[OOC] Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

[Pepperm1nts]

dat 1910 map doe Get da feck outta hea' with dat. This is 1980, to start. Because modern maps are a rarity here's a few quotes from wikipedia:

Armenians in Turkey have an estimated population of 40,000 (1995) to 70,000. Most are concentrated around Istanbul. The Armenians support their own newspapers and schools. The majority belong to the Armenian Apostolic faith, with smaller numbers of Armenian Catholics and Armenian Evangelicals.

In 1995 there were only between 40,000 to 70,000 Armenians in Turkey, and most of them, according to that quote, were around Istanbul. This means there wouldn't even be that many Armenians left in Eastern Turkey, so they wouldn't be a majority there in PoW like you claim. Another quote:

Until the Armenian Genocide of 1915, most of the Armenian population of Turkey (then the Ottoman Empire) lived in the eastern parts of the country that Armenians call Western Armenia (roughly corresponding to the modern Eastern Anatolia Region).

Armenians, according to that, left Eastern Turkey after the genocide (or were killed).

[Vilageidiotx]

That happens in a world where the Ottoman Empire does not collapse in 1918 and modern Armenia doesn't get split from Turkey by the iron curtain. In a world where Armenia remains part of the Empire and the collapse of European power ends the "Armenian question" for a while, population growth that went into the two million Armenians living in modern Russia would have instead fed into the Ottoman Empire. It's hard to tell, it could go several ways. But the nice thing about "Go several ways" is that you still have options.

[Pepperm1nts]

None of that matters. It is irrelevant. If the genocides still happened, whether or not the Ottomans collapsed, or if the Iron Curtain happened, literally does not matter. Why? Because you are grossly underestimating the death toll of the Armenian genocide. There were 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey in 1914. The genocide began in 1915 and by the end of it over a million people were killed. If the genocide happened, none of what you mentioned matters. You'd still have over a million Armenians dead and their population in Turkey devastated and dispersed. EDIT: Maybe the population growth bit matters but that's not certain. And I don't understand why they would have "fed into the Ottoman Empire". Why not Europe? Why not anywhere else BUT the country that was responsible for the genocide?

[Vilageidiotx]

It would definitely matter, since the point is where Armenians are. If you are an Armenian in 1950 and you want to move to an industrial town to make a decent living, the border decides where that town is going to be. In our world they went across the Soviet Union. In this world, they go to other locations in the Ottoman Empire.

[Pepperm1nts]

In this world, they go to other locations in the Ottoman Empire.

@Vilageidiotx

You don't even know this for certain, though. And it seems like the least likely destination for them given they'd want to get the fuck away from the people responsible for their persecution. They could have ended up anywhere, and more than likely not in Turkey. Hell, maybe they ended up in South America. EDIT: And then we finish this argument in Steam like gentlemen. The verdict: Yeah, there are some things that are a stretch but it's too debatable to agree on anything. Plus it's too late anyway. Please no one continue this shit, I'm too tired for it and I got what I wanted, which was a hesitant 'eh, maybe' from Vilage. He didn't fully budge but I think he almost did and that's good enough for me.

[Byrd Man]

tl;dr Argument: Armenia getting independence was a stretch. Counterargument: Bitch, it might be.

[Chapatrap]

Precipice was never about realism anyway. This is a world where Britain collapsed into anarchy, Tsarist Russia and Ottoman Turkey lasted into the 70's and Poland united with Ukraine for some reason. Its about making it interesting and if the Precipice world isn't damn interesting, then I don't know what is.

[Vilageidiotx]

tl;dr Argument: Armenia getting independence was a stretch. Counterargument: Bitch, it might be.

@Byrd Man

It kind of ended like "It's certainly possible, and more possible than a lot of things that happens in Precipice." IMHO its more believable than the entire Ethiopian faction, than Spain becoming a superpower, and than Germany calling itself Prussia and grabbing a construction worker to be its King. Reality is stranger than fiction, and Armenia was never really that strange. So long as something is economically possible and not baldface stupid or gamey, it works. But we stopped arguing because we both got bored with it a long time ago lol.

[Dinh AaronMk]

In any event Armenia was split between Russia and Turkey to begin with anyways. So there was still a significant Armenian population that Turkey took over again when they invaded Georgia-Armenia in the seventies, which was presumably the home of all the Armenians and Georgians that did not flee, and the sorts of people who want their original borders restored anyways. So then we come back to the original-original argument that happened when this was first an issue on who draws borders and in the end I think we already settled this fucking two years ago. It's over and done and under the bridge, don't burn it to sink it in the water again.

[TheEvanCat]

I see mad jimmies have been rustled. I thought we were all good with this like, three years ago when Armenia started.

[Chapatrap]

Everyone in the diplomacy game needs to confirm themselves. Get to it, you useless bleeders!

[zombieaccount]

I see mad jimmies have been rustled. I thought we were all good with this like, three years ago when Armenia started.

@TheEvanCat

Armenian had outside help from other countries if I recall, which probably justifies any tech gap issues since I don't recall ottomans being known for innovation. Euro tech from Spain probably equals the Ottoman Empire being dead for instance. All in all while it's not like Armenia is getting armed by the stif'ka, Spanish or polish weapons should suffice and I know at the very least Poland-Ukraine has supplied military tech to Armenia.

[Vilageidiotx]

<Snipped quote by TheEvanCat> Armenian had outside help from other countries if I recall, which probably justifies any tech gap issues since I don't recall ottomans being known for innovation. Euro tech from Spain probably equals the Ottoman Empire being dead for instance. All in all while it's not like Armenia is getting armed by the stif'ka, Spanish or polish weapons should suffice and I know at the very least Poland-Ukraine has supplied military tech to Armenia.

@zombieaccount

Poland and Persia were their suppliers, with Ethiopia and China giving them "Advisors". In the end, Ethiopia actually got involved in the war and an Ethiopian Army occupied Palestine. And the Walinzi assassinated the Sultan, though that happened during a time skip.

[Wilted Rose]

I need to stop causing these arguments.

[Pepperm1nts]

Nah, the argument was never about Armenia getting its independence. It's about the ridiculous amount of land it managed to take from Turkey without much of a fight. Land that by population has been majority Turkish since 1915. It used to be Armenian by population but then the genocide happened. They could claim the land theirs based on history but by now it is ethnically Turkish. The way they took the land so easily and continue to be able to stomp all over Turkey is what I have a problem with. And then there's Istanbul and the Greeks to add to how unlikely it is. And I'll add that the argument ended more like "It's a stretch, maybe, but more possible than things like SAC." But let's stop.

[Shyri]

Well, anyone in the Diplomacy game, it's up and running now. We have a little under 48 hours to submit orders, and communicate with each other, so make sure to get your day one moves finished.

[Space Communist]

An argument is happening? And I wasn't the one who started it? Huh. That's a first. Seriously though guys, let's everybody just calm the fuck down.

Well, anyone in the Diplomacy game, it's up and running now. We have a little under 48 hours to submit orders, and communicate with each other, so make sure to get your day one moves finished.

@Shyri

I just tried looking for the game on the site, but I can't find it. I still needs to join :/

[Dinh AaronMk]

Oh @Isotope. Isotope, why don't you confirm if you're staying or leaving?

[Pepperm1nts]

He'll be back when PoW reaches the year 2523 and we can fly spaceships around.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I hear if we call out someone by name then maybe we'll summon them, or something.