registration thread and hosting Team Events. Give Teams ranks also. This builds community as even weaker players can overcome the odds with proper teamwork. In fact, do MORE Team related stuff. Make it a central focus of the Arena.

4: Introduce Gauntlet Challenges. Another old school concept, basically a mix of PvE and PvP. The Arena Mods will take control of dangers present within a set location for either Solo Players or Teams can enter to test their mettle against whatever crazy challenges the Mods throw at them. Like a legitimate ARMY that said Mods have total control over. (And because its a Gauntlet Challenge, NPCs in this setting are treated as Player Characters, effectively giving the Mods plenty of options to let loose) You can even include a "Raid Boss" at the end with some spiffy reward(s) for the player's character if they manage to complete the challenge.

5: Create a Hall of Fame. Players who hit serious achievements should be honored and shown the proper respect for overcoming legitimate challenges.

RPing and the Arena has always been a time honored tradition for any RP Community. You need to understand what the Arena actually MEANS and the actual flame of passion that continues to burn bright. Its all about our EMOTION, an expression of who YOU are and the true values it symbolizes.
Ahem;

That's what I'm talking about.

Who even needs judges. If people aren’t obsessed with winning, they’ll concede for the sake of the story.

Now who wants to GM this shit.

Don't have the free space in my RP schedule otherwise I'd give it a thought. What about you?

Also as someone who participated in the Arena format for nearly twenty years I can't say I think anything Dias has mentioned are ideas I think are fundamentally good at any level.

Dias has literally given the best proposal

Zero infrastructure. Your answer isn't in yet ANOTHER friggen tournament... God, someone please stop that trend. Its like beating a dead horse around here. Tournaments and Safe Spaces don't build community.

That's where you're wrong. It built my community and it's slowly growing. I just have the wherewithal to capitalize on it and do a lot of the work-load to make things happen.

Also as someone who participated in the Arena format for nearly twenty years I can't say I think anything Dias has mentioned are ideas I think are fundamentally good at any level.

20 years in Arena format and yet between your current account and that Gowi account, you collectively only have 1 fight in your own community's Arena? (A fight that apparently never even finished...) And you've been here collectively 5 years? I didn't know being a spectator counted. =P

If you've been playing in the Arena for 20 years, and you can't see the obvious value to any of the points I made "for an Arena", then something smells kinda fishy to me. If you wanna bring up experience to justify talking shit to someone, at least bring something worthwhile to the table. Or at the very least, have something more recent in said forum you're talking shit in besides an unfinished fight from a year ago.

<Snipped quote by Dias Blade>

That's where you're wrong. It built my community and it's slowly growing. I just have the wherewithal to capitalize on it and do a lot of the work-load to make things happen.

Fair point. But in regards in this place? Your tournament is the only one I know of on here that's actually finished. I'm just saying, people keep trying to suggest running a tournament as if that'll fix this Arena's problem even though that experiment has already been attempted by them. I'm saying what they really need is a legitimate overhaul and start incorporating NEW ideas instead of thinking they already got this thing figured out.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”- Albert Einstein

Fair point. But in regards in this place? Your tournament is the only one I know of on here that's actually finished. I'm just saying, people keep trying to suggest running a tournament as if that'll fix this Arena's problem even though that experiment has already been attempted by them. I'm saying what they really need is a legitimate overhaul and start incorporating NEW ideas instead of thinking they already got this thing figured out.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”- Albert Einstein

I feel you on the rest just that one statement alone was my only gripe, but then as I said to you in discord "who is going to run it?" Usually the idea guys toss about things they want to see but don't make the conscious effort in exerting themselves into making it a reality. Then they pass up on a particular idea that's incredibly similar in nature to their own proposition and some even think winning = toxic.

At this point you just ignore them and move on. Rilla had the right idea: if you want something go do it.

What would make arena more appealing to me would be doing many of the things @Mobius mentioned. Like making a rule book, getting some active mods, and doing something with the ranking system and toxic members. Arena is always going to be a niche group, but I'd be more inclined to try it if it was a bit more regulated. Also, I see people earn victory far more often on their ability to bulldog other members than actually lay down a convincing argument for why "thing X didn't work."

<Snipped quote by Inkarnate>

20 years in Arena format and yet between your current account and that Gowi account, you collectively only have 1 fight in your own community's Arena? (A fight that apparently never even finished...) And you've been here collectively 5 years? I didn't know being a spectator counted. =P

He said he "participated in the arena" format. Clearly it wasn't here.

