[OOC] Bleach: Endless Abyss (Open)

[Ciphra]

@Zero Hex Okay, fair enough, but again there are more than one way to go about using just a sword, as mentioned Kenpachi was fuck you overpowered motherfucker, do something else, obviously. As for the Quincy thing, again I'd want it pointed out where the Quincies were annihilated in this universe, because obviously this isn't cannon, so it stands to reason taht might not have happened.

[Zero Hex]

Well yeah, there's plenty of ways of using a sword. Moreso with western longswords than katanas which are highly specialized for slashing, but anyway. Yeah, the idea is to stick to the most basic usage, actual swordsmanship. You have to admit that's rare for Bleach, where even Kenpachi who had no outlandish sword power for a good while still got away with swinging it around like a killstick because of his power. My character requires appropiate stance, footwork, technique, he needs to strike well and mind his guard or risk dying.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say about the quincies. Well, them being around only makes it more likely to actually get a specimen to examine now, doesn't it? As they would still be made with much more frequency and likely far less secrecy than the guerrilla type setup the Wandenreich set up for themselves or Uryu's old man just hanging out on Earth.

[Axel]

@Zero Hex

"Okay so, considering you haven't actually responded to much of anything, and I'm trying to work with you here seeing I've pointed out a myriad of shortcomings and heavy disadvantages my character is subjected to as well as provided justification for powers you thought lacked ground to stand on based on thematic, story, personality and even real life examples of similar skills:"

Let's get one thing straight, you're not trying to work with me nor is this some type of debate. I reviewed your char, and re-reviewed it after hearing your rebuttal before giving my final verdict. With that said, I'm not going to go back and forward with you on this matter. Either do as I instructed or don't bother getting accepted at all, it's simple as that. This is non-negotiable.

"How do you suggest balancing out a man whose thing is being a skilled actual swordsman with the low key powerset of "can sword real good despite being unable to powerblast", without being immediately rendered moot by the people summoning reiryoku-stealing, crushing bodies of water, creating poisonous clouds and a poison-on-touch armor, summoning and controlling magical shadows etc, all of them armed with a magical weapon as well, often with a higher level of proficiency in other skills to boot over my extremely overspecialized guy. Should I just scrap it and just have a samey powerset? Let go of an actual gimmick in favor of regular lieutenant levels of power?"

I thought the point of making an underpowered char was to be underpowered? You chose to make your character that way so you can't get mad cause of the competition you have to face because of it. If I put a new game on the hardest difficulty without having any experience beforehand then I must endure the end result, same thing with your char. This isn't Burger King. Either your char is going to be strong or he isn't, you can't have the best of both worlds...or maybe you can? Awhile ago for a story I made, I created the most underpowered naruto character that turned out pretty well. He wasn't naturally strong nor could he really compete with anyone except for those no named npcs. Despite that, he managed to beat some of the strongest people with very unorthodoxed tactics(And I'm the type of person who won't even hesitate to kill my main char in order to make it realistic). What I'm saying is that you can make anything work if you're creative enough but if you can't think of anything other than similar stuff then maybe you should broaden your horizons a little more. Also, like I mentioned, you can always ask me or one of the gms for help and we can try to provide some innovative stuff for you char.

Now I'm going to catch some zzzz's cause I have a Final in the morning.

[Oblivion666]

So how bout them mets?

[KabenSaal]

Woo! Go Axel, being a scary boss and shit!

[Brink]

I'll wait till Yvain posts my Captain, I'll probably be doing something with him/her to begin with.

[malmshodes]

Sorry for the meh post ^^; ended up being more busy today than I thought but with it, the IC is finally open and everyone with a Captain CS is free to post ^.^ even if your zanpakuto has not been accepted, we just ask to refrain from using it in battle/spars until it is accepted.

@Phobos

So then I can post then? I mean, other than the Zanpakuto needing work, my captain is okay to go? Just making sure ^.^;

[yoshua171]

I'm specifically trying to avoid pulling a Kenpachi because he's cool and already established, I'd rather try my own take on a similar character. Kenpachi is naturally ridiculously powerful, he can hand captain level fighters their ass without release and by holding back to boot. Meanwhile the idea behind my guy is that if he underperforms he's probably dead because he just isn't that gifted with reiryoku and reiatsu, rather than faceroll on power alone he has to survive on skill.

