Persistent World

[Holy Soldier]

Persistent World

Purpose

The purpose of this discussion is to talk about possible revision or deletion of the Persistent World section, which has been highly debatable for quite the while. Users unable to have a civil conversation will be reported to forum staff. If you are a user who cannot disagree with another user without without getting offended, angry, or upset, then you will be asked to leave.

Proposed Revision

This is my proposed idea for it seeing as it is already a persistent world. It was mentioned to me that it wasn’t an “open world” really meaning that anyone or anything can participate in the idea, but it’s still persistent. There are many roleplaying games on this site that are multiversal and open to anyone using the “jump-in” option. The Persistent World can easily just be made into an open Multiverse for those kinds of games. Multiverses are self-regulating. Players can create: planets, kingdoms, factions, clans, nations, religions, and gods. There is little worry about there being an “overpowered” entity in the game seeing as every overpowered entity is often rivaled by another. These rivalries are what balance the game and create a natural “light vs dark” (not to literally imply good vs evil – subjective).

Multiverses are open genre meaning you can have sci-fi, fantasy, western, etc. in the universe. Multiverses also have no segregation when it comes to writing ability. Both the Free, Casual, and Advanced writers should be able to write in there without problem. The MV also provides a home for "main characters" characters that writers create and cannot find a RP or seem to be able to make a RP where they will fit.

Of course whether or not people will join any game, idea, or adopt any new feature presented by the Guild is always debatable. But it is a solution as opposed to completely deleting the forum and the work players have already put into it. There are also players who continue to write there and their feelings about it should matter and not be dismissed.

[Meth Quokka]

For clarification, you are allowed to disagree on the OP's argument but don't throw personal insults around. Same goes for the other way around, the OP's opinion is not golden or closed to criticism. Criticise the idea, not the person. I am closely monitoring this thread.

[Ammokkx]

I don't quite see the point of making it a multiverse with jump-in. At that point, it might become a risk that people screw over previous lore by making their own that contradicts other lores. Also, it'd defeat the purpose of making it persistent to begin with. Making something without permanent consequence or interactivity means you may as well start your own RP in free/casual/advanced.

Expanding Horizons is a neat idea, but the Guild doesn't really have the playerbase to support it in a healthy manner. A project like it reminds me a lot of forums dedicated to RPing one specific setting, which often end up failing after a year or two, if they're lucky. There's some exceptions, but those tend to also be incredibly huge, which E.H. isn't.

[mickilennial]

The only revision of the Persistent World forum I would support is the Superhero Sandbox games run by people like @AndyC, @Lord Wraith, and @Nitemare Shape. They tend to have the population for it among other factors. Might just be me, though. I'm not sure if repurposing it as a multiverse thing would be something that interests me in participating in the subforum and I believe outside of a handful of RPs such RPs are a minority in terms of popularity and activity. I don't know, really.

[Dion]

Dead-on-arrival. Don't need it. I'd agree to it under the condition that the entire sub-forum was lowered to the bottom of the forum to below all other roleplaying forums so I don't have to look at that eyesore anymore and the other people can work hard to revive a dead sub-forum that is following the footsteps of the other 3 dead-on-arrival sub-forums.

[mickilennial]

Dead-on-arrival. Don't need it. I'd agree to it under the condition that the entire sub-forum was lowered to the bottom of the forum to below all other roleplaying forums so I don't have to look at that eyesore anymore and the other people can work hard to revive a dead sub-forum that is following the footsteps of the other 3 dead-on-arrival sub-forums.

@Odin

Yeah, it definitely should not be the first thing new users see. Gives the wrong impression, IMO.

[Dion]

<Snipped quote by Odin>
Yeah, it definitely should not be the first thing new users see. Gives the wrong impression, IMO.

@Inkarnate

It's like advertising a company by putting out adverts that state just how little items they've sold.

[Holy Soldier]

I don't quite see the point of making it a multiverse with jump-in. At that point, it might become a risk that people screw over previous lore by making their own that contradicts other lores. Also, it'd defeat the purpose of making it persistent to begin with. Making something without permanent consequence or interactivity means you may as well start your own RP in free/casual/advanced.

@Ammokkx

In a Multiverse, the consequences are dictated by the User. Say for example, “You make this dragon slayer who has slayed even dragon gods.” A player may see this character and get inspired to create a dragon god that gives the dragon slayer a hard time. The arena elements then come into play here. A lot of the conflict is handled between players. While ideas may at times contradict and can be pointed out, “Hey, there’s already a faction with said idea maybe you should join it,” seeing as there are so many Rps that occur already with similar ideas, what makes them unique is that they are all ran differently.

The Multiverse is per interactivity because it exists on the players. I have mentioned two types of people in all RP: the writer and the role player. The writer can create the world, characters, NPCs, and basically carry on with little guidance because they are writers. The role player needs a dungeon master because they can’t write without guidance. The Multiverse often has both types. The leading players are the writers who founded the faction, nation, planet, etc and who are leading that group. The role players will often be under said leader and they get their pseudo-DM guidance in that manner.

But regardless, it was just an idea.