<Snipped quote by Dias Blade>

He said he "participated in the arena" format. Clearly it wasn't here.

Which means literally nothing. If he's gonna boast about 20 years of playing in the Arena, but has literally nothing to show for it in his own community's Arena forum, then the smart move is to just not even mention it. Literally one of the suggestions I made was that an actual Rulebook be created for the Arena, which he also claimed was "fundamentally not a good idea." And his only reasoning was because 20 years of experience? At that point, yeah, I'm gonna start to question his credibility.

I don't buy into the highschool popularity contest crap.

Which means literally nothing. If he's gonna boast about 20 years of playing in the Arena, but has literally nothing to show for it in his own community's Arena forum, then the smart move is to just not even mention it. Literally one of the suggestions I made was that an actual Rulebook be created for the Arena, which he also claimed was "fundamentally not a good idea." And his only reasoning was because 20 years of experience? At that point, yeah, I'm gonna start to question his credibility.

It is very true that I haven't participated in a meaningful manner in RPG's Arena. But trying to invalidate my perspective because of that is really immature and nonsensical. Also, Dias, all I said was essentially that I disagree with you not that I had any constructive counterpoints. This kind of hostility and condescension is only proof of strengthing the perception of Arena as having a toxic sentiment. If you think "talking shit" is an excuse of being antagonistic then I don't think Arena getting better and becoming more inviting is going to happen. Invalidating an experienced RPer's thoughts is counterproductive to reforming Arena, not that I particularly care personally.

Also, I will amend my point and stating a clear and concise rulebook would be a good idea if the community as a whole could even agree on the approach we want to take.

Dias has literally given the best proposal

Eh. I don't particularly vibe with any of the ideas. I can see the appeal of them (and have seen some of them in process), but fundamentally by my perspective, I don't really think they are good for helping reform RPG's Arena like so many people want to do here. If you want to be more inviting more competitiveness won't really bring in new interested parties.

@Dias Blade You are free to think what you like of Inkarnate. I commented because I don't particularly care for people exploiting the straw man fallacy, as it does nothing for discussion. I should also note that just because I'm willing to point this out I am not agreeing with his assessment of what you said, it does not necessarily mean I share his views.

But I do think most of your ideas won't work because it's just "let's rework and add systems nobody cares about!" or in the case of idea 4 "let's make something that isn't anything like arena to trick people into RPing here!" I think all that really has to happen is that people have to start showing less toxicity to "outsiders" and actually try to make the newby tourney work. The last one was poorly organised, but was a good first step for Arena. A shame nobody followed it up with anything.

You know, nothing is stopping you from doing all of that without the site's support.

Ranking system? Okay. But for those who want to be ranked.
Create a basic rulebook? Okay. But don't force it on people who don't want to use it.
Teams? Let those who want teams to make teams. Make rules for them. But don't force it on people who don't want them.
Gauntlet? Okay. For those who want it.
Hall of Fame? Just make a hall of fame thread.

Creating a forced rulebook is a fundamentally bad idea because then everyone has to conform with someone else's system. It's no longer two people agreeing upon terms; it's two people forced to agree to a third party's terms. Nothing is stopping you from making a rulebook and then encouraging people to use it, or use it yourself even. Don't impose systems on people who don't want to use them. It's like if the tabletop section could only use 5e.

Complaining about infrastructure when you have all the tools you need to build that infrastructure is like dying of thirst because you're too lazy to draw water from a well. Make it rather than saying someone else should. You have the ideas down, all that matters now is execution.

Literally the only thing you'd need would be a single pinned thread. But as Mobius proved, you don't even need that to host a big event.

Put your money where your mouth is, make a league, and prove me wrong. I'll be waiting and I'll be glad if you prove me to be some random uninvited dumbass who doesn't participate in arena.

I'll be honest. I haven't read all the responses, but since when haven't achievements been a good idea? They allot pride and suitable reward as well as gives something to work towards. Newbies should look in the arena and see these achievements and they ought to think, hey, I might want this one or that one. All they have to do next is find another person seeking the same badge and win. And if they lose, try again. A punishment for breaking time limit or just going inactive should be implemented. If you tell your opponent that you're busy and need to postpone, then sure, you'll get some extra time. But if you don't provide any sort of notice, your record is damaged maybe not forever, but for the rest of the season. However long that may be.