He'd always walking a razor's edge, since reiatsu also essentially translates to stamina and defensive power. Rather than simply overpower abilities as Kenpachi would do, he has trained and developed for hundreds of years to avoid the type of situation where he'd be rendered completely useless and he still carries plenty of weaknesses and limitations inherent to him. The entire point is to avoid Bleach's obsession with powerlevels and aura size more or less defining who wins and who doesn't by having a character who has, through literal centuries, worked his one specialized skill to a level where it can at least partially compensate and pull him forward in life and put him into a station he would not have attained by birth alone.

@Zero Hex

@Axel

Interesting that naruto came up, and since it did I have something else to add. While I fall into the same category as Ganryu--meaning I could very likely severely limit my character, focusing on a very small skillset with little variety/range, and still get by--I'd like to note that I've done something very similar to what Axel just mentioned in Naruto.

Except, I did it with someone who was basically, like your character just a swordsman. The only caveat I added was somewhat similar to what you're doing, but with limitations. He had a sword style that trained the user, through meditation, breathing techniques, and very very precise control of the body and the blade, to be capable of outright cutting through most chakra-based things as if they were butter. The extent of his and his clan's skill in the art (Known as Shizukana-ryuu-ji no[Style of the Tranquil Path]) allowed them to fight on par with essentially any other naruto character, despite having no ranged skills, only naruto-levels of enhanced physicality, and a sword. It was all about the things you mentioned, stance, footwork, as well as being able to strike well and accurately position himself in relation to his opponent.

The only "jutsu," I ended up giving him were basically as follows:

A technique that created a sheath from chakra, allowing him to use iaido strikes after having already technically sheathed his blade.

A technique that surrounded his blade with chakra, making it an omnidirectional cutting tool.

You know what though, I added those after having already used him against people who were stronger and faster than him. Against people whose characters possessed elemental jutsu and even a bit of range. One or two who even had genjutsu, and guess what, he still not only held his own, but challenged and beat at least the latter two. The one with genjutsu I never got to finish the fight with, but I imagine he'd have done very well despite his disadvantages.

I didn't have to give him immunity to poison, to any element, or to environmental effects. All I had to do was give him swordsmanship and a sharp mind, and it succeeded.

So I agree with @Ciphra, @Ganryu, and @Axel in that you could run what Axel is calling an "underpowered," character and still be very successful, even at lieutenant level. You could do it with essentially the same skillset you gave him. You can even do it with a zanpakuto with no abilities if you've got enough know-how and RP combat skill.

If you did want his zanpakuto to have abilities though, I, as well as Axel, would love to help. I've done it for many of my friends and helped some people in previous Bleach and Naruto RPs I've been in and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it. So yeah, just my two cents.

Take it as you will.

[KabenSaal]

'Can't use the many powers related to sheer reiatsu volume, lacks the wide scale applications and highly destructive abilities of many other zanpakuto, can't do Hakuda barrages, can't spam Hoho afterimages or engage in a long distance shupo chase, and who is armed with one of the most basic of weapons'

Wow, just discribed Mirja to a T.

[Zero Hex]

Let's get one thing straight, you're not trying to work with me nor is this some type of debate. I reviewed your char, and re-reviewed it after hearing your rebuttal before giving my final verdict. With that said, I'm not going to go back and forward with you on this matter. Either do as I instructed or don't bother getting accepted at all, it's simple as that. This is non-negotiable.

@Axel

I am trying to work with you, you're just not trying to work with me. Rather than provide the assistance you've offered you're just telling me to do as you say. You're free to, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying to work with you.

I thought the point of making an underpowered char was to be underpowered? You chose to make your character that way so you can't get mad cause of the competition you have to face because of it. If I put a new game on the hardest difficulty without having any experience beforehand then I must endure the end result, same thing with your char. This isn't Burger King. Either your char is going to be strong or he isn't, you can't have the best of both worlds...or maybe you can? Awhile ago for a story I made, I created the most underpowered naruto character that turned out pretty well. He wasn't naturally strong nor could he really compete with anyone except for those no named npcs. Despite that, he managed to beat some of the strongest people with very unorthodoxed tactics(And I'm the type of person who won't even hesitate to kill my main char in order to make it realistic). What I'm saying is that you can make anything work if you're creative enough but if you can't think of anything other than similar stuff then maybe you should broaden your horizons a little more. Also, like I mentioned, you can always ask me or one of the gms for help and we can try to provide some innovative stuff for you char.

Now I'm going to catch some zzzz's cause I have a Final in the morning.