Expanding Horizons is a neat idea, but the Guild doesn't really have the playerbase to support it in a healthy manner. A project like it reminds me a lot of forums dedicated to RPing one specific setting, which often end up failing after a year or two, if they're lucky. There's some exceptions, but those tend to also be incredibly huge, which E.H. isn't.

@Ammokkx

I heard that one of the issues with it was that it wasn't really an Open World because there was a story everyone was required to adopt. By making it an open world that people can just "jump-in," I think it would get more life.

[KoL]

Sincerely, I don't like neither the idea of PW, nor its placement on the front page. The first time I saw that was actually quite a jarring experience, since the design is way too intrusive and gives a clear impression that the Administration favors it above the other sections.

That said, I like the idea of watering down someone else's effort by downgrading it to a Jump-in, free-for-all forum, or outright terminating it w/o their consent, much less.

Every idea has its worth, even the bad ones. What should be done is placing it lower on the page. Nothing else needs to change on how it's handled, I just think that the favoritism implied by that position should be undone. It may even be one of the reasons it doesn't fare well, all things considered, at I know more than one person (myself included) that think that the Persistent Words is a forum for the Moderation and Admin's circle jerk.

[mickilennial]

I heard that one of the issues with it was that it wasn't really an Open World because there was a story everyone was required to adopt. By making it an open world that people can just "jump-in," I think it would get more life.

@Holy Soldier

Sounds a lot like Myraid Reality to me.

[Carlyle]

Dead-on-arrival. Don't need it. I'd agree to it under the condition that the entire sub-forum was lowered to the bottom of the forum to below all other roleplaying forums so I don't have to look at that eyesore anymore and the other people can work hard to revive a dead sub-forum that is following the footsteps of the other 3 dead-on-arrival sub-forums.

@Odin

As Odin said. The PW section might have less trouble if it wasn't so focused on every element/genre, rather than, say, just fantasy or scifi.

[Ammokkx]

<Snipped quote by Ammokkx>

In a Multiverse, the consequences are dictated by the User. Say for example, “You make this dragon slayer who has slayed even dragon gods.” A player may see this character and get inspired to create a dragon god that gives the dragon slayer a hard time. The arena elements then come into play here. A lot of the conflict is handled between players. While ideas may at times contradict and can be pointed out, “Hey, there’s already a faction with said idea maybe you should join it,” seeing as there are so many Rps that occur already with similar ideas, what makes them unique is that they are all ran differently.

The Multiverse is per interactivity because it exists on the players. I have mentioned two types of people in all RP: the writer and the role player. The writer can create the world, characters, NPCs, and basically carry on with little guidance because they are writers. The role player needs a dungeon master because they can’t write without guidance. The Multiverse often has both types. The leading players are the writers who founded the faction, nation, planet, etc and who are leading that group. The role players will often be under said leader and they get their pseudo-DM guidance in that manner.

@Holy Soldier

Is what you're saying not already what it is, though? The moderators review faction proposals and universes so there is no lore contradictions, and at that point GMs are free to do as they wish. It seems like you're arguing for what E.H. already is, as I see it.

But regardless, it was just an idea.

@Holy Soldier

Ideas are not devoid of criticism, keep that in mind. If you propose an idea, I should be able to chime in on it.

I heard that one of the issues with it was that it wasn't really an Open World because there was a story everyone was required to adopt. By making it an open world that people can just "jump-in," I think it would get more life.

@Holy Soldier

At that point, I, again, don't see the point of making it a persistent universe. If you want a standalone story, then you're probably better off making it in casual/advanced/free.

[Todd Howard]

Expanding Horizons was added right after I took an 8 month trip away from Guild. When I came back and saw it, it was certainly not a good sign of what the place had become in my absence. A big, new section on RPG made an old user like me curious, but clicking and looking inside showed me that this persistent world was already on life-support.

As a returning member, not even a new member, I was extremely disappointed and had momentary thoughts of the entire Guild being the same way. Thankfully over the first few weeks of me being back I realized that the rest of the forum was about the same as ever. But now with a big, disappointing stamp that bothers me everytime I visit the main page. It didn't work out, and with a fairly small community like ours (what, 250 people and that's high rolling?) It's not going to work.

At least in my opinion.

[Holy Soldier]

@AmmokkxI was told that it wasn't an open world. But in the Multiverse, there is no one checking CSes. People are allowed to throw whatever they want into the mix. Laws are decided by kingdoms, nations, galactic forces, etc. The Multiverse is a very broad idea and it's self-sustaining. It's a self-sustaining RP that exists for as long as players continue to write in it and it's only as interesting as the players make it.

[ArenaSnow]

Persistent World ideas are tricky things, and in this case, I must disagree again.

One thing that was slightly useful to me in the first place, and part of why I didn't raise a shit on the first suggestion of EH (though I never really supported it, either), is the fact it had structure. Everything was connected and could be connected, there were limits, there was a general thing going on. The suggestion is now literally what exists at the moment, because EH no longer has the structure. All the things you mention could be done with the current structure. While it may come out better if the entire PW forum was rewritten to make a clear indication (if that route was run through), that this is what the people there want.