As for the safe space, I don't think it's too much to ask for the judge or opponent to point out what went wrong in your post then suggest a method of correction to be a reference at a later date. Of course, everyone wouldn't do that, but it ought to be encouraged to promote healthy learning.

The arena ought to be just as educational as it is a place to allot honor. Viewing both from the outside ought to be pretty enticing. I know it would be for me.

I've always been pretty decidedly neutral on leaderboards/achievements. I can see the argument for them but I can also see the argument against them. For me personally I think they can build something to work for but for other it can determine a "play to win" mentality which is one of the things we talked about Arena having that outsiders/newcomers don't like.

<Snipped quote by Dias Blade>
It is very true that I haven't participated in a meaningful manner in RPG's Arena. But trying to invalidate my perspective because of that is really immature and nonsensical.

I wasn't invalidating your perspective, I was invalidating your supposed 20 year record for literally saying everything in said list (including a rulebook...) was "fundamentally not a good idea."

And its kinda hard to invalidate your perspective when you aren't actually giving one. "This is bad because because 20 years of playing in the Arena" isn't an argument, its just someone trying too hard to be asinine. =P

Also, Dias, all I said was essentially that I disagree with you not that I had any constructive counterpoints.

That...makes it even worse. So you disagree with something even though you have no actual reasoning for doing so? O_o

This kind of hostility and condescension is only proof of strengthing the perception of Arena as having a toxic sentiment.

Bro, YOU started it. You wanna talk about toxic?
-Dubs every idea someone gives as being "fundamentally bad" because of 20 years of experience. (Condescending)
-Admits after the fact that they didn't actually have any constructive counterpoints. (Provocation)
-Gets called out for their blatant nonsense and then tries to use that to call others toxic despite being toxic himself. (Hypocrisy)

You picked a fight with the wrong person, padre.

If you think "talking shit" is an excuse of being antagonistic then I don't think Arena getting better and becoming more inviting is going to happen.

Talking shit is LITERALLY the act of antagonizing, I don't know why you're writing that as if the two are different things. And with people like you stalking around this place yeah, I'm inclined to agree, although I would apply that same logic to the entire site. Its Elitists like you who ultimately cause the death of communities.

Invalidating an experienced RPer's thoughts is counterproductive to reforming Arena, not that I particularly care personally.

1: Who are you again and why should I care? For all I know your 20 year record is an utter farce, I don't know you just like you don't know me. I had no reason to question your experience up until you pulled that boneheaded stunt.
2: "Invalidating an experienced RPer's thoughts" has to be some sort of joke. If we don't know each other, then why assume that your 20 years of experience alone is all you need to invalidate the ideas I was suggesting? There is a huuuuuuuge difference between disagreeing with someone and being a Troll. And not even a good Troll.
3: You certainly cared enough to defend yourself. Maybe next time don't go sticking your foot in your mouth.

Also, I will amend my point and stating a clear and concise rulebook would be a good idea if the community as a whole could even agree on the approach we want to take.

LOL... Well since you're clearly one of the problems around here, I don't know. You might need to be excluded from the decision making process for the community. I can't see anyone getting anything accomplished what with you just randomly disagreeing with shit for no actual reason. I hope you aren't a staffer, that doesn't sound like the sort of admitted behavior befitting of a Forum Mod. And if you are then perhaps it would behoove someone to re-evaluate that decision.

Eh. I don't particularly vibe with any of the ideas. I can see the appeal of them (and have seen some of them in process), but fundamentally by my perspective, I don't really think they are good for helping reform RPG's Arena like so many people want to do here. If you want to be more inviting more competitiveness won't really bring in new interested parties.

Facts over Feelings, chief.

Maybe if you actually bothered to read what I had wrote (Which you clearly didn't) you would have seen the stuff about Teams and Gauntlet Challenges, both of which focus more on teamwork, being more inclusive of different kinds of players like those who prefer to play more supportive roles to aid allies and building up the community as a whole to establish more interpersonal relationships with others. Again, another reason I find myself questioning your experience, I mean this is basic shit I've suggested. How in the hell do you claim to be around that long and yet don't know this? Are you kidding me?

The only explanations I can personally come to are either A) you're lying about yourself or B) you spent all that time in a bubble and never actually expanded your horizons. (Ahem; "Bazinga~")

But I do think most of your ideas won't work because it's just "let's rework and add systems nobody cares about!"