@Axel

The point of making my character was not to force me to be underpowered, which would be unfair towards me, but rather to take something that would be seen as such because of how the setting typically operates then make it strong by applying skills and abilities that also mesh thematically with the character's personality and backstory. In Bleach high power translates to rapid spamming of teleports, wide scale devastation, high damage tolerance (higher levels of reiatsu translate to defensive power as well) and outlandish abilities. My character is able to do none of those things other characters of similar rank have for granted.

You continue to not answer the question I've asked in trying to get my character's concept through in a balanced manner, despite offering help in the same post. How do you suggest balancing out a character that is generally outmuscled and out-tanked, can't use the many powers related to sheer reiatsu volume, lacks the wide scale applications and highly destructive abilities of many other zanpakuto, can't do Hakuda barrages, can't spam Hoho afterimages or engage in a long distance shupo chase, and who is armed with one of the most basic of weapons, whose lone active skill is simply "cut harder"?

Also, the difference between making a story all on your lonesome and a game is that while writing a story you can easily skew things in favor of one character or another and not have to work on the constraints imposed by someone else. All the same, setting a videogame on hard difficulty typically does not limit your options, simply makes the opposition steeper. The opposition is steep, hence my want of a character with the ability to ensure his one skill can be applied. Good luck with your final though, for real.

Except, I did it with someone who was basically, like your character just a swordsman. The only caveat I added was somewhat similar to what you're doing, but with limitations. He had a sword style that trained the user, through meditation, breathing techniques, and very very precise control of the body and the blade, to be capable of outright cutting through most chakra-based things as if they were butter. The extent of his and his clan's skill in the art (Known as Shizukana-ryuu-ji no[Style of the Tranquil Path]) allowed them to fight on par with essentially any other naruto character, despite having no ranged skills, only naruto-levels of enhanced physicality, and a sword. It was all about the things you mentioned, stance, footwork, as well as being able to strike well and accurately position himself in relation to his opponent.

I didn't have to give him immunity to poison, to any element, or to environmental effects. All I had to do was give him swordsmanship and a sharp mind, and it succeeded.

So I agree with @Ciphra, @Ganryu, and @Axel in that you could run what Axel is calling an "underpowered," character and still be very successful, even at lieutenant level. You could do it with essentially the same skillset you gave him. You can even do it with a zanpakuto with no abilities if you've got enough know-how and RP combat skill.

If you did want his zanpakuto to have abilities though, I, as well as Axel, would love to help. I've done it for many of my friends and helped some people in previous Bleach and Naruto RPs I've been in and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it. So yeah, just my two cents.

@yoshua171

Alright, so here's a few things. My character is, by virtue of the setting, actually physically weaker than other characters posted. He has "enhanced physicality" in the sense that every shinigami and hollow does to some level above a baseline human, but because levels of reiryoku and reiatsu are so important he is physically outclassed by most every opponent. I've even purposely limited his ability to engage in Hoho as well. I wanted to avoid simply being able to cut through all attacks sent his way, meaning he'd require his other skills to present a fair challenge to opponents that could still outspeed him and outlast him by pelting him with long range attacks. If I'm allowed the ability to cut reiatsu and reishi to such an extent, then I'll take it and nerf down other abilities.

As for running with essentially the same skillset and a sharp mind, the funny thing is that 3 things I actually listed and spent slots on are just further demonstrations of his skillset and a sharp mind and I'm told to get rid of them. Training for danger awareness and for combat readiness, as well as defending against projectiles with a sword are things pretty much every single Bleach character is able to do naturally to some extent and I put a slot towards them because these are the things my character will be focusing on to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Would you rather I not list them and still do them? Still, sure, send some ideas my way whenever you want, would like to see what you come up for the thematic.

'Can't use the many powers related to sheer reiatsu volume, lacks the wide scale applications and highly destructive abilities of many other zanpakuto, can't do Hakuda barrages, can't spam Hoho afterimages or engage in a long distance shupo chase, and who is armed with one of the most basic of weapons'

Wow, just discribed Mirja to a T.

@KabenSaal

I most certainly did not. She neither lists a lesser reiryoku nor reiatsu, in fact she is naturally tougher and stronger than average. As a regular hakuda expert you can most certainly do the type of hand to hand combat Bleach typically engages in, bolstered by your character's superior physicality to boot. Mirja is a master in Hoho as well, meaning that yes, yes she can do afterimages and engage in shunpo contests. Your zanpakuto also most certainly has more applications than being a standard weapon. You can further buff your naturally tough and strong character, granted buffs are the thing I'm trying to do here as well, and you can also force others to fight in a sphere of darkness, blind them with eye-searing shafts of light within it and fire out a Photon Cross Blast, which would be a cool name for a giant robot weapon.

