[OOC] Convergence: The Restoration

[thewizardguy]

@Raineh Daze

Actually, there are other weapons on the same level of Excalibur that would be able to harm him. And he wouldn't no-sell it, he'd simply take a relatively small amount of damage. You'd need to hit him repeatedly to kill him. This is also because Excalibur is magical, and Magnus has an inherent resistance to all things magical, due to his nature. And he only requires the power of the Warp to survive planet-destroying attacks, nukes are survivable either way.

But yes, Magnus is terrifyingly powerful. Most characters would have a hard time inflicting any real harm. This is one of the reasons I was opposed to bringing him in. However, as I said, I think Gil could defeat him, considering Magnus lacks the combat skills to be a significant threat in melee, and Gil is mostly immune to direct magical attacks.

I would argue that you're thinking of the wrong type of nuke. We've long since surpassed the little things that were dropped on Hiroshima, creating weapons over a thousand times more powerful.

Considering Magnus is composed of the Warp-stuff of Tzeentch, the literally body and soul of a Chaos God, I have no doubt Enkidu would work on him. That would be one of the ways Gilgamesh could win this fight, as in his current state Magnus would be unable to escape from Enkidu if he is trapped within.

[VitaVitaAR]

Er... Excalibur's not entirely relevant to this conversation but it totally bypasses perfect magic resistance. It'd still vaporize you if you have A-rank magic resistance. It's the atomization of every single thing the light washes over, and it's just a blast of prana that magic resistance doesn't really do anything against. It kills an evil Extradimensional God and one-shots the Holy Grail... and in one route of Fate kills Gil himself and totally bypasses any magic resistance. ... Also apparently daemonic saves are negated by magic weapons according to friends who know Warhammer so uh.

In any case, um... if he's really that durable this is ridiculous? Especially since he's kind of shown to not be already since Youmu cut him successfully and Youmu's weapons are strong but not like, top-rank Noble Phantasm level... except maybe stuff like Reflecting Satellite Slash and 200 Yojana in One Slash but those are techniques and not direct functions of the weapons.

If you say he's this durable(if he actually is this durable) I honestly think he never should have been accepted. None of my characters can flat out no-sell anything but the absolute strongest attacks from one of the more powerful characters in the RP. Gilgamesh can't do that. I can't think of any other characters in the RP that can do that. Sure there's some characters who would be at a serious disadvantage against others but um...

[Masterkeun]

Now those concerns are completely reasonable, however this isn't an issue of whether Gil can win the fight. The question is if he can instantly win with a power that takes 0 effort and can instantly kill anyone in the roleplay no matter what they do. No one is implying he can't win if he takes the fight at all seriously. I will say again Gilgamesh or Magnus could easily be the strongest characters in the RP. To say Magnus should be made into pulp because it's more "fair" is completely false. It is only being implied some, not all the weapons may not penetrate armor. Also to specify there is no magic in warhammer 40k

[Rin]

Also to specify there is no magic in warhammer 40k

@Masterkeun

Except there is in Warhammer Fantasy, and the daemons from both settings come from the exact same source.

[Masterkeun]

@Rin ah different timeline arguments. I'd stick with the original source material only argument that we used for vader in the same situation

[Rin]

@MasterkeunIt's not a different timeline thing, though. Both settings are connected by the Warp/Realm of Chaos, and always have been ever since 40k's conception. The link between them seems to wane and strengthen at times, but the fact remains that they both run under the exact same mechanics.

I could drag out my copy of Liber Chaotica right now but I feel like that would be a bit overkill.

[Raineh Daze]

Now those concerns are completely reasonable, however this isn't an issue of whether Gil can win the fight. The question is if he can instantly win with a power that takes 0 effort and can instantly kill anyone in the roleplay no matter what they do. No one is implying he can't win if he takes the fight at all seriously. I will say again Gilgamesh or Magnus could easily be the strongest characters in the RP. To say Magnus should be made into pulp because it's more "fair" is completely false. It is only being implied some, not all the weapons may not penetrate armor. Also to specify there is no magic in warhammer 40k

@Masterkeun

The point of that is that if Magnus was that tough (which seems to not be the case because of rules that apply because you can use Daemons in either setting without changing models) he would be untouchable to almost everyone. Literally so.

[Masterkeun]

<Snipped quote by Masterkeun>

The point of that is that if Magnus was that tough (which seems to not be the case because of rules that apply because you can use Daemons in either setting without changing models) he would be untouchable to almost everyone. Literally so.

