[OOC] The War of the Three

[The 42nd Gecko]

@KoL I do have a question, the goal of the thread is high powered characters clashing in battles, right? I haven't been working counter to some other goal I wasn't aware of?

[Gardevoiran]

@KoL
I had a plan for Abigail that'd keep her aligned with Heaven, don't you worry. Right now I'm gonna keep her out of the game and I'll just have her join during the next fight. Maybe she'll be incredibly strong there.

Also, I'm eager to see how bad the next round of combat is from the ways you've described it.

[TheWendil]

Speaking of Meta-Breaking characters, I've had a concept bumping around in the back of my head of a demon who's built entirely around corrupting machina and using them, aka, the sort of stuff that went down on the Elicitor in Round 1. Would that be too irritatingly meta breaking?

@The 42nd Gecko

Yeah, especially when it comes to Machina technology being ripped off and used by 3rd parties. Since we barred Zac from doing it, because this gimmick is getting annoying, I don't see why a demon would be allowed that,especially when we already have Balrog.

@KoL

This isn't meta-breaking since we specifically said Demons are resilient against Machina. Their whole Schick is corrupting technology; your new character wouldn't be special; they'd only be doing what Demons are supposed to be doing.

[Flamelord]

Still can't get Tatiana's name right :(

[TheWendil]

Still can't get Tatiana's name right :(

@Flamelord

I thought you endorsed the misspelling?

[KoL]

<Snipped quote by The 42nd Gecko>

<Snipped quote by KoL>

This isn't meta-breaking since we specifically said Demons are resilient against Machina. Their whole Schick is corrupting technology; your new character wouldn't be special; they'd only be doing what Demons are supposed to be doing.

@TheWindel

When I think about this, I guess you are right.

@KoL I do have a question, the goal of the thread is high powered characters clashing in battles, right? I haven't been working counter to some other goal I wasn't aware of?

@The 42nd Gecko

That's just about half of it. The constant attempts to subvert the fact that characters from opposing factions should not mingle together (not like this and, certainly, not now), as well as all sorts of complaints about this or that character being useless for reason x or y, despite the fact that we impose about no restriction on character creation, thus whoever is weak, is so by their own choice, voiding their rights to complain about being "useless".

Those are my main points of discontentment.

[The 42nd Gecko]

@KoL

Alright, I would raise the issue of why is "factions not mingling" a thing? Is that particularly important? Can't people be drinking buddies on the side and still murder each other in the face every tuesday? I could see a reason for it if the mingling lead to not fighting each other, but that's not what anyone is proposing. They just want to hang out and roleplay their characters with each other in a situation they otherwise don't get.

In other words, is the mingling irritating to you because it will interfere with the fights, or just because you want everyone to blindly hate each other as part of the mood?

~~

As for the second major point, really? You don't mind if we're as powerful as say, Juno?

*Honest questions, I can totally apply Cydone and Alexi's powers in ways that fit in more with say, Henry or Torag levels of power, or in Juno levels of power. If the latter is desired, I'll do my best to live up to that. Their personalities are also vague/unsettled enough to become Krieg levels "I don't care, let's just wreck stuff", if that's desired.

[TheWendil]

@KoL

Alright, I would raise the issue of why is "factions not mingling" a thing? Is that particularly important? Can't people be drinking buddies on the side and still murder each other in the face every tuesday? I could see a reason for it if the mingling lead to not fighting each other, but that's not what anyone is proposing. They just want to hang out and roleplay their characters with each other in a situation they otherwise don't get.

In other words, is the mingling irritating to you because it will interfere with the fights, or just because you want everyone to blindly hate each other as part of the mood?

@The 42nd Gecko

That's not it. As far as I'm concerned, you can mingle as much as you like. The problem, which is what I assume KoL shares as well, is that you need to make it believable for why your characters are suddenly not killing each other and having drinks. Having an Angel hate all Demons in their backstory and then turn right around to have drinks with Demons is very contradictive, just to use an example. You need to give us reasons why these characters would act this way when the nature of the Nexus is war, war, and more war.

As for the second major point, really? You don't mind if we're as powerful as say, Juno?

*Honest questions, I can totally apply Cydone and Alexi's powers in ways that fit in more with say, Henry or Torag levels of power, or in Juno levels of power. If the latter is desired, I'll do my best to live up to that. Their personalities are also vague/unsettled enough to become Krieg levels "I don't care, let's just wreck stuff", if that's desired.

@The 42nd Gecko

That's something you need to discuss with KoL. Ideally, characters should be a bit below the power of Juno for a maximum power level.

[The 42nd Gecko]

<Snipped quote by The 42nd Gecko>

That's not it. As far as I'm concerned, you can mingle as much as you like. The problem, which is what I assume KoL shares as well, is that you need to make it believable for why your characters are suddenly not killing each other and having drinks. Having an Angel hate all Demons in their backstory and then turn right around to have drinks with Demons is very contradictive, just to use an example. You need to give us reasons why these characters would act this way when the nature of the Nexus is war, war, and more war.