[KabenSaal]

<Snipped quote by Axel>

<Snipped quote by KabenSaal>

I most certainly did not. She neither lists a lesser reiryoku nor reiatsu, in fact she is naturally tougher and stronger than average. As a regular hakuda expert you can most certainly do the type of hand to hand combat Bleach typically engages in, bolstered by your character's superior physicality to boot. Mirja is a master in Hoho as well, meaning that yes, yes she can do afterimages and engage in shunpo contests. Your zanpakuto also most certainly has more applications than being a standard weapon. You can further buff your naturally tough and strong character, granted buffs are the thing I'm trying to do here as well, and you can also force others to fight in a sphere of darkness, blind them with eye-searing shafts of light within it and fire out a Photon Cross Blast, which would be a cool name for a giant robot weapon.

@Zero Hex

Actually, while she is very skilled at Hoho, her incredible weight slows her down considerably. So it's physically impossible for her to create afterimages. And her Zanpaktou can create a light, and shoot Heat Beams, but she rarely, if ever, actually uses it because it doesn't feel natural to her. It was more, what her Shikai can do, rather than what it does do. And she also has Zero Reiatsu, due to the total inability to extrude in any way. So let's break it down.

'Can't use the many powers related to sheer reiatsu volume' Yes, she has zero Reiatsu. 'lacks the wide scale applications and highly destructive abilities of many other zanpakuto' yes, her bubble of darkness is only about eleven foot, and her most destructive technique is basically heat beam cross, which has a very limited hitbox and is pretty dam overt. 'can't do Hakuda barrages' She's pretty slow compared to most Lieutenants. 'can't spam Hoho afterimages or engage in a long distance shupo chase' yes. She's skilled with Hoho's usage, but physically can't built up much speed. 'and who is armed with one of the most basic of weapons' Fists are one of the most basic of weapons. So yes.

I removed the part about being outmuscled, because yea, Mirja has a hell of a lot of muscles. But that's her trick. One trick pony. Punch things.

[yoshua171]

Alright, so the way I understand it is you're taking a relatively average shinigami and wanting to use pure swordsmanship as his primary skillset, if not his only skill.

He's got average reiatsu/reiryoku, so he doesn't have lots of stamina, which means every action ought to be very cost effective.

He isn't more tough than the average shinigami, so taking damage is going to suck, but he'll be able to keep on going either through sheer force of will or through some ability--is what you seem to want.

He has no range, so no sword slashes coming off of his blade. Got it.

No keeping up with people's superior speed via shunpo either.,

So the "build," you're going for is Sharp intellect, Master swordsmanship, Base shinigami physicality, and Expert Hoho(I imagine good footwork, more than the use of shunpo from what you've been saying).

Gotcha.

---

If I wanted that, I'd describe his reiatsu as average, but state it was spread out over a larger distance. Not only would this actually make his presence more faint, but it would also allow him to better detect the movement of other people through the reiatsu allowing him to better track people's actions even without being able to see them. It gives you your 360 degree field of perception (not vision), and something akin to "danger sense," without making it a zanpakuto ability, or sounding more powerful than it is.

(Trust me, I understand your situation well. I posted up Majime and while people seemed to think he was "Captain level," or OP, including yourself, I assure you that if you can close the distance, which is very possible, he's more or less screwed or has to risk hurting himself to properly defend. Putting all of your skill in one area is a risky choice, but still a viable one if done right)

Furthermore, I'd maybe write out a sample or two, exclusively for yourself, of Toshiro in combat, perhaps one fighting a ranged combatant, and one fighting someone up close. You'll get a "feel," for his Fighting Style, which will probably inform you a lot as to how this will work out for you.

Moving on. So you want to not get one shot/totally wrecked by people's various abilities? This is a slightly more difficult issue, as you've brought up, but making yourself basically immune to those abilities, while it does make people have to fight Toshiro with less ranged/elemental/energy-based means, also happens to take away a lot of agency in regards to everyone else's characters--which is why (If I understand Axel properly) you got called out for it by a GM.