@Raineh Daze

Gilgamesh is literally untouchable to everyone but Youmu that I've seen so far in the RP

[Wraithblade6]

I think we all need to fear Youmu. ;)

But seriously, this Magnus clearly has been damaged by things in this rp, but he is indeed durable. I did allow Youmu's sword to cut him, but mostly because I don't know her character or what that particular weapon is capable of. I had to go off what you guys told me and give the weapon due credit. I have to assume at least a few of Gil's weapons could be similar, but certainly not all weapons will stand a chance. Some will.

[Raineh Daze]

I think we all need to fear Youmu. ;)

But seriously, this Magnus clearly has been damaged by things in this rp, but he is indeed durable. I did allow Youmu's sword to cut him, but mostly because I don't know her character or what that particular weapon is capable of. I had to go off what you guys told me and give the weapon due credit. I have to assume at least a few of Gil's weapons could be similar, but certainly not all weapons will stand a chance. Some will.

@Wraithblade6

They all are. It's just the nature of Noble Phantasms: they share Roukanken's ability to hurt ghostly things that would ignore mundane weapons. Otherwise they couldn't hurt Servants (F/SN Gil and Saber excepted) because they don't have physical bodies.

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

Gilgamesh is literally untouchable to everyone but Youmu that I've seen so far in the RP

@Masterkeun

Um... hard to fight isn't quite the same as 'could be stabbed in the face dozens of times by a lightsaber and it would do nothing'.

[Masterkeun]

@Raineh Daze yes I'm sure anyone can dodge the millions of swords that appear directly behind Gilgamesh that he can shoot like a gattling gun from any angle. Now we're just talking invincible DPS vs invincible tank which is a fun debate if the dps doesn't have high magic resistance and nearly unbreakable armor

[Wraithblade6]

Wiz, thoughts on lightsaber and Magnus?

[thewizardguy]

@VitaVitaAR

But Gil's armour survived getting hit by it, apparently. So it's not an absolute destroy-anything-no-matter-what. Just a really powerful attack. Although I'll concede relatively limited knowledge on the subject, as I have only watched Fate/Zero and some of Fate/Stay Knight. As well as several conversations on Gil's powers relative to other entities, which is why I know all his fancy tricks.

Considering Excalibur is not in this roleplay, I move to stop talking about it, as it's power or lack thereof is not relevant. Gilgamesh does not possess it, and Arthuria is not in the roleplay.

@Rin@Masterkeun

'Magic' in Warhammer Fantasy (now Age of Sigmar) is synonymous with Psyker powers in 40K. Both draw from the Warp. As such Psyker powers can legitimately be called 'magic' by the standards of most universes. I would argue that resistance to magic would therefore resist warp-based powers, and effects that solely affect magic use would also apply to psykers.

Magical items do not automatically ignore a Daemon's supernatural defences. Specific magical items designed to fight Daemon sometimes have this effect, such as certain artifacts wielded by the Grey Knights. However, general magic damage is no more effective against Daemon than physical damage. The exception is magic that directly targets the 'soul' or 'mind', which is more effective against Daemon.

If further clarification is necessary I could write up a short piece on the exact nature of Daemon and how they work.

-share Roukanken's ability to hurt ghostly things that would ignore mundane weapons.

@Raineh Daze

A quick clarification.

Daemon are not incorporeal. They are purely physical entities. Their body is solidified warp-stuff, but it fulfills the same general purpose as the bodies of normal mortal creatures. The only difference is that Daemon have no internal organs, and therefore can only be killed by inflicting massive trauma on their physical forms (and certain magics). More powerful Daemon can also alter their form, regenerating from damage far more quickly than most mortal creatures. When enough trauma has been inflicted the Warp stuff no longer holds together, and the Daemon is destroyed, returning to the Warp. The ability to harm incorporeal or ghostly entities does not increase a weapon's ability to inflict harm to a Daemon, with the exception of some specific incorporeal warp entities.

The reason for Magnus' ability to reduce damage impacting him is the fact that his body is magically 'custom made'. It's unbelievably sturdy, far more so than almost any normal physical material. In addition, something akin to a psionic forcefield covers his body. This field vastly decreases damage inflicted to his form, granting him immense resistance.