Who is this "nobody" you speak of? Making the assumption that "nobody cares" has no supporting evidence to back it up. How does that facilitate a rational discussion with meaningful debate?

I disputed the notion of holding yet ANOTHER tournament being the magical solution to the raised problem concerning this Arena. I provided not only an argument but also a list of solutions, further backing my argument.

So far, the only counter arguments I received have been "these ideas are fundamentally bad because I say so" and now "nobody cares!"

And this is while I'm hearing those on that side of the fence claiming OTHERS are the problem, that OTHERS are the ones who are toxic and uninviting. Let's add some more perspective here, I am NOT from RPGuild. This is not my community. This is not my forum. I am exactly the "outsider" demographic you guys are talking about. I'm fresh blood around here. So the question becomes, how do YOU get new faces like ME to stick around and be active in this place?

in the case of idea 4 "let's make something that isn't anything like arena to trick people into RPing here!"

Who decided Gauntlet Challenges weren't an Arena thing? C'mon guys... -_-

The Arena is RP Fighting. Did you think that only applies to one particular kind of combat format?
No, of course not.
-Sparring
-Dueling
-2vs2 (Round Robin or Tag Team)
-Team vs Team (Round Robin or Elimination)
-Free For All
-Skirmish (Clan vs Clan, Neutral Setting)
-Survival (Fight until you drop)
-Time Attack (Complete Objective in "X" number of posts)
-Gauntlet (Players vs Mods)
-Tournaments

Literally, its everything and anything related to the FIGHTING aspects in RPing. That's why I also said the notion that the Arena needs to be "less competitive" is absurd when that's what the Arena exists for.

I think all that really has to happen is that people have to start showing less toxicity to "outsiders" and actually try to make the newby tourney work.

OR you try offering them some actual CULTURE and give folks incentive to be more involved and want to spend their time here? Tournaments are something you do when you have an active community. You don't. You have a skeleton that hardly even resembles a forum since its lacking basic things like a Rulebook and a broken Leaderboard that has no real meaning other than stroking the ego of some while shaming others.

Rankings exist to serve as something to strive for. They are milestones. Its something someone can achieve and feel good about. Someone just hit B Rank? WHOO! Good job, mate. That's a sign of legitimate progress. It builds self-confidence, its less about competition and more about personal improvement. You don't get that with this leaderboard nonsense, that's more likely to intimidate newcomers and discourage them from participating because they don't want a negative score.

Teams are another thing. You're new to the Arena? Consider hooking up with a group of more seasoned players. Not only does that give the older folks something to do (You know, training the next generation, which a lot of folks in my generation obviously dropped the ball on... -_- ), but it also gets the newcomers involved and ENGAGED. Social Engagement is one of the key factors to Community growth as it stimulates our brains with Serotonin.

You know, nothing is stopping you from doing all of that without the site's support.

Complaining about infrastructure when you have all the tools you need to build that infrastructure is like dying of thirst because you're too lazy to draw water from a well.

....ITS YOUR FUCKING FORUM! ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?
Accusing others of being lazy while then expecting them to do the god damn work for you. Unbelievable. You're here having a public discussion about what kind of ideas can be used to increase activity and bring in more outsiders. I weigh in on said public discussion. No, no. Its not MY job. RPGuild has Mods/Admins. This isn't fucking Walmart or Target where the Team Leaders reap the benefits of the unappreciated workers who bust their asses to make the boss look good. To you, I'm the fucking customer giving feedback on the company. If people wanna just disregard said feedback for bullshit reasons (or no reasons at all) then oh wellz, guess that's even less reason for anyone to stick around this place. But don't sit there and try playing that kind of shit show with me.

Tell you what, I'll cut a deal with ya. Pay me. You wanna hire my services? Cool beans, I need the money. Make me a Mod too while you're at it, get a title to go with my payment. That's the only thing you have to offer me, you've done a horrible job of motivating me to wanna put in the time and effort of my own accord.

uninvited dumbass who doesn't participate in arena.

LOL! But I'm the toxic one. Hokay~

I wasn't invalidating your perspective, I was invalidating your supposed 20 year record

Same difference. And it isn't supposed. It's a fact.

So you disagree with something even though you have no actual reasoning for doing so?

No, I disagree with something and didn't want to elaborate at that given time. I have reasoning, but based on your comments our perspective is very different on the issue.

You picked a fight with the wrong person, padre.