@TheWindel

*COUGH* Angel of the dichotomy between Unity and Betrayal is/was Miyu's concept. Being friends with someone and then stabbing them is EXACTLY Miyu's in character.

Also, the Angel who hate's all Demons, Torag, and vice versa with Sliske, were not invited to the drinking party.

[TheWendil]

*COUGH* Angel of the dichotomy between Unity and Betrayal is/was Miyu's concept. Being friends with someone and then stabbing them is EXACTLY Miyu's in character.

@The 42nd Gecko

You need to state this more clearly before KoL explodes.

[The 42nd Gecko]

@TheWindel Didn't I give you a dissertation on Miyu's character motivations that you passed on?

And forget that, see:

I wanted to establish Unity more strongly among her themes. Remember the upgrade I proposed? Her themes are supposed to be Unity and Betrayal.

@The 42nd Gecko

This was posted in my shadow list with all the GM's as a witness. If only I'm too blame for not making my character strong enough, you guys are the only ones to blame for thinking this proposed action was out of character.

Unity and Betrayal, capitalized and next to each other, even.

[TheWendil]

Didn't I give you a dissertation on Miyu's character motivations that you passed on?

@The 42nd Gecko

People forget all the time. That's starting to become a problem both here and elsewhere. A simple reminder can do wonders.

[TheWendil]

@The 42nd Gecko

So...what's the problem here then?

[The 42nd Gecko]

@TheWindel I'm just trying to find out what the goals of the roleplay are that I was working counter to.

As far as I can see, there are two problems, I am directly involved in.

1. I didn't remind KoL that Miyu, occasionally known as Revolver Ocelot, who betrayed her love interest, and who tried to throw a cross-faction birthday party, has character traits that means she likes making friends even across factions, but will still continue to fight them even after making friends. This made KoL frustrated that I seemed to be acting out of character out of sheer desire to throw wonkey wrenches.

2. I didn't make Miyu strong enough, and that complaining about that is frustrating KoL.

On the subject of that: I had this post in the works in response to your "A simple reminder can do wonders."

@TheWindel Indeed, and I think we should be willing to help each other with mistakes.

Not a one person looked at Miyu when she was being accepted (I went back and checked) and said "Hey, that looks kinda weak compared to captain instant teleport, super strong, super durable, super fast, gravity manipulation, black hole summoning, strong enough to wreck entire armies alone with a single aoe gravity attack, can go super saiyan, and is maybe holding the boundaries of the universe together. You shouldn't be quite that strong, but able to fight on the same battlefield as a meaningful contributor is expected."

If slightly less than Juno was the expected power level, I would have appreciated a reminder of that when I made Miyu. I built my character to the schematics of "I want to have a fun fight with Grafdakka". Back before Grafdakka had the eyes and became a mountain sized behemoth. I expected that there would be a slow build up to people like Juno showing up in every fight, that we would have had plenty of battles to slowly grow powers and develop into unique Demonic/Machina/Angelic assets equivalent to the likes of Juno. I was wrong, and I would have appreciated correction on the matter.

I'd also note, that when I had Miyu block one attack from Ni-Mu, KoL was incredulous for a moment that Miyu should be able to block it. I went with a "Well, yes, it says in my bio I was designed for this, and if I also make it so that it burns the shields out, is that ok?" And the KoL didn't raise any more fuss, so I thought it was just ok after those concessions. There wasn't a "Well, since you need to start boosting your power level, and your bio said you had that power, don't burn the shields out. Just establish that if Ni-Mu splits her focus and launches two attacks in one round, you can block half her attacks as easily as she can launch it." That would have been a very nice, and generous, reminder.

[TheWendil]

1. I didn't remind KoL guys that Miyu, occasionally known as Revolver Ocelot, who betrayed her love interest, and who tried to throw a cross-faction birthday party, has character traits that means she likes making friends even across factions, but will still continue to fight them even after making friends. This made KoL frustrated that I seemed to be acting out of character out of sheer desire to throw wonkey wrenches.

@The 42nd Gecko

This can be easily solved with just a reminder. KoL probably forgot about Miyu intentionally being a traitor. No big problem there.

2. I didn't make Miyu strong enough, and that complaining about that is frustrating KoL.

@The 42nd Gecko

Yes, this is a problem. You don't have to make OP characters of course and we don't require you to. But if you intentionally make a weak character and then complain about them being weak, then yes that's a problem and it is frustrating because the GMs can't do anything about it; you're the one who chose to make them weak after all.

Not a one person looked at Miyu when she was being accepted (I went back and checked) and said "Hey, that looks kinda weak compared to captain instant teleport, super strong, super durable, super fast, gravity manipulation, black hole summoning, strong enough to wreck entire armies alone with a single aoe gravity attack, can go super saiyan, and is maybe holding the boundaries of the universe together. You shouldn't be quite that strong, but able to fight on the same battlefield as a meaningful contributor is expected."

@The 42nd Gecko

I can't really speak for the other GMs, but I was under the assumption that you intentionally made them weak for a more Dark Souls feel. Kind of like Bonesword.