If you want a weapon that will really cut him up, just use the spear that slices through all magic. This would ignore not only his magical forcefield, but also his armour and his physical form's durability, as all of those are magical.

[thewizardguy]

@Wraithblade6

Lightsabers are able to cut through most anything, but Magnus IS stupidly tough. A lightsaber would be able to cut him, but slowly, and with great effort. It would have to be continually applied and 'pushed through' over the course of several seconds. Similar to attempting to cut a block of mandalorian iron.

Of course, certain Sith and Jedi are able to enhance the power of their Lightsabre, at which point it becomes dependent on the Sith/Jedi in question. For example, a full-power Luke Skywalker could probably slice through Magnus like butter, being the most powerful Jedi in history, assuming we take Legends!Luke.

[Raineh Daze]

A quick clarification.

Daemon are not incorporeal. They are purely physical entities. Their body is solidified warp-stuff, but it fulfills the same general purpose as the bodies of normal mortal creatures. The only difference is that Daemon have no internal organs, and therefore can only be killed by inflicting massive trauma on their physical forms (and certain magics). More powerful Daemon can also alter their form, regenerating from damage far more quickly than most mortal creatures. When enough trauma has been inflicted the Warp stuff no longer holds together, and the Daemon is destroyed, returning to the Warp. The ability to harm incorporeal or ghostly entities does not increase a weapon's ability to inflict harm to a Daemon, with the exception of some specific incorporeal warp entities.

The reason for Magnus' ability to reduce damage impacting him is the fact that his body is magically 'custom made'. It's unbelievably sturdy, far more so than almost any normal physical material. In addition, something akin to a psionic forcefield covers his body. This field vastly decreases damage inflicted to his form, granting him immense resistance.

If you want a weapon that will really cut him up, just use the spear that slices through all magic. This would ignore not only his magical forcefield, but also his armour and his physical form's durability, as all of those are magical.

@thewizardguy

All that basically applies to normal Servants (minus the vulnerability to Gae Dearg), which is why they have an END stat. It's just that they share the same sort of minimal threshold for dealing damage. Point being, none of his weapons are less than the weapon that has already hurt Magnus.

Besides, there's a far better choice if I wanted to be a dick about this and not just get it to the point that Magnus might realise that this isn't a fight to stay and fight out.

[thewizardguy]

@Masterkeun@Raineh Daze@Wraithblade6

Most powerful characters in this roleplay right now:

Gilgamesh, Magnus, Darth Vader. Potentially girl-zilla (depending on the feats used, might be able to rip apart planets with bare hands)

Each of these characters has immense powers. I'd wager any of the first 3 could hold their own against any of the others. Certainly none of them would one-shot the rest. Each of these characters is significantly more powerful than most other characters, and each should be treated as a 'boss monster'. Conflicts involving characters of this level of power will usually consist of 3-1 or 4-1 combats, as most characters lack the power to match them in single combat.

The existence of characters who are more powerful than others is not necessarily bad. It just means those characters should be watched out for more, and will have a larger impact with their presence. Such characters are 'big movers', and other characters will be forced to work together if they want to fight off such characters. The presence of beings far more powerful than the average character changes the dynamic of the gameplay.

If people don't want there to be characters of this power level, then that should be agreed on in discussion with the group. It is possible to change the rp so that all characters are evenly matched, but it should be a group decision, or GM decision (although the GM, as usual, appears to be absent).

As a side note, has anyone noticed that Multiverse rps seem to be plagued with disappearing GMs?

[Masterkeun]

@thewizardguy not the other one I'm in. I've been completely happy with GM involvement so far.

I can defeat Gilgamesh in an instant, but I honestly wanna avoid that outcome at all cost as it would cheapen the narrative.

[Wraithblade6]

As for Youmu's blade, I'm allowing that to be special compared to all other weapons just by chance based on its specific magic. It doesn't justify every other weapon being able to easily cut Maggy. Nonetheless, I will post after work Tonight.

[thewizardguy]

@Wraithblade6
I'd say you should check with the GM if the Phorian mages are just going to follow you. It seems unlikely to me that there are going to be 20 Phorian mages right there, considering nobody else has seen any at all. It seems equally unlikely that they would all follow Magnus, especially considering the attitude the locals hold towards summoning magic and 'demonic' entities.

[Wraithblade6]

@thewizardguy I did have mag spend time making friends, and I don't think our gm has been too involved, unfortunately.