What I would do is make his zanpakuto a melee/physical type, with a focus on defense. Maybe it doesn't ramp up the amount of damage he can take, or even create a shield around him, but perhaps it amplifies his sensory abilities, allowing him to better evade such attacks--though doing so will still require exceptional skill and positioning--which is his focus anyways. Conversely, you could say that it makes his body an extension of his blade, rather than his blade an extension of his body. By this I mean he might be able to deflect, parry, and block attacks as if he were a sword. It could also reduce his body's weight and/or allow him to redistribute his center of gravity.

Someone fires Byakurai at him, for example, and he could choose either to slap the flat of his blade against it, deflecting it to the side, or he might use his hand and forearm to strike it and it would cause the same effect that his blade would. Plus, a zanpakuto is typically pretty goddamn durable, so it might not make his own body as durable as someone like Mirja, or Kenpachi Zaraki, for example, but it would very well give him a better chance of defending himself against, not to mention countering, various forms of attack. You could also give him exceptional control over what "little," reiatsu/reiryoku he has, allowing him to perhaps exhale small amounts of spirtual energy or refresh his body with his internal reiryoku, to purge poisons over a set amount of time depending on the effect of the poison and its strength (how fast acting it is).

All of these, while they could be considered exceptional skills, do fall into the realm of the "average shinigami," who happens to be able to use what they have cleverly.

Hopefully some of this helps.

[Vongola_Hasayo]

@Zero Hex I think you should take yoshua's ideas and run with them. The problem is, not only did you have abilities there that despite not wanting to have your own fighting style limited and put at a disadvantage you wanted to limit other's fighting style and put them at a disadvantage. Granted this is the true nature of combat but it's a different case when it's "this ability creates an obstacle that you may or may not be able to overcome" vs "nope it just doesn't affect me GG NOOB". Besides that the other stuff, while I think it is just stuff that results from extensive training and commitment, you don't give any sort of limitations to his combat capabilities. Yes you've mentioned all the stuff about him being average everywhere besides his swordsmanship, but with how you've described his incredible perception, reflexes, timing etc, it just sounds like he counter anything and everything. You use words like "incredible" and "tremendously" but that doesn't give a sense of what that means. Give an example of what that means like, "he can keep up with the movements (not physically, perceptually) of a Captain who is an expert in Hoho but a Captaion who is a master in Hoho is beyond his scope". Without that context it just seems like your saying there are no limits and with no limits to perception, reflexes and timing he's basically untouchable. I don't usually jump in on conversations like this but when it goes on long enough I have give my view point. Hope my explanation helps shed some light on things.

[LokiLeo789]

Walls of text everywhere.

[Vongola_Hasayo]

Walls of text everywhere.

@LokiLeo789

I'd say mine is more of a hedge~

[ProPro]

@LokiLeo789 Let me know if you're ok with where Unagi dictated your lieutenant to be. If you'd rather he be doing something else I'm happy to edit my post.

[LokiLeo789]

@LokiLeo789 Let me know if you're ok with where Unagi dictated your lieutenant to be. If you'd rather he be doing something else I'm happy to edit my post.

@ProPro

Nope, its all good, needed something to do.

[Zobozun]

Good to know everyone is now furiously attempting to undo their earlier powerwank in an attempt to make sure Zerohex can't get in.

Also, just as a side note, how come when I bring up my greivances in the OOC, I get a barrage of "TAKE IT TO PM", "YOU'RE RUINING THE ATMOSPHERE", etc. from you lot, but when someone like Ciphra or Yoshua does, it's apparently fine? Is it because I'm not in the chat? @Phobos, could you help me out here? I thought everyone was settling things over PM now?

Speaking of which, @Ciphra, could I get your skype handle? There's something I'd like to talk to you about directly.

[Vongola_Hasayo]

Good to know everyone is now furiously attempting to undo their earlier powerwank in an attempt to make sure Zerohex can't get in.

Also, just as a side note, how come when I bring up my greivances in the OOC, I get a barrage of "TAKE IT TO PM", "YOU'RE RUINING THE ATMOSPHERE", etc. from you lot, but when someone like Ciphra or Yoshua does, it's apparently fine? Is it because I'm not in the chat? @Phobos, could you help me out here? I thought everyone was settling things over PM now?

Speaking of which, @Ciphra, could I get your skype handle? There's something I'd like to talk to you about directly.

@Zobozun

You started taking apart someone's CS before the GM's gave their word on it and no offence but it did come off as a personal attack. This is us trying to help the GM's help someone with their CS after they've given their notes on the problems.

[Zobozun]

Doesn't sound much like helping.
Sounds more like an attempt to make him to play a different guy entirely. Let the man talk with the GM on his own.