Discussion is not a fight, “padre”. This is a community thread discussing Arena and by the current measured topic – how to improve it. None of us have to agree with all of the ideas presented, but acting like this a little arena bout/fight is the definition of toxic. Your perceived notion of condescension and provocative implies you are upset over the phrasing so I suggest you take a step back and breathe. Stating “in my experience” is not condescension, it is just contextual wording to explain that I am not just some guy who has no knowledge of how arena forums work.

Talking shit is LITERALLY the act of antagonizing, I don't know why you're writing that as if the two are different things. And with people like you stalking around this place yeah, I'm inclined to agree, although I would apply that same logic to the entire site. Its Elitists like you who ultimately cause the death of communities.

I'm not the one here who is trying to dictate extreme revisions of the leaderboards among other things, mate. There is nothing elitist about thinking an idea just isn't viable or fundamentally worthwhile. But sure, let's just resort to ad hominem and similar rhetoric. That always works well, right?

Facts over Feelings, chief.

Pot meet Kettle. You were and are the one getting upset over phrasing.

~Bazinga.

Let's add some more perspective here, I am NOT from RPGuild. This is not my community. This is not my forum. I am exactly the "outsider" demographic you guys are talking about.

No, we're not talking about people from offsite who had an arena culture and joined... another arena culture. We're talking about people who have interest to give Arena a try if it had a different approach to things. We're talking about people who either stepped away from it, have no direct affiliation with it, and so forth. You are not an outsider in the sense of the conversation. But I think you've obviously made your "point" here. Not sure what productive dialogue can be made with someone who is accusing others and is acting combative. You do you, fam. Nobody is going to pay you or promote you. I hope whatever fun you have in the arena is yours, but I definitely don't think anything we believe is compatible.

Considering I’m not a regular my opinion is ehh. Dias again is right, so is Deme. The area is a competitive scene, it should live and die by that. Rules/Guides don’t hurt, even if they are ever changing. Story elements can still can be in a competitive scene, I mean they always should be. Everyone here seems to have been doing rp longer than me, although my decade in the game has helped me and friends craft one of the best themed based anime rps out there right now. It’s structured and has rules, many of the fundamentals that Dias mentioned.

Feel like y’all making this harder than it needs to be, literally just need a hard reset on your arena, give It tiered rules, rebalance the rankings system, allow for story filled events and easy. It’s really not that hard, idk if this is a foreign concept to y’all or what. Cause reading through all this again...I question what the fuck y’all even debating on. The arena sucks and everyone is to blame cause you only wanted to fix it bow that it’s on it’s last leg. So everyone is exploding now when this place really could have been stable from the jump. I’m pretty sure if y’all work together to establish rules and structure, along with other shit y’all could literally have this done. Crazy how so many are willing to complain about it here and I have yet to see them post in the area in months. Being apart of the arena when it was booming with activity means nothing to me, but sticking through the shit it’s in now is a respectful grind. Doc Doctor may be the guy y’all want just because he is active.

Crazy how so many are willing to complain about it here and I have yet to see them post in the area in months. Being apart of the arena when it was booming with activity means nothing to me, but sticking through the shit it’s in now is a respectful grind.

Perhaps there's multiple reasons Arena is in a decline?

A lot of the “old blood” by my measure have either retired from writing or simply stopped posting in arena—moving onward to story-based RP's in Casual and Advanced. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the people who “stuck it through” if those people are the ones helping determine the state it is currently in. I'm of the mind that Arena needs some thematic changes, not the same ones Dias is proposing, but ones that will actually invite more people like @Silver Carrot and others to actually want to participate in the forum at large. People who aren't veteran Arena RP's from other sites. You want to be welcoming and looking forward, and well the “competitive-versus-collaborative” obviously hasn't worked very well.

I'm not omnipotent, I don't know the exact best approach. I just know where we're at now and I know the RPG community well enough to take an educated guess at what approaches would just create Arena to be more insular and uninviting. Arena doesn't have to be "im gonna kick yer ass m8". Arena can be "let's write a fun match togehter". I've seen it happen and I believe in it. But it's going to take people to want to post and those who are still here not to have a "well you weren't here before so your opinion doesn't matter, get out bitch". If the consensus among the Arena regs don't want to figure out a way to get new blood interested and feel welcomed, then well, maybe Arena should die. Just my two cents.

Alright, let's reel it back in, make points clear and concise, and try not to be toxic.