But even if it is rewritten, I still would not be in favor. Because what you suggest is effectively what exists now, and I fundamentally disagree with a broad, unrestricted multiverse. It serves no purpose. In a sense, the current forums are literally the same thing. If a couple GMs want to link and create a multiverse, they will do that. If they don't want people to interfere with their canon/multiverse, they can, and will do that too. If they want to make a true Persistant World, which is distinct from a multiverse, then the GMs can link their canons. None of that justifies the creation and maintenance of a unique forum.

I would instead consider it viable if the idea was approached with more unity and structure, not only in general rules and "what you do here might affect something elsewhere", but also in genre. A balance should be achieved. Yes, players need flexibility. That's the core of the idea. But it also requires structure and unity, not only in terms of timeline, but also in things like power level and technology (in my opinion and based on how the site works, especially the community base). A specific fantasy PW would make it easier to avoid a fairly average swordsmen being absolutely obliterated by a sci-fi grunt with a gun and heavy armor. It would make more consistency at large, making it easier for plots and characters to connect (in a way, like a roleplay MMO, only with more flexibility). It would allow easier maintenance and judgements as to what is too powerful and what is not, because you can look to fantasy stereotypes to make more balanced decisions when accepting characters and making judgements should a conflict arise (as compared to cowboi supagunslinger vs Archmage of Canterbury or something, and a drama potentially arising from that combination when the two entities meet). Repeat a similar philosophy with modern and sci-fi settings, and in the future, add more if there is enough popular demand. Finally, my main, short term revision idea would be to put the PW section in line with other sections so it does not somehow get standing over all the regular forums despite having an abysmally small fraction of the activity and relevance seen in the three sections below it.

As it is now, and as the idea seems to propose, there's just not enough to bring things together. It becomes clutter that might as well go into the regular sections anyways.

It's not an easy overnight solution, but I think you're more likely to find the answer in structure and a degree of unity, not in making divided verses that don't even need to exist in the same forum.

And as for existing games, they would not have to be deleted. I believe they would work just fine dumped into the casual section, as they're largely independent entities anyways.

In short: Sure, have a multiverse. But it does not need its own forum. Not as it is described, and not as the EH operates right now.

[Ammokkx]

@AmmokkxI was told that it wasn't an open world. But in the Multiverse, there is no one checking CSes. People are allowed to throw whatever they want into the mix. Laws are decided by kingdoms, nations, galactic forces, etc. The Multiverse is a very broad idea and it's self-sustaining. It's a self-sustaining RP that exists for as long as players continue to write in it and it's only as interesting as the players make it.

@Holy Soldier

Well, yes, I get what you're saying, but how is that in any way persistent then? If you do not have to adhere to the rules of the one universe, why bother having it in Expanding Horizon at all? If it's just one large jump-in RP, wouldn't that be better for the free section?

I see Expanding Horizons to be one big fandom RP of a series that does not exist. Making it multiverse seems like it would go against the very premise of the idea- not to mention, the section has people who pitched it in the first place. Would it not be better to ask them directly what they think it needs, if anything?

Sidenote, I agree with the notion of moving it down.

[KoL]

<Snipped quote by Holy Soldier>

At that point, I, again, don't see the point of making it a persistent universe. If you want a standalone story, then you're probably better off making it in casual/advanced/free.

@Ammokkx

Just adding to your point.

If you make it Jump-in, with no quality standards at all, as is implied by the OP, isn't it better to run a Free RP? I mean, the description alone seem to be taken from the description of both the Free Section and Jump-in RPs as far as I understand it.

[mickilennial]

@AmmokkxI was told that it wasn't an open world. But in the Multiverse, there is no one checking CSes. People are allowed to throw whatever they want into the mix. Laws are decided by kingdoms, nations, galactic forces, etc. The Multiverse is a very broad idea and it's self-sustaining. It's a self-sustaining RP that exists for as long as players continue to write in it and it's only as interesting as the players make it.

@Holy Soldier

That just sounds like an absolute mess. It would be like taking the concept of the Free subforum and letting people run wild with no direction or design. I definitely would never post in a subforum like that even if it had a setting or plot hook I was interested in.

[Lady Absinthia]

Will keep this short - Don't think it will work

Would like to see - Nation RP redone to "Developing Universe" Section with multiple sub sections: World, Nation, Other & Checks. Just combine bascially combing the areas of E.H., NRP, and WB and leave it open to a larger versatility. Might actually give a single section the numbers it is looking for to succeed.

Could work if done right, a lot of down sides to it as well. But that's my two cents wrapped up quickly. ~goes back off to her own little universe~

[Todd Howard]

That just sounds like an absolute mess. It would be like taking the concept of the Free subforum and letting people run wild with no direction or design. I definitely would never post in a subforum like that even if it had a setting or plot hook I was interested in.

@Inkarnate

This +1. No rules or restrictions are how you drive people away, too. Sure, it might look convenient to some to jump in; But a lot of people don't even want to look at a mess and try to get involved. It'd be flooded with different levels of writers, godmodding, constant fights out of character and mods being called on the regular, and probably much more.

If I say anarchy like this in an RP I'd only have One Response.