I'd also note, that when I had Miyu block one attack from Ni-Mu, KoL was incredulous for a moment that Miyu should be able to block it. I went with a "Well, yes, it says in my bio I was designed for this, and if I also make it so that it burns the shields out, is that ok?" And the KoL didn't raise any more fuss, so I thought it was just ok after those concessions. There wasn't a "Well, since you need to start boosting your power level, and your bio said you had that power, don't burn the shields out. Just establish that if Ni-Mu splits her focus and launches two attacks in one round, you can block half her attacks as easily as she can launch it." That would have been a very nice, and generous, reminder.

@The 42nd Gecko

This is more a case you need to resolve with KoL because as you've probably noticed, they like to let their emotions do the talking for them and as such, KoL's words do not represent the entirety of the GMs. That's why KoL is a Co-GM. Also consider that we're all humans here. I mean, I'm pretty sure KoL didn't think to even give you that kind of response due to the fact that emotions rule their writing. None of us are perfect here, especially the GMs. We forget alot.

[The 42nd Gecko]

That's just about half of it. The constant attempts to subvert the fact that characters from opposing factions should not mingle together (not like this and, certainly, not now), as well as all sorts of complaints about this or that character being useless for reason x or y, despite the fact that we impose about no restriction on character creation, thus whoever is weak, is so by their own choice, voiding their rights to complain about being "useless".

Those are my main points of discontentment.

@KoL

So, KoL's main points of discontentment, which I would like to address, because I want KoL to feel better, and I think it will make me feel better too.

1. Characters acting out of character.
I think I've cleared it up. It's pretty darn in character for Miyu. I just wasn't getting that point across, because I didn't know that was what you were against with the cross-factional relations. Now that I know your main problem is people acting OOC, and not that cross-faction relations are innately a bad thing, I think we're good. Hell, I've still got Miyu's court strategy if she get's taken to task for fraternizing, back from when she was assumed to be a traitor at Alt Signia, and that could be fun roleplaying.

2. It's my fault for being weak, so I shouldn't complain.
Miyu was just a poorly designed character because I didn't understand, you're correct. I'll go ahead and drop her out of combat so that we don't have to bother with it anymore, and I will use my new characters at the "slightly weaker than Juno" power level, if that is what is expected.

[TheWendil]

@The 42nd Gecko

Yes. These pretty much sum up all of KoL's frustrations in this RP.

[Mega Birb]

Gecko I tagged you for no reason before I edited this.

Okay I go to sleep and stuff happens. WAT.

[The 42nd Gecko]

Yes, this is a problem. You don't have to make OP characters of course and we don't require you to. But if you intentionally make a weak character and then complain about them being weak, then yes that's a problem and it is frustrating because the GMs can't do anything about it; you're the one who chose to make them weak after all.

@TheWindel

It wasn't a problem until Juno started showing up and our challenges, and some of the player base, started racing to catch up to Juno's presence. When I lost to Henry, I was a bit bummed, but Henry was pretty top tier, had a weapon that specifically countered me, and such. I was eager to get back on the horse, upgraded the Daimyo, and wanted round two.

Then Juno showed up, and after I dodged/countered the first attack, she by action said "No, you can't damage me, and you are no longer permitted to dodge, immediately take damage." Ok. Not much I can do about that, but maybe I can hope to not fight Juno.

But then both Henry and Grafdakka started growing (very literally in Grafdakka's case) to try and catch up to Juno so that they could be meaningful in the fight. Henry established his new defense to be so high that Miyu could never hope to scratch him, even when he didn't have the silver eye armor up. Grafdakka grew to the size of a mountain, and my dreams of an awesome mecha fight got crushed as easily as the Daimyo would get crushed underfoot by the new Grafdakka. I felt there was a split growing between people who were growing new powers (there was quite the kerflufle about teleport blocking shenanigans) or establishing their power levels so generally high to be able to compete with Juno, and those who were staying true to their original power levels more in tune with the fighting shown at the Elicitor battle.

When Corrin showed up as a counter to Juno in the next battle, Syphax launched an all or nothing attack, with support from Omega and Tartys, all of whom got had just gotten thunderstones. Corrin immediately responded with "I effortlessly counter all your attacks, and launch my own attacks with them." I'm honestly expecting this to be a contest between Juno and Corrin, where all the other characters limp off when they realize "Your power level is not tall enough to ride this ride." With Juno creating the void path to exit and telling everybody else to take it, and Corrin exclaiming how weak and worthless they are which explains why they were dragged into said meaningless war, I feel like that's what you and KoL intended.

I feel like I made a character who could have had fun, and then the power level required to be more than an audience member went up faster than I was able to compensate for. And, I am frustrated with that. But I'm willing to just table Miyu until enough turns offscreen have passed that she can show up with a more appropriate powerset, while I play with my new characters who can play with the new established base powerlevel.

[Lucius Cypher]

@Mega Birb

Power level and character debates. SNAFU